:00:13. > :00:17.On tonight's programme: My father is an innocent man - he is gravely
:00:17. > :00:24.ill and one day the truth about this will come out - the words of
:00:24. > :00:29.Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi's son. I want everybody, especially in UK
:00:29. > :00:33.and specific in Scotland to see my dad, how he's doing, how he is so
:00:33. > :00:37.sick. And after Ken Clarke calls the English justice system "broken"
:00:37. > :00:43.with a dreadful record in rehabilitation, Scotland's Auditor
:00:43. > :00:47.General says the same thing about our one - can this ever be fixed?
:00:47. > :00:52.Good evening. The son of the Libyan convicted of the Lockerbie bomber
:00:52. > :00:55.in 1988 has granted the BBC access to his father at their home in
:00:55. > :00:59.Tripoli. Khaled al-Megrahi said he wanted to show the people of
:00:59. > :01:03.Scotland just how ill his father was. Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi was
:01:03. > :01:06.released from his life sentence in Greenock Prison two years ago and
:01:06. > :01:09.sent home to Libya on compassionate grounds by the Scottish Government.
:01:10. > :01:15.It was widely reported at the time that al-Megrahi had a life
:01:15. > :01:20.expectancy of three months. A Middle East editor has been
:01:20. > :01:29.speaking to his son. How is your father? My father is
:01:29. > :01:38.very ill. He's now in deep sleep and he's stopped eating and we try
:01:38. > :01:43.to support him, we sit next to him, we pray to God. And stay as long as
:01:43. > :01:47.he can. How long does he have, do you think? Nobody know how long. If
:01:48. > :01:52.you ask me how long, I will say I don't know, nobody know how long.
:01:52. > :01:57.He eegs lived a long time, hasn't he, since he came -- he's lived a
:01:57. > :02:00.long time, hasn't he, since he came back from Scotland? Yes. Some
:02:01. > :02:06.people say he is not really sick because he live such a long time?
:02:06. > :02:15.We wish like that. Unfortunately, he is too sick. If you see him now
:02:15. > :02:20.and if you compare before and now, you will see his body - he's become
:02:20. > :02:24.very ill and very weak. We hope he can stay as long, we hope he will
:02:24. > :02:30.stay long with us. Has your father always believed he was innocent?
:02:30. > :02:35.Yes, he's believed and we believe that and we know one day everybody
:02:35. > :02:43.will see the truth. What do you think the truth really is? I don't
:02:44. > :02:50.know. I know my father is innocent. And one day the truth will come out.
:02:50. > :02:57.You think the truth will come out in the end? Yes, yes. Do you think
:02:57. > :03:01.he had a fair trial in Scotland? In the Scottish court? I don't know.
:03:01. > :03:06.Do you think the process when he was in court and they twr deciding
:03:06. > :03:14.if he did it, the -- they were deciding if he did it, whether that
:03:14. > :03:19.was a good process? I can't answer that. Why did you decide to allow
:03:19. > :03:25.us in today? I want everybody in the UK, specific in Scotland, to
:03:25. > :03:32.see how my dad is so sick. I seen in news some people say he is not
:03:32. > :03:39.sick and some people say he is not at home and some people say he's
:03:39. > :03:46.run away. I want you to come to see my dad and he can't remove from his
:03:46. > :03:53.room. He stay in his room between his mother and me and my brother
:03:53. > :03:58.and my sister. We want to know the truth as well. We want to know who
:03:58. > :04:05.did this bad thing. You are absolutely convinced your father
:04:05. > :04:14.did not do it? Yes. He didn't. He didn't do it. When you spoke to him,
:04:14. > :04:21.he never said anything other than that? He swear and he say, "When I
:04:21. > :04:29.die, one day the truth will come." We see Our Father is innocent and
:04:29. > :04:33.everybody will see how innocent he is. Khaled al-Megrahi. Now, the
:04:33. > :04:36.revolving door of reoffending in Scotland has produced some
:04:36. > :04:41.staggering figures. More than two- thirds of people sent to prison
:04:41. > :04:47.last year had five or more previous convictions. Breaking this cycle
:04:47. > :04:51.would have major benefits - fewer crimes, fewer victims, fewer cases
:04:51. > :04:57.and far less cost to the public purse. The watchdog suggests that
:04:58. > :05:01.by supporting just one reoffending prisoner into employment would save
:05:01. > :05:05.�940,000 over five years. Over the border, the English Justice
:05:05. > :05:15.Secretary today spoke of a broken prison system with a dreadful
:05:15. > :05:16.
:05:16. > :05:22.record in rehabilitation. Are we in Delays, late decision, ditched
:05:22. > :05:30.cases, when it comes fo justice, they have a price. The cost of our
:05:30. > :05:34.our criminal justice system last year was �857 million. Audit
:05:34. > :05:42.Scotland says �40 million was wasted, �30 million was lost on
:05:42. > :05:47.decisions not to proceed with cases. Money is even lost when courts are
:05:47. > :05:50.not organised. A piece of work in one part of Scott land discovered a
:05:50. > :05:55.third of the people who were due to appear in court were already in
:05:55. > :06:01.prison. That was not known to the court system. So, clearly, that is
:06:01. > :06:06.a source of major inefficiency if that is fabricated across Scotland.
:06:06. > :06:10.There is a cost to the police. Hundreds of officers pace the halls
:06:10. > :06:15.of our courts waiting to give evidence. Many are weighsing their
:06:15. > :06:18.time and money. �16 million has been lost to our police forces.
:06:18. > :06:23.you go into any court house in Scotland you will see there are
:06:23. > :06:27.lots of police officers there. Waiting for trials to go-ahead, not
:06:27. > :06:31.being where they should be, out on the streets. We have a huge issue
:06:31. > :06:36.with officers having to come the lengthth and breadth of the country
:06:36. > :06:41.to get to court. The case are not running. Nothing of their doing. We
:06:41. > :06:45.are doing everything we can to make the cases runment the court system
:06:45. > :06:51.is letting us down. -- the court system is letting us down. The real
:06:51. > :06:58.cost to the taxpayer comes from putting people back in prison.
:06:58. > :07:04.Between 2009 and 2010, 9,37 it 2 people were sent to prison in
:07:04. > :07:12.Scotland. 51% of them had between five and 20 convictions. 11% had
:07:12. > :07:16.between 20 and 30 convictions.% had over 30 convictions. I think, it's
:07:16. > :07:20.one of the most serious problems, quite frankly. Everyone involved in
:07:20. > :07:24.the criminal justice system would recognise this. A very high
:07:24. > :07:33.proportion of the crimes Ando fences are committed by relatively
:07:33. > :07:37.small numbers of people. There are many intervention projects to try
:07:37. > :07:41.to rehabilitate offenders. Once behind bars, well, it may maybe too
:07:41. > :07:46.late for some. This charity works with young people, when all other
:07:46. > :07:53.agencies have failed. They say early intervention is key. If we
:07:53. > :07:57.can create a relationship, and then get them to listen to us, we can
:07:57. > :08:01.then then influence them and get them to think about their behaviour
:08:01. > :08:06.and change their behaviour. The solution has to be within the
:08:06. > :08:10.individual. We know that there are ways we can influence and we can
:08:10. > :08:17.help to provide opportunities for people to start leading a different
:08:18. > :08:22.liech, and punishment alone will -- life. And punishment alone will not
:08:22. > :08:25.do that. Punishment alone does not help people ultimately to change
:08:26. > :08:31.their behaviour. Should we be spotting potential problems at an
:08:31. > :08:35.even earlier stage? Prisons are full of young people who lack basic
:08:36. > :08:42.literacy skills? We could paper the walls with research analysis and
:08:42. > :08:48.reports on this. We have to stop rediscovering the same problems and
:08:48. > :08:52.reinventing old solutions. We have to make sure in communities, in the
:08:52. > :08:57.early age of every child's life they get support, nurturing and
:08:57. > :09:02.stimulation they need. We know an awful lot about how that can be
:09:02. > :09:06.done. Charities talk of hope, of people turning their lives around.
:09:06. > :09:10.Behind our prison walls lie thousands of persistent offenders,
:09:11. > :09:17.some will spend their lives behind bars. That is a costly criminal
:09:17. > :09:21.cycle can no easy solution. We did ask the Justice Secretary, Kenny
:09:21. > :09:23.MacAskill, for an interview this evening, he was unavailable. I'm
:09:23. > :09:28.joined by Tom Baillie, Scotland's Commissioner for Children and Young
:09:28. > :09:35.People and in Dundee the criminologist, Dr Stuart Waiton.
:09:35. > :09:39.Thank you both very much for coming in this evening. Why do you think
:09:39. > :09:44.Scotland that rehabilitation in general doesn't seem to be working?
:09:44. > :09:48.It's probably not the aen answer you are looking for. Fundamentally,
:09:48. > :09:52.society doesn't believe it's possible any more. I think it was
:09:52. > :09:58.interesting, just listening to the comments made at the end there,
:09:58. > :10:03.about early intervention. It's an area I'm very interested in because
:10:03. > :10:08.now what is seen as the silver bullet for everything is early
:10:08. > :10:12.intervention. What that suggests, early intervention, is between zero
:10:12. > :10:16.and three years old. It suggest that is they, basically, everyone
:10:16. > :10:19.in social policy now believes that, once you are three years old, if
:10:19. > :10:23.you haven't had the correct parenting, the correct this and the
:10:23. > :10:27.correct that, basically, you are finished. Which is a worry. I
:10:28. > :10:32.genuinely think, the collapse of belief in rehabilitation is a
:10:32. > :10:37.reflection of people who run society themselves who have lost
:10:37. > :10:43.any genuine sense of how you can connect with, either young trouble
:10:43. > :10:49.makers, or criminals. Whether that is at a moral level or social or
:10:49. > :10:52.political level. For me, the collapse of a sense of, as I say,
:10:52. > :10:57.rehabilitation, is a direct reflection of the loss of purpose
:10:57. > :11:00.amongst people running society. do you actually believe then that
:11:00. > :11:05.early intervention doesn't work? Do you think we are not giving it the
:11:05. > :11:09.sort of attention that it needs? If you are saying it's an attitudal
:11:09. > :11:15.problem among politicians do you accept that early intervention does
:11:15. > :11:19.work? No, I don't. I think it's a massive fetishised area that is
:11:19. > :11:24.seen as a silver bullet for all society's problems. In 20 years
:11:24. > :11:30.time society will still have the same problems. Tam Baillie that
:11:30. > :11:35.would contradict what you feel is a substantial body of evidence?
:11:35. > :11:39.have to separate early intervention from early years. You heard about
:11:39. > :11:43.putting support systems around young people. Young people where we
:11:43. > :11:48.can prevent them going into custody. In fact, there has been some
:11:48. > :11:53.reduction in our young offenders custody figures, partly because we
:11:53. > :11:57.are getting some of those support systems, some of those whole system
:11:57. > :12:03.approaches right, so will is right support for young people. Access to
:12:03. > :12:07.employment. Access to hope, in terms of their place in society.
:12:07. > :12:12.That is accept frait early years. The evidence is that, in the early
:12:12. > :12:16.years, that is from pregnancy through to three years, we can do a
:12:16. > :12:21.lot better, in terms of the nurturing of our children, in terms
:12:21. > :12:25.of attachment of our children. That would heighten the chances of those
:12:25. > :12:30.children becoming well adjusted adults. The evidence is strong on
:12:30. > :12:34.that. You spoke this evening about the fracturing of services for 16
:12:34. > :12:40.to 17-year-olds. Is that another thing we have to look at here?
:12:40. > :12:44.have to deal with the here and now. We have young people who are coming,
:12:44. > :12:49.for instance, from care, leaving care too early, and finding they
:12:49. > :12:57.end up with prison careers. We have to do something about that. We also,
:12:57. > :13:01.I know if you take an approach that looks at not concentrating on minor
:13:01. > :13:05.offences, but those with serious and persistent offending, those are
:13:05. > :13:10.the young people we can build the systems around and prevent the use
:13:10. > :13:14.of custody. Let me ask you something briefly, if you don't
:13:14. > :13:18.mind. The perceived political wisdom is that the general public
:13:19. > :13:23.are unsympathetic to money being put into rehabilitation in prisons.
:13:23. > :13:29.Is that true about research done about public opinions or is that
:13:29. > :13:38.what the tabloid writers tell us? Partly true. The main thing is that
:13:38. > :13:42.the public are frustrated about what they see as politicians and
:13:42. > :13:46.social worker-types being soft on crime. Especially, in terms of
:13:46. > :13:50.prison sentences. But, actually, when you push people to say, "do
:13:51. > :13:57.you think you should give them support for work and to give them
:13:57. > :14:02.something positive to do, so on and so forth", people generally are not
:14:02. > :14:06.completely dogmattic about it. It's not as straight-forward as that may
:14:06. > :14:10.seem. Right. Yes. Do come back. Nowadays, it's even more important
:14:10. > :14:15.that we look at what works. We know that prisons aren't working. It's
:14:15. > :14:18.appropriate that Audit Scotland are producing a report to begs
:14:18. > :14:26.questions about how we are dealing with our offending population. For
:14:26. > :14:30.my money, one of the things we have to do to get brave enough to
:14:31. > :14:36.develop those early ages as well as looking at how we support the here
:14:36. > :14:39.and now, the young people coming into the system who we can prevent
:14:40. > :14:44.having careers, prison careers, long-term prison careers, which
:14:44. > :14:49.cost the tax payary lot of money. Put the money and expertise into
:14:49. > :14:55.that now? You need to do both. There isn't a silver bullet. You
:14:55. > :15:00.have to do it now, at the same time as increasing resources and our
:15:00. > :15:06.response to the early years of childrens' lives. Thank you. A look
:15:06. > :15:16.childrens' lives. Thank you. A look at tomorrow's papers. The Times:
:15:16. > :15:19.
:15:19. > :15:24.poll boost for SNP as backing for It's windy outside much the winds
:15:24. > :15:29.will drop further through the early hours. Tomorrow will be breezy, but
:15:30. > :15:33.the winds not as strong as they were on Tuesday. Showers will be
:15:33. > :15:42.focused across western Scotland and north west England. To the east of
:15:42. > :15:45.the Pennines one or two may get through, but mainly staying dry.
:15:45. > :15:51.After a bright start it will cloud over in the South West. Showers
:15:51. > :15:58.could drift by on the breeze. Again, overall, a dryer day than Tuesday,
:15:58. > :16:01.it is a will be in south Wales. It will be a windy day across Northern
:16:01. > :16:09.Ireland. Again, not much sunshine here, cloudy with frequent showers.
:16:09. > :16:13.The showers will pepper western Scotland as well. Not too many for
:16:14. > :16:18.the north-east, good chance of sunshine in Aberdeen shr. By
:16:18. > :16:23.Thursday the winds will ease. Scotland will look like a dryer day
:16:23. > :16:27.with good spells of sunshine. Further south, grey on Thursday.
:16:27. > :16:32.The winds won't be as strong. There will be outbreaks of rain covering