0:00:01 > 0:00:09economic Area. So you would do nothing?
0:00:09 > 0:00:13We will leave it there. On Newsnight Scotland - at the two
0:00:13 > 0:00:17Unionist parties are gearing up to sore back to the top of the
0:00:17 > 0:00:22political pyramid, at least it they say. Leadership candidates are
0:00:22 > 0:00:26beginning to line up for Labour and I will speak to one of their party
0:00:26 > 0:00:30review's offers. And I'll speak to a Conservative candidate for party
0:00:30 > 0:00:34leadership. Does Jackson Carlaw have what it takes to transform the
0:00:34 > 0:00:38Conservative Party fortunes? Labour is used to being in power in
0:00:38 > 0:00:43Scotland. But now members are coming to terms with not being in
0:00:43 > 0:00:47control of anything bigger than a council. On Saturday the party held
0:00:47 > 0:00:57back from its internal review. I will speak to the co-chair of that
0:00:57 > 0:00:59
0:01:00 > 0:01:04The SNP is now firmly established as a party of government.
0:01:04 > 0:01:08Increasingly it is presenting itself as the party. And it is not
0:01:08 > 0:01:18just the Education Secretary who is having to bow to Alex Salmon's
0:01:18 > 0:01:18
0:01:18 > 0:01:21achievements. There is no party for the Scot --
0:01:21 > 0:01:28no future for the Scottish Conservative Party and its current
0:01:28 > 0:01:33form. Scottish Labour is also attempting
0:01:33 > 0:01:41to reform to present a more authentic picture to the Scottish
0:01:41 > 0:01:46electorate. We will reorganise at grass roots
0:01:46 > 0:01:54level. We're putting energy into the party and totally transforming
0:01:54 > 0:01:58it. We will provide a set of structures that bring us up to date.
0:01:58 > 0:02:07So that we can strengthen our party but stand up for Scotland and when
0:02:07 > 0:02:11a referendum when it comes. We have reflected over the summer
0:02:11 > 0:02:18and are now totally focused on the future. We will give ourselves a
0:02:18 > 0:02:25stronger leader, support that leader, let them do the job.
0:02:25 > 0:02:29But the process of replacing Ian Gray is tortuous. Approval is still
0:02:29 > 0:02:34needed from the UK party conference before hustings in November and the
0:02:34 > 0:02:39result being announced before Christmas. This drawn-out process
0:02:40 > 0:02:45is already providing the SNP with comic material.
0:02:45 > 0:02:52As he prepares for his imminent retirement... Well, I do not know
0:02:52 > 0:02:57whether it is imminent! This means that attention is drawn
0:02:57 > 0:03:03away from scrutinising the SNP government. But it does appear that
0:03:03 > 0:03:07they have rather large penny has dropped. The big message from this
0:03:07 > 0:03:15year's Holyrood election is that been perceived as Scottish matters.
0:03:15 > 0:03:25It is only now that the SNP has an overall majority that Labour and
0:03:25 > 0:03:29Conservatives have woken up. The Scottish electorate are not
0:03:29 > 0:03:33daft. They know the difference between Holyrood and Westminster
0:03:33 > 0:03:37elections. When it comes to the Scottish elections that they are
0:03:37 > 0:03:43seeking a Scottish dimension, each of the party's high as to operate
0:03:43 > 0:03:46within that, they have to go along with the perspective advanced by
0:03:46 > 0:03:51the Scottish people. The reform package for Labour is
0:03:51 > 0:03:56likely to be accepted. But whoever becomes the new leader will have a
0:03:56 > 0:04:03job on their hands. The SNP is marching on and by the time a new
0:04:03 > 0:04:09leader is chosen they will have had a six month start on the opposition.
0:04:09 > 0:04:14I am now joined by a Sarah Boyack MSP who was co-chair of the Labour
0:04:14 > 0:04:18review. You have had plenty of time to think about this, what does the
0:04:18 > 0:04:23party in Scotland stand for nowadays?
0:04:23 > 0:04:27We stand for a successful Scotland. One of the key messages from our
0:04:27 > 0:04:32campaign was that we did not win support for our vision. That vision
0:04:32 > 0:04:37was for a fairer and Scotland, I Scotland of solidarity, investing
0:04:37 > 0:04:41in vital public services. We did not get that message across. In the
0:04:41 > 0:04:44middle of a recession our plans for creating jobs and Modern
0:04:44 > 0:04:49apprenticeships did not get that message across so now we must
0:04:49 > 0:04:55reform the party, I get it fit for or this, and a repeat the job that
0:04:55 > 0:04:59we did in 1999 when their devolved parliament was set up, we will now
0:04:59 > 0:05:01devolve the party and make sure that decisions affecting Scotland
0:05:01 > 0:05:06have taken here by the Scottish party.
0:05:06 > 0:05:11We will talk about that process and a moment. But you talk about Labour
0:05:11 > 0:05:17being a party of fairness, solidarity, public services. You
0:05:17 > 0:05:21could be describing the SNP - what is the difference?
0:05:22 > 0:05:25The SNP tried to get in on our territory. We have been debating
0:05:25 > 0:05:29and how we move forward and changing how the party works is
0:05:29 > 0:05:39just that the first step. Having a party leader elected by the
0:05:39 > 0:05:41
0:05:41 > 0:05:50Scottish a membership is the first part. We must support the leader.
0:05:50 > 0:05:55What are the policy differences that will make?
0:05:55 > 0:06:05It is a process. We have sport to business leaders and party members.
0:06:05 > 0:06:10They want us to articulate a vision, the key is how we do it.
0:06:10 > 0:06:15But you have talked about looking more Scottish. What will be more
0:06:15 > 0:06:20Scottish end terms of what the leader part -- the Labour Party?
0:06:20 > 0:06:24We have to set out a radical and exciting agenda for Scotland. We're
0:06:24 > 0:06:28putting in place a mechanism to get a new leader and make sure that the
0:06:28 > 0:06:33party organisation becomes a fit for purpose. We have not performed
0:06:33 > 0:06:37at the party for decades and this has to be our agenda moving for
0:06:37 > 0:06:40water. You talk about a new leader with
0:06:40 > 0:06:49the devolved power. What will the new leader be able to do that Ian
0:06:49 > 0:06:52Gray could not do? They can speak for the hall Labour
0:06:52 > 0:06:57Party in Scotland. They will have an authority that Ian could not
0:06:57 > 0:07:02call on as a leader. That is the significant thing, at will be a
0:07:02 > 0:07:08leader of the Scottish Labour Party and it will Borrie the IB are that
0:07:08 > 0:07:13we are runner for its -- runner from a London.
0:07:13 > 0:07:19Let's talk about how this works in practice. So the new leader can ask,
0:07:19 > 0:07:28I want you to vote this way at Westminster because I am the
0:07:28 > 0:07:33Scottish leader and you represent a Scottish constituency?
0:07:33 > 0:07:43No, we are devolving on council matters and Holyrood matters. But
0:07:43 > 0:07:47
0:07:47 > 0:07:51we remain proud of being a UK party. In the terms of radical change you
0:07:51 > 0:07:56have really not be radical at all. You talk about a committee, that
0:07:56 > 0:07:59will doubtless be exciting for some are members. You're going to double
0:08:00 > 0:08:05the policy-making of the party but that does not seem to make much
0:08:05 > 0:08:12difference from what you're saying. There is no radicalism here what so
0:08:12 > 0:08:16ever. I disagree. We should maybe have
0:08:16 > 0:08:20done this before but we cannot be complacent and we have to rebuild
0:08:20 > 0:08:26on the success labour initially had in setting up the Scottish
0:08:26 > 0:08:30Parliament. We have to build from where we are now. We have MSPs
0:08:30 > 0:08:34across the whole of Scotland. I think it is a fundamental to send
0:08:34 > 0:08:39the message that the Scottish Labour Party is here, we'll have a
0:08:39 > 0:08:44new leader, we will be Scotland's Labour Party, that is a few jolly
0:08:44 > 0:08:48important, we are looking to the future, if we're going to set a
0:08:48 > 0:08:52radical, exciting vision for Scotland.
0:08:52 > 0:08:59Don't you increasingly look like a party which is defined not by
0:08:59 > 0:09:03traditional policies but by opposition to independence?
0:09:03 > 0:09:07Absolutely not. We have lots of exciting policies we just have not
0:09:07 > 0:09:13communicated them effectively. The next stage of the review is looking
0:09:13 > 0:09:16at the available resources and how we talk as a team. We have to be a
0:09:16 > 0:09:26team and not represent different interests of different sections. We
0:09:26 > 0:09:27
0:09:27 > 0:09:30have to be coherent and radical. You sound like you are talking to a
0:09:30 > 0:09:40focus group rather than outlining hard facts that will make a
0:09:40 > 0:09:43
0:09:43 > 0:09:47difference to voters. Absolutely not. We have to get on
0:09:47 > 0:09:50the front foot and get our confidence back. But this is only
0:09:50 > 0:10:00the first stage. The next stage will be putting in place the
0:10:00 > 0:10:02
0:10:02 > 0:10:11support to make sure we can reconnect with the voters.
0:10:11 > 0:10:16Are you interested in the leadership job yourself?
0:10:16 > 0:10:19I am very flattered but my job is to make sure that whoever it is a
0:10:19 > 0:10:24has the authority and the confidence to move forward. It is a
0:10:24 > 0:10:34know from me, I hope that the vision is a success but it is up to
0:10:34 > 0:10:35
0:10:35 > 0:10:40At the weekend the Scottish Conservative party endorse the
0:10:40 > 0:10:45findings of veteran Lord Sanderson. Now they have a campaign to find
0:10:45 > 0:10:50their new leader. Last week we heard from Murdo Fraser, tonight is
0:10:50 > 0:10:56the turn of Jackson Carlaw. Murdo Fraser snatched the headlines last
0:10:56 > 0:11:00week as he played his cards with the word radical. Ruth Davidson
0:11:00 > 0:11:06gained attention when she sacked her chief of staff after he was
0:11:06 > 0:11:12accused of so-called Bullingdon Club behaviour, trying to burn a
0:11:12 > 0:11:19European Union flag. But she enjoyed the celebrity endorsement
0:11:19 > 0:11:24of Lord Forsyth. This man, Jackson Carlaw, was first into the
0:11:24 > 0:11:27leadership race, but he has made fewer headlines. Is that the canny
0:11:27 > 0:11:34decision, realising he must convince the party members to vote
0:11:34 > 0:11:39for him, not a newspaper editors? The West of Scotland MSP lives in
0:11:39 > 0:11:44Troon. Good morning and welcome. The phoney war is over. He opened
0:11:44 > 0:11:49his campaign with the slogan a strong Scotland in a Great Britain.
0:11:49 > 0:11:57He has criticised some policies of the retiring leader and has combat
0:11:57 > 0:12:01at Murdo Fraser's Unionism to save them from a breakaway organisation.
0:12:01 > 0:12:05He wants an early referendum on independence and does not seem keen
0:12:05 > 0:12:10on any more devolution, but as public health spokesperson he is
0:12:10 > 0:12:15backing the SNP plan for the minimum pricing of a cult. While
0:12:15 > 0:12:20Lord Tebbit is backing Murdo Fraser, it is not clear which Tory icons
0:12:20 > 0:12:23are backing Jackson Carlaw. Earlier this evening, he joins me in the
0:12:23 > 0:12:29studio and I asked him why he thinks he is best placed to lead
0:12:29 > 0:12:35the party in Scotland. I believe I can make a difference. I have been
0:12:35 > 0:12:39involved in the party for 30 years at all levels as a youth leader, a
0:12:39 > 0:12:43constituency chairman, somebody who was appointed to be deputy chairman
0:12:43 > 0:12:48and also as a parliamentarian. I have a thorough understanding of
0:12:48 > 0:12:51the party, an understanding of what we need to do at the 11th hour for
0:12:51 > 0:12:56the Scottish Conservative Party if we are finally to make some sort of
0:12:56 > 0:13:01recovery in Scotland. Many people may not know you or your politics.
0:13:02 > 0:13:06Let's have a run-through of some of the key, touchstone Tory policies.
0:13:06 > 0:13:10Are you proud to call yourself a Thatcherite? I was very proud to
0:13:10 > 0:13:18support Margaret Thatcher. What Thatcherism means today I do not
0:13:18 > 0:13:23know. Proud? Proud to be a supporter of Margaret Thatcher and
0:13:23 > 0:13:28a Scottish Conservative. Still a Thatcherite? What is a Thatcherite?
0:13:28 > 0:13:35Capital punishment, a good thing or a bad thing. I would not support it.
0:13:35 > 0:13:39Do you support the concept of a marriage. I do not think it should
0:13:39 > 0:13:44be forced upon churches that do not wish to do it, but those who wish
0:13:44 > 0:13:48to, should be allowed to do so. you accept the argument climate
0:13:48 > 0:13:52change is man-made? They impart. It is difficult to be absolutely
0:13:52 > 0:13:56certain whether it is wholly man- made. It is a considerable
0:13:56 > 0:14:02challenge. The greater challenge is the resources of the planet in
0:14:02 > 0:14:06total and how we manage them. move on to the future of your party.
0:14:06 > 0:14:12You spoke about it being the 11th hour. We do you blame for that
0:14:12 > 0:14:15predicament? I think collectively. When I started out in politics we
0:14:15 > 0:14:20still have people like Teddy Taylor representing as in cities like
0:14:20 > 0:14:25Glasgow, we had lots of councillors. Thereafter we lost support in the
0:14:25 > 0:14:29cities and we ignored cities and urban communities. For many people
0:14:29 > 0:14:33we stopped having a message that was relevant. We have compounded
0:14:33 > 0:14:37that over the last few years. Under Annabel Goldie we have had a
0:14:37 > 0:14:41remarkable relationship with the electorate. But at the end of the
0:14:41 > 0:14:46day they have not voted for us. I do not think they think that what
0:14:46 > 0:14:51we stand for has any connection or relevance for them. Annabel Goldie
0:14:51 > 0:14:55was a good person, but a bad leader? She was a good leader, in
0:14:55 > 0:15:01this sense a lot of people are listening to us again. They liked
0:15:01 > 0:15:04her plain talking. But possibly we have been too cautious, too insular.
0:15:04 > 0:15:09Perhaps the MSPs have felt they are the centre of the political
0:15:09 > 0:15:14universe. We have not been reaching out to a much broader base of
0:15:14 > 0:15:19people in the Conservative Party, to evolve policies which are going
0:15:19 > 0:15:24to succeed in places which are not currently being elected to. You are
0:15:24 > 0:15:29a personal liability. You have a safe Conservative seat to fight and
0:15:29 > 0:15:34you suffered a humiliating defeat. A like all three other candidates I
0:15:34 > 0:15:39failed to win my seat. But you had a notionally safe Conservative seat.
0:15:39 > 0:15:44It was a notionally safe seat according to the BBC. I was hugely
0:15:44 > 0:15:50disappointed by the result. Was it more about you or the message?
0:15:50 > 0:15:56of the problem was the message we were fighting on. The first time
0:15:56 > 0:15:58view of our manifesto was the first day it was published. It was before
0:15:58 > 0:16:04I knew what we were going to be fighting the election on. That is
0:16:04 > 0:16:09not a recipe for success. We have to be much more inclusive in the
0:16:10 > 0:16:12way we develop a policy. In the West of Scotland's with all the
0:16:12 > 0:16:17publicity and television appearances Annabel court, her
0:16:17 > 0:16:22share of the vote went down as well. The Scottish Conservatives' share
0:16:22 > 0:16:27of the vote went there to a record low in May. That is not a record
0:16:27 > 0:16:32any of us can be proud of. You are no fan of Annabel Goldie and her
0:16:32 > 0:16:37leadership, are you? You have made that clear so far. You have also
0:16:37 > 0:16:40made clear her leadership has also helped to further the cause of
0:16:40 > 0:16:45independence. I believe the approach, which was well
0:16:46 > 0:16:53intentioned, I was not necessarily a supporter of it... Why did you
0:16:53 > 0:16:58not say that? I have since 2005 and many people in the party knew I did
0:16:58 > 0:17:05not feel we should have a referendum. You stood up and said,
0:17:05 > 0:17:09she has got it completely wrong? have said so. Publicly? Yes, at a
0:17:09 > 0:17:13party conference to which the BBC were invited. You will say
0:17:13 > 0:17:18something to an audience of activists, but would not say it to
0:17:18 > 0:17:22an electorate? We have a leader and a group and the group determine the
0:17:22 > 0:17:27policy we would fight the election on and I supported that. But my own
0:17:27 > 0:17:31view is we have been playing too long to the SNP tuna. We have
0:17:31 > 0:17:36allowed ourselves to react to their shopping list of demands. It has
0:17:36 > 0:17:41not advanced as electorally. The time has come, not simply to spend
0:17:41 > 0:17:45the next few years reacting to Alex Salmond, who will have a shopping
0:17:45 > 0:17:49list for every day of the week, and to ask the people of Scotland, do
0:17:50 > 0:17:55they want to renew the 300 year old partnership with the United Kingdom
0:17:55 > 0:17:59or separate from it? After that, from a position of strength,
0:17:59 > 0:18:02Scotland will stand taller and it will be more empowered and we can
0:18:02 > 0:18:07discuss such transfers that need to come to the Scottish Parliament
0:18:07 > 0:18:13within a framework. Do you think the Scottish Parliament should have
0:18:13 > 0:18:16more or fewer powers? I do not think it is giving value to money
0:18:16 > 0:18:21for the taxpayer. I published a paper last week which said we need
0:18:21 > 0:18:26to sit logger, work harder, give the taxpayer better value for money.
0:18:26 > 0:18:31We need to do a better job of giving effect to the powers we have
0:18:31 > 0:18:41it before we get more. But we are going to get more. You have
0:18:41 > 0:18:44described the Scotland at proposals as being thought. What I said was I
0:18:44 > 0:18:49think the process by which the Scotland at came about, the Calman
0:18:49 > 0:18:52Commission, basically a review group responding to the particular
0:18:52 > 0:18:57issues like fishing rights in the Tweed, was the wrong way to go
0:18:57 > 0:19:01about it. Another issue in which you disagreed privately in your
0:19:01 > 0:19:05leadership, but did not tell the public? No, I made my views
0:19:06 > 0:19:09reasonably clear and I am sorry you have not picked up on that. The
0:19:09 > 0:19:14wrong way to respond has been to respond all the time to what the
0:19:14 > 0:19:18SNP are thinking. If we are going to transfer powers to Scottish
0:19:18 > 0:19:21Parliament, and over the next generation there will be other
0:19:21 > 0:19:27instances that are appropriate, it should be because it is in the best
0:19:27 > 0:19:30interests of Scotland, not because we think the reason to transfer the
0:19:30 > 0:19:36powers to the Scottish Parliament is because it will kill the SNP
0:19:36 > 0:19:40stone dead. That strategy is not the one for success. If you win, is
0:19:40 > 0:19:45there a place in your party for Murdo Fraser? Yes. Even though he
0:19:45 > 0:19:49does not believe in the party any more? What is the point if we all
0:19:49 > 0:19:52say the same thing in this election? The candidates are
0:19:52 > 0:19:57offering choices to the Conservative Party and it is to the
0:19:57 > 0:20:02membership of the party that these choices are being offered. There
0:20:02 > 0:20:12are 15 MSPs and we will unite behind whoever the leader is.
0:20:12 > 0:20:18
0:20:18 > 0:20:23That is about unrealistic energy targets. A report out on tomorrow