:00:09. > :00:13.much more part of our future. Tonight on Newsnight Scotland: A
:00:13. > :00:16.petty, mean-spirited proposal that betrays a lack of trust in teachers.
:00:16. > :00:20.Is a plan to make teachers work more flexibly deserving of that
:00:20. > :00:23.sort of response from Scotland's biggest teaching union?
:00:23. > :00:27.And does the government really want to pick a fight with the
:00:27. > :00:30.educational establishment? Good evening. It was supposed to be
:00:31. > :00:34.about how to improve the quality of the teachers and teaching in our
:00:34. > :00:37.schools. But the McCormac review, which was published today, seems
:00:37. > :00:39.just to have antagonised the profession. Proposals to change the
:00:39. > :00:43.career structure and increase flexible working have been blasted
:00:43. > :00:48.by the largest teachers union. But are these explosive responses just
:00:48. > :00:58.an opening salvo in the bigger fight to come with the government?
:00:58. > :01:00.
:01:00. > :01:04.Scotland once had an education system that was the envy of the
:01:04. > :01:13.world. Let us not be too negative. Scotland still has a high standard
:01:13. > :01:17.of education. Okay, Fox, the lesson today is all about constructing
:01:17. > :01:21.strangled. But in recent years, people attainment has flat Clyde.
:01:21. > :01:25.Whereas in other countries, including England and Wales, they
:01:25. > :01:33.might have been improvements. The report card for Scotland's Teachers
:01:33. > :01:37.says: could do better. We think children are well served by the
:01:37. > :01:43.education system. What we are looking to do is see if there are
:01:43. > :01:45.ways in which he could be improved, and looking at the curriculum for
:01:45. > :01:51.excellence, with the there are things that need to be changed that
:01:51. > :02:00.could improve outcomes. Two things were some -- flexibility within the
:02:00. > :02:07.teaching profession and quality. Teaching has changed a lot since
:02:07. > :02:11.this 1955 classroom. But today's report is looking at how teaching
:02:11. > :02:16.is going to look in the future, and they came up with a number of
:02:16. > :02:21.proposals. But few of them could be considered too radical. They want
:02:21. > :02:25.to keep the 35 hour week, but they asking teachers to be a little bit
:02:25. > :02:30.more flexible, perhaps spending more time in the classroom and less
:02:30. > :02:34.on preparation if needed. Thirdly, there would be no more taking work
:02:35. > :02:39.home. They want teachers to spend all of these 35 hours in the
:02:39. > :02:42.classroom. These proposals seem to have done little more than provoke
:02:42. > :02:47.anger among the unions. I think this proposal betrays and lack of
:02:47. > :02:50.trust in the teaching profession. We built this into the 2001
:02:50. > :02:54.agreement that teachers do what work they need to do at the time
:02:54. > :02:57.and place that is appropriate to the work being done, and of course
:02:57. > :03:02.when they are teaching pupils, they will be in school, but other tasks
:03:02. > :03:06.do not require them to be in school, and teachers are accustomed to
:03:06. > :03:10.working outside school. I think this is a pity, mean-spirited
:03:10. > :03:14.proposal, that poisons the atmosphere. Teachers say they are
:03:14. > :03:21.left feeling demoralised. The local authorities to employ them have
:03:21. > :03:26.been left disappointed. -- who employ them. They wanted tea -- to
:03:26. > :03:29.seek teacher spending longer in the classroom. But what about the
:03:29. > :03:33.pupils? There is a feeling this review does not address some of the
:03:33. > :03:40.fundamental problems facing education. What I find difficult to
:03:40. > :03:45.see is how these recommendations will help narrow the inequalities,
:03:45. > :03:50.if they applied across all teachers, there may be a general improvement,
:03:50. > :03:58.but I'm not sure those who were badly underperforming will move up
:03:58. > :04:02.nearer the standards of the average, all the best in Scotland. This
:04:02. > :04:06.review was limited to looking at how to improve the quality of
:04:06. > :04:10.teaching and teachers. The government says that his key to
:04:10. > :04:17.increasing achievement among pupils. Education is about making sure our
:04:17. > :04:21.young people, so they move forward, get opportunities and life chances,
:04:21. > :04:26.and progress in the world. That is the decision we have to make all
:04:26. > :04:29.the time, this report helps us to take boarded the issue of
:04:29. > :04:34.professionalism in education, but we need to do it by discussion and
:04:34. > :04:37.negotiation. The review raises important issues, like the problem
:04:37. > :04:42.of failing teachers, and the need to address social inequality. But
:04:42. > :04:46.it doesn't offer suggestions on how to deal with them. Policy decisions
:04:46. > :04:52.will be based on the review, but appears to offer more questions
:04:52. > :04:56.than answers. We did invite perverse McCormack to
:04:56. > :04:59.appear, but he was unavailable. -- professor. I'm joined now from
:04:59. > :05:02.Edinburgh by Lindsay Paterson who is Professor of Educational Policy
:05:02. > :05:04.at Edinburgh University, and in the studio by the Assistant Secretary
:05:04. > :05:07.of Scotland's biggest teaching union, the EIS, Drew Morrice and by
:05:07. > :05:16.Jim Thewliss who is headteacher at Harris Academy in Dundee and also
:05:16. > :05:20.President of School Leaders Scotland. Thank you are coming in.
:05:20. > :05:23.Linsey, first of all, a basic finding here is that 11 years on
:05:23. > :05:29.from the original report, and in the light of a number of recent
:05:29. > :05:31.report, it is clear that Scotland has not improved his position as a
:05:31. > :05:37.middle-ranking performer in international student assessments.
:05:37. > :05:44.Is that true, and if so, why? certainly an accurate
:05:44. > :05:47.characterisation of recent research. Undoubtedly, that is an accurate
:05:47. > :05:51.statement. The explanation is very complex indeed, it is certainly not
:05:51. > :05:56.only to do with the working conditions or the length of the
:05:56. > :05:59.teacher week, or where they do their work. For the report to claim
:05:59. > :06:03.that that will lead to a change in that statement position seems
:06:03. > :06:08.disingenuous. Do you think the report is essentially superficial
:06:08. > :06:12.in its findings? I think it is. I wouldn't be highly critical of it,
:06:12. > :06:16.it has some fairly good things, the stuff about working flexibly is
:06:16. > :06:20.what any profession would want to have, but nevertheless, it does
:06:20. > :06:24.seem that it does skate across the surface, and is inferior to be much
:06:24. > :06:31.better report from Graham Dawson that was issued earlier this year.
:06:31. > :06:35.We will look at actual training in a moment, but if we look at
:06:35. > :06:38.flexibility, it is saying that if 35 hour working week, contracted
:06:38. > :06:42.for at the moment, it should be said that several reviews have said
:06:42. > :06:47.that most teachers work a great deal longer than that, and that is
:06:47. > :06:52.accepted. But it is saying here that rather than considering class
:06:52. > :06:59.contact time on a weekly basis, it is considering weekly blocks on a
:06:59. > :07:05.four week or turn Brock basis. It could be managed more flexibly. Why
:07:05. > :07:09.is that something you are resistant to? I think the problem is that it
:07:09. > :07:14.is a theory, and there is a very little practical way that can be
:07:14. > :07:20.taken forward. For people who have the timetable, it actually will
:07:20. > :07:23.have a contrary effect of what the review is setting out. It will be
:07:23. > :07:29.to teachers clock-watching. The big problem teachers face and have
:07:29. > :07:34.faced is the question of workload. You will not tackle workload by
:07:34. > :07:37.introducing flexibility. I think teachers need for certainty of
:07:38. > :07:43.working hours to be set out, and work within that framework. I think
:07:43. > :07:47.there is some discussion to be had around this, but the McCormack
:07:47. > :07:51.report gives no shape to how you will deliver that. That is the
:07:51. > :07:56.fundamental difficulty in trying to break forward that proposal. It is
:07:56. > :08:01.not rooted in practical reality. But you haven't closed the door on
:08:01. > :08:07.it definitely? We welcome the cabinet secretary saying that these
:08:07. > :08:10.discussions have to be taken forward, and when you have to get
:08:10. > :08:14.in that day's discussions, the first issue is, is their way you
:08:14. > :08:18.can deliver that in a meaningful way? We would doubt whether you can
:08:18. > :08:28.give practical effect to the type of flexibility that he is setting
:08:28. > :08:35.
:08:35. > :08:40.What do you think of that as a head teacher? There is a timetable. If
:08:40. > :08:45.the will is there to improve outcomes for young people... Do you
:08:45. > :08:52.think more flexible working practices... Is there a scenario
:08:53. > :09:02.where it would improve things? is unworthy of exploring it to see
:09:03. > :09:06.
:09:06. > :09:10.whether it would do. If we look over a term, or a month, I would
:09:10. > :09:15.like to explore that to see if it could be made to work. Lindsay
:09:15. > :09:20.Paterson, you spoke about teacher quality. This is highlighted in the
:09:20. > :09:27.report. Talking about better screening of teachers going into
:09:27. > :09:34.the profession. Higher qualifications and more demanding
:09:34. > :09:41.academic standards. This would be more significant than the reduction
:09:41. > :09:48.in class sizes, according to the report. It says marginal
:09:48. > :09:54.differences in size should not be pursued rather than raising overall
:09:54. > :10:02.teaching quality. This was set out in Graham Donaldson's report
:10:02. > :10:08.earlier this year. We have to demand a better grounding in the
:10:08. > :10:15.basics, especially in the primary sector. Many teachers do not have a
:10:15. > :10:24.grasp of how language and numbers are understood by the children. The
:10:24. > :10:28.report has read Goethe to this, much more challenging -- the report
:10:28. > :10:33.has referred to this. One of the interesting thing as of today's
:10:33. > :10:40.report is the idea that teachers in a school can organise their own
:10:40. > :10:45.professional development. That goes beyond the rigid structures that
:10:45. > :10:53.exist currently. How could it be that teachers do not have the basic
:10:54. > :10:58.qualifications? It is appalling that there are teachers who fail to
:10:58. > :11:08.be competent at grasping basic things are taught in the primary
:11:08. > :11:15.curriculum. That they do not grasp, especially mathematical standards,
:11:15. > :11:22.we require of ten-year-olds. This is about the teacher education
:11:22. > :11:29.establishment. There has to be radical change. Support coming
:11:29. > :11:35.perhaps by distance learning. Teachers can help each other and
:11:35. > :11:42.work together in groups with the head teacher and other schools. We
:11:42. > :11:52.need to be more imaginative. Drew Morrice, do you recognise that
:11:52. > :11:52.
:11:52. > :11:59.description? The quality of teachers currently in the national
:11:59. > :12:06.induction scheme has improved the quality of entrants in the teaching
:12:06. > :12:14.profession. I welcome his view that teachers collaborating, which can
:12:14. > :12:21.help improve standards, that is a much-needed development. To be fair,
:12:21. > :12:27.Professor McCormac has recognised this in one level but he ducks away
:12:27. > :12:32.from it in his recommendations. we accept there are teachers who
:12:32. > :12:39.are not performing as we would hope, in the section on poor performance,
:12:39. > :12:47.he says there is a concern that if they can be a negative impact on
:12:47. > :12:53.education for children while they resolve these things. They say they
:12:53. > :12:58.believe arrangements can be strengthened through annual reviews.
:12:58. > :13:04.It is important that we can look at what the professor has said within
:13:04. > :13:10.the context of other initiatives, particularly the Donaldson report.
:13:10. > :13:20.It is important to recognise that the MacCormick review has been
:13:20. > :13:21.
:13:21. > :13:26.rebranded to look at advancing the profession of teaching. It is clear
:13:27. > :13:31.in the areas of concern that we need to address. If we look at the
:13:31. > :13:36.flexibility in approach he proposes, and some of the things that Lindsay
:13:36. > :13:42.Paterson said are interesting in developing that line of thinking.
:13:42. > :13:50.Advancing the profession. Do you accept there are people who should
:13:50. > :14:00.not be in the profession? If you go back to the genesis of this report,
:14:00. > :14:03.
:14:03. > :14:08.from 2001, a lot has been done for the profession of teaching in
:14:08. > :14:12.Scotland. How do you get rid of these teachers? It is important
:14:12. > :14:20.when somebody who is not doing the job well, they should not be doing
:14:20. > :14:27.that job. But if you concentrate on that, it misses the other problem
:14:27. > :14:32.of skills. There is hard evidence, including teachers rating their own
:14:32. > :14:37.abilities, that indicates there is a widespread problem that cannot be
:14:37. > :14:41.solved by sacking a few bad teachers. It is not the fault of
:14:41. > :14:47.individual teachers. They have not been given adequate training and
:14:47. > :14:52.development in the first place. There is a suggestion that external
:14:52. > :14:59.experts could be taken on. More would be the union's attitude to
:14:59. > :15:04.that? We have seen developments where this was simply a cost-saving
:15:04. > :15:10.exercise. The introduction of any person coming in, they must work
:15:10. > :15:14.with teachers, they cannot be a replacement. The EIS would oppose
:15:14. > :15:22.any idea of people working in classrooms not been registered
:15:22. > :15:26.teachers. Even if that brings in expertise from outside? Experts
:15:27. > :15:33.working with teachers is one thing, but coming in to replace teachers
:15:33. > :15:38.is not acceptable to the EIS. The teaching Council echoed our views.
:15:38. > :15:46.Do you feel, as a head teacher, you would like flexibility to bring
:15:46. > :15:52.people in from outside? professor and mentions the notion
:15:52. > :15:58.of funding. I would be interested in expanding the range of expertise
:15:58. > :16:04.for young people in schools. But it is not to replace, it is in
:16:04. > :16:08.addition to bring people into the school. Finally, Lindsay Paterson,
:16:08. > :16:15.do you think that any politician from any political party actually
:16:15. > :16:21.has the stomach for a fight with the EIS or any other unions? I hope
:16:21. > :16:27.they do. We are in a position where we have to have changed in the
:16:27. > :16:31.system. There is the commitment of most teachers, but the point is
:16:31. > :16:37.that teachers have been inadequately prepared and been
:16:37. > :16:42.adequately supported and that needs to change. Thank you.
:16:42. > :16:46.We can have a look at the newspapers. The Herald is leading
:16:46. > :16:53.with the story of Britain facing the worst wave of strikes for a
:16:53. > :17:03.the worst wave of strikes for a generation. The Scotsman newspaper
:17:03. > :17:04.
:17:04. > :17:10.has a blow for Scottish National Party Policies.