0:00:09 > 0:00:13counts. Tonight, the Labour leader Ed
0:00:13 > 0:00:18Miliband forget the name of one of the candidates to be the party in's
0:00:18 > 0:00:22new leader in Scotland. Does it tell us more about Ed Miliband or
0:00:22 > 0:00:26can mark -- Ken Macintosh? Also to light, what should we
0:00:26 > 0:00:29expect from Scottish Studies in schools? Is it a legitimate
0:00:29 > 0:00:35attempts to teach children about our background, or a plot to
0:00:35 > 0:00:41indoctrinate with nationalism? It was all going relatively
0:00:41 > 0:00:45smoothly for Labour at their conference, and a suppose it
0:00:45 > 0:00:49grilling from real people which appears to leave Ed Miliband
0:00:49 > 0:00:54unscathed and even enhanced. Then he sat down with an interview and
0:00:55 > 0:01:02was asked an innocuous question. Tim Reid spent the week at the
0:01:02 > 0:01:07conference. My point on this is we have got to
0:01:07 > 0:01:10argue against separation and separatism, but we have to argue
0:01:10 > 0:01:15for the union in a more positive way. It has to be about the
0:01:15 > 0:01:20positive case for the union. He told delegates this himself on
0:01:20 > 0:01:29Sunday night, at a Scottish debate attended by all three candidates
0:01:29 > 0:01:34seeking to become Scottish leader. On Monday the Scottish party was
0:01:34 > 0:01:39given it the power to elect their new leader. Today, a chance for us
0:01:39 > 0:01:43to ask Ed Miliband to flesh out his views.
0:01:43 > 0:01:48We have bought a lot about the dangers of separatism. We should do
0:01:48 > 0:01:53more to say what the positive benefits of it now -- are. Our
0:01:53 > 0:01:57shared institutions like the BBC, the NHS and the armed forces.
0:01:57 > 0:02:01Not many delegates argued with that, or the idea of letting the Scottish
0:02:01 > 0:02:05party decide his future. But there has been an undercurrent of
0:02:05 > 0:02:07discontent with the candidates. This is a. We put to the Labour
0:02:07 > 0:02:11leader. It is completely wrong to write
0:02:11 > 0:02:19people off before you have got into a race. Before you have even
0:02:19 > 0:02:26started. Can you name the three of them? Yes., Tom Harris, areas a
0:02:26 > 0:02:30Joanne, and a third candidate who is also there. And he is all the
0:02:30 > 0:02:38front-runner, Ken Macintosh. Macintosh, yes. He is the front-
0:02:38 > 0:02:42runner, but you cannot remember him. The is afternoon, consolation for
0:02:42 > 0:02:48colleagues -- from colleagues after a telephone call from Ed Miliband
0:02:48 > 0:02:54to apologise. I thought more was made of it. He
0:02:54 > 0:02:57did about 12 or more interviews in a row, and I forget the names of my
0:02:57 > 0:03:03children half the time. The other candidates were not eager
0:03:03 > 0:03:13to comment. MP Tom Harris would not, at the other contender made lighter
0:03:13 > 0:03:19I am totally delighted. But it did amuse the First Minister.
0:03:19 > 0:03:24-- First Minister. Ed Miliband was unable to look name all of the
0:03:24 > 0:03:31Scottish Labour candidates? --!. He got to out of the three, which was
0:03:31 > 0:03:40more than most of the population! Ed Miliband said he was tired and
0:03:41 > 0:03:44politician made mistakes. Not all people have been so forgiving. They
0:03:45 > 0:03:49suggest the current candidates are simply not high-profile enough.
0:03:49 > 0:03:53It tells me that Ken Macintosh is not actively lobbying Ed Miliband
0:03:53 > 0:03:59to back him, because in the old days, it was the Labour leader who
0:03:59 > 0:04:04chose who was appointed. They were all a anointed. There was a real
0:04:05 > 0:04:11contest here. The thing about gas is they can
0:04:11 > 0:04:21damage some folks, but others can get away with them.
0:04:21 > 0:04:30
0:04:30 > 0:04:35You would be to recite it? Kenya? As the curtain fell on this
0:04:35 > 0:04:40conference, the leader's memory seemed back intact, remembering the
0:04:40 > 0:04:44words to the Red Flag and Jerusalem. But perhaps as the head home --
0:04:44 > 0:04:49heads home, Ed Miliband may feel he does not get Scotland as much as he
0:04:49 > 0:04:53thought. No sooner do get control of the
0:04:53 > 0:04:56government that you set about brainwashing the children. That was
0:04:56 > 0:05:01the response of opposition politicians this summer when the
0:05:01 > 0:05:05SNP announced plans for a separate Scottish Africa a school subject
0:05:05 > 0:05:10called Scottish Studies. More details have been given at Holyrood.
0:05:10 > 0:05:17But the question remains, why do we need a new topic on the curriculum?
0:05:17 > 0:05:24Do our children not already know about Scotland's story?
0:05:24 > 0:05:28What is Scottish? Welcome to the White Heather Club, coming to you
0:05:28 > 0:05:36from Scotland. Which of these truly represents our
0:05:36 > 0:05:42country and people? Of course, the answer is that they
0:05:42 > 0:05:46are all Scotland. Perhaps our ancient universities should be
0:05:46 > 0:05:51thrown in, and you get the picture. But what of this do not already
0:05:51 > 0:05:55know? What aspects of that can we expect our young people not to
0:05:55 > 0:05:59learn as they go through life? Pas of the challenge is that you'll
0:05:59 > 0:06:04probably find a lot of that information exists in different
0:06:04 > 0:06:09part of the curriculum. Something like Scottish Studies will allow a
0:06:09 > 0:06:13lot of those areas to be pulled together in a more coherent manner.
0:06:13 > 0:06:17Certainly a lot of the research suggests that children tend to be
0:06:17 > 0:06:22relatively aware of most of the historical context, and that would
0:06:22 > 0:06:26have to be a core element, if not the only element of a Scottish
0:06:26 > 0:06:32Studies Programme. Today in the chamber, the Minister
0:06:32 > 0:06:35developed more detail, and previous complaints of Nat -- nationalist
0:06:36 > 0:06:43brainwashing were absent. All young people deserve the
0:06:43 > 0:06:48opportunity to learn about their own country. Those who still oppose
0:06:48 > 0:06:53may wish to take a deep breath, to come away from their constitutional
0:06:53 > 0:06:57obsessions... They obviously recognise the
0:06:57 > 0:07:01problem we have, and see that Scottish Studies is healthy, normal
0:07:01 > 0:07:05and is supported by people across the spectrum and across the world
0:07:05 > 0:07:13of education. It is also supported by parents.
0:07:13 > 0:07:17The proposal is in a transitional period. It is more of a hearts and
0:07:17 > 0:07:20minds policy than a party political one. It should be a robust addition
0:07:20 > 0:07:25to the curriculum which will give children an advantage if it is to
0:07:25 > 0:07:28succeed. If I felt important aspects of
0:07:28 > 0:07:32Scottish Studies which were essential components to be better
0:07:32 > 0:07:36education up our pupils which were not currently being taught, I might
0:07:36 > 0:07:39have a little more sympathy with the SNP. But within all the
0:07:40 > 0:07:44research I can find, there seems to be a wealth of evidence which tells
0:07:44 > 0:07:48us that there is already very considerable and good quality
0:07:48 > 0:07:54coverage of Scottish literature, language, politics, culture and
0:07:54 > 0:07:57history. But academics are not convinced.
0:07:57 > 0:08:00Learning about Scotland means learning about all aspects of
0:08:01 > 0:08:06Scotland. The government is very happy to do that. It might be
0:08:06 > 0:08:10argued that one of the reasons for the SNP's success is that the other
0:08:10 > 0:08:14parties have simply not taken Scotland on board enough. The idea
0:08:14 > 0:08:20that Scotland is something to be ashamed of is a very strange idea
0:08:20 > 0:08:26when you live in Scotland that Doris got. Scotland was oddly be
0:08:26 > 0:08:31better studied better -- Scotland was better studied in England than
0:08:31 > 0:08:35in Scotland 50 years ago. History was more integrated between the
0:08:35 > 0:08:40four nations, and writers were widely taught in English schools.
0:08:40 > 0:08:43That has changed. At the national palate is surprise
0:08:43 > 0:08:49that it does not already exist as a subject.
0:08:49 > 0:08:54It is not mandatory to even study a single Scottish text to set -
0:08:54 > 0:09:00repressive your high as in Scotland. I think that is ridiculous. I do
0:09:00 > 0:09:05not want the literature that says all fancy things, I wanted to be
0:09:06 > 0:09:10the kind of literature that is critical of Scotland, that looks at
0:09:10 > 0:09:14our culture and what we have become. If we do not examine what our
0:09:14 > 0:09:24identity is and has been, and where it has come from, how can we look
0:09:24 > 0:09:27
0:09:27 > 0:09:32The images and ideas of Scotland are well known to us all. The
0:09:32 > 0:09:42challenges, how do we put them together into a story which
0:09:42 > 0:09:49
0:09:49 > 0:09:59explains and entertains the next I am joined by Dr Alison Cathcart,
0:09:59 > 0:10:01
0:10:01 > 0:10:10and allow three -- and Alan Riach and AL Kennedy. The are we not
0:10:10 > 0:10:16supposed to teach people this anyway? We can fall into easy
0:10:16 > 0:10:26assumptions about Scott being victims, without acknowledging our
0:10:26 > 0:10:33role in the Empire and the slave trade. There is also a very ill and
0:10:33 > 0:10:43sectarianism in Scotland which is not talked about. You quite like
0:10:43 > 0:10:43
0:10:43 > 0:10:47this idea? It is a bit unclear, what is being proposed. Is it that
0:10:48 > 0:10:55Scottish things being sneaked into other subjects or that there should
0:10:55 > 0:11:01be and that extra, separate subject? You quite like both?
0:11:01 > 0:11:09Before I went to university, I spent the some are finding out
0:11:09 > 0:11:13about my history. Finding out about writers from Dundee. I knew nothing
0:11:13 > 0:11:23about the town that I came from. I knew very little about the country
0:11:23 > 0:11:27I came from. When I went to England, I knew that I was abroad. I did
0:11:27 > 0:11:30nothing that was a terrible thing, but I felt I was abroad and an
0:11:30 > 0:11:35English-speaking country that I would have felt a New Zealander
0:11:35 > 0:11:42America. But it was not the British entity as I felt I had been taught
0:11:42 > 0:11:46about. I do not even really sound as if I come from Scotland, because
0:11:46 > 0:11:50I was taught that the way to be successful socially was to sound
0:11:50 > 0:11:55not Scottish. If we have not been doing this stuff, why have we not
0:11:55 > 0:12:05been doing it? Were have not been doing it for generations. There was
0:12:05 > 0:12:06
0:12:06 > 0:12:11a time when it was legendary that the novelist Nigel Taranto was
0:12:11 > 0:12:21being read by many people, and that was the only history scores were
0:12:21 > 0:12:23getting. Now, Scottish literature is not a proposition. There is no
0:12:23 > 0:12:33entitlement given to children in Scottish schools that they will
0:12:33 > 0:12:34
0:12:34 > 0:12:40find out about this. Dandy, one of the great poets of Sunday -- of
0:12:40 > 0:12:45Dundee,, 1 at Bury radical poet there has not been heard of in the
0:12:46 > 0:12:51same breath as Robert Burns. There is now people coming into the area
0:12:51 > 0:12:54to talk about this. For goodness sake, it is ridiculous that the
0:12:54 > 0:12:59question should be raised. What would you like to see? You would
0:12:59 > 0:13:07like to see a special subject, wouldn't you? I would like to see a
0:13:07 > 0:13:13provision for it in all schools and university. Scottish history,
0:13:13 > 0:13:21Scottish literature should be a normal part of the provision.
0:13:21 > 0:13:28do you think? I would agree with Alan. There is now a higher history
0:13:28 > 0:13:33exam on Scottish history. Otherwise, students do not have to do it. I
0:13:33 > 0:13:42know from teaching at university that the history, knowledge and
0:13:42 > 0:13:48understanding of Scotland and its past is poor. Is it? There has been
0:13:48 > 0:13:52Scottish Studies at Edinburgh University for ages. If that is
0:13:52 > 0:13:55there, and given that you are not suggesting that people should be
0:13:55 > 0:14:02forced to study Scottish subjects at university level, what is wrong
0:14:02 > 0:14:06with the system we have? You have a key question about people being
0:14:06 > 0:14:11forced to do something. People always shy away from that. You have
0:14:11 > 0:14:15to turn that around and say, what is an entitlement for people who
0:14:15 > 0:14:19are studying in this country? It has something to do with the
0:14:19 > 0:14:26knowledge of what this country is, its language, it paintings, its
0:14:26 > 0:14:32music. All of these things have to be there. They have not been there.
0:14:32 > 0:14:39They have not been embedded in the system for a long time. Are you
0:14:39 > 0:14:47from Ireland or you worked in Ireland? I am from Northern Ireland.
0:14:47 > 0:14:54A what is the situation there? was taught the history of Ireland,
0:14:54 > 0:15:001921-1972, which could raise a few issues at a school. I was taught
0:15:00 > 0:15:04the French Revolution, twentieth- century Europe. I study for two
0:15:04 > 0:15:11years in Dublin and Irish history is in there the whole way through,
0:15:12 > 0:15:17offered alongside American history, Indian history, whatever. So you'll
0:15:17 > 0:15:24agree at that level? The problem then becomes, let us teach Scottish
0:15:24 > 0:15:30literature - is there such a thing as Scottish literature? Is there
0:15:30 > 0:15:37such a thing as English literature or Irish literature? We tend to
0:15:37 > 0:15:42think as English literature as being in the English language. I do
0:15:42 > 0:15:45not think of AL Kennedy as a Scottish novelists. You do not want
0:15:45 > 0:15:55to claim any literature for a country, because this is
0:15:55 > 0:16:01international. I am not sitting here is a Scottish writer saying, I
0:16:01 > 0:16:04won my text to be studied so I can make money, but I want someone in
0:16:04 > 0:16:08school to know that they can succeed being the person that they
0:16:08 > 0:16:16are, using the language that the use. That is difficult if you don't
0:16:16 > 0:16:23see images of your country in movies, if you don't read about it.
0:16:23 > 0:16:28If you do not hear Scottish voices as the voice of success. You're
0:16:28 > 0:16:38going to go on repeating the mistakes. For example, Sir Walter
0:16:38 > 0:16:40Scott - does it make sense to study him, as even historically, to
0:16:40 > 0:16:47understand the Sir Walter Scott, you have to understand the history
0:16:47 > 0:16:53of Britain as well as the history of Scotland. It would be better if
0:16:53 > 0:16:58it was understood throughout England as well. Scotland exists in
0:16:58 > 0:17:02his own historical sense with its own voices. The picture a finger on
0:17:03 > 0:17:07it when you are talking about English literature being in a
0:17:07 > 0:17:10language we call English. That is fine, that is good and we are not
0:17:10 > 0:17:14saying that we should not study all sorts of things and literature in
0:17:14 > 0:17:24translation as well, but when you say that we are going to do this at
0:17:24 > 0:17:31the expense of studying Scottish literature, or studying literature
0:17:31 > 0:17:33end the language of Scotland or in Gaelic, you're cutting yourself off
0:17:33 > 0:17:39from a whole world of literary experience through hundreds of
0:17:39 > 0:17:46years. N Ireland, it would never occur to anyone there was never
0:17:46 > 0:17:54such a thing as Irish literature, would it? No. That presumably is
0:17:54 > 0:17:59James Joyce? I can speak for the entire population, but yeah, I was
0:17:59 > 0:18:05brought up with WB Yeats and was reading his poetry in the middle of
0:18:05 > 0:18:11secondary school. In what other country is their culture and
0:18:11 > 0:18:15history not hot where, every other country you go to it is taught and
0:18:15 > 0:18:24it is not an issue, yet here, you can go through your education and
0:18:24 > 0:18:27find out nothing about its culture or history. I was in a tutorial
0:18:27 > 0:18:32recently and we had students from Scotland but also from all over the
0:18:32 > 0:18:38world, and the Italian students knew about Dante, the German
0:18:38 > 0:18:44students knew about Schiller, they had not read this selected works,
0:18:44 > 0:18:50but they knew who these people were. Scottish students had veriest --
0:18:50 > 0:18:57some have had very of Daisy a stick teachers but most of their teachers
0:18:57 > 0:19:03had not given them the knowledge of Scottish literature. We are running
0:19:03 > 0:19:09out of time. I want to touch on something that alluded to, if we're
0:19:09 > 0:19:15going to teach more Scottish history, is there an issue then
0:19:15 > 0:19:21about what exactly you teach? There is a greatest hits in Scottish
0:19:21 > 0:19:24history, William Wallace, the Jacobite rising, Robert the Bruce.
0:19:24 > 0:19:34You're always going to have to abbreviate in some way to make it
0:19:34 > 0:19:38acceptable. The Covenanters, the Scottish Enlightenment? Someone
0:19:38 > 0:19:48used the word indoctrination, but it is not indoctrination towards a
0:19:48 > 0:19:50
0:19:50 > 0:19:54particular agenda, it is an indoctrination towards a subject.
0:19:54 > 0:19:57Literature is there to introduce you to a whole range of experiences.
0:19:58 > 0:20:06There is much more to Scottish history than William Wallace.
0:20:06 > 0:20:10know there is. But you will know first-hand, history and Ireland is
0:20:10 > 0:20:15almost more controversial than the present. And a milder form, these
0:20:15 > 0:20:20issues arise in Scotland as well and it is no accident that certain
0:20:20 > 0:20:24people with certain political views might provoke different aspects.
0:20:24 > 0:20:29teach history. History can be interpreted in different ways
0:20:29 > 0:20:33depending on what source materials you look at. We teach people to
0:20:33 > 0:20:40think and argue, we do not indoctrinate. Are you trusting and
0:20:40 > 0:20:46that front? Yes. We are in a country that is blighted by bigotry.
0:20:47 > 0:20:53We need to look at the hot potatoes and get away from that stuff. And
0:20:54 > 0:20:58move on. It takes you beyond the flag. It takes you deeper. We want