:00:10. > :00:13.it has to be in the speech. thank you both very much.
:00:13. > :00:23.Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, should the Scottish Parliament
:00:23. > :00:29.except Iain Duncan Smith's welfare reforms? They are among the
:00:29. > :00:36.government's flagship policies but Holyrood art suggesting throwing
:00:36. > :00:41.some of them out. -- are suggesting. And the government here wants to
:00:41. > :00:45.spend millions on preventing illness and crime. We visit
:00:45. > :00:48.Liverpool, where they already have a prevention system in place. Does
:00:48. > :00:53.it work? An outbreak of peace between the
:00:53. > :00:57.SNP and Labour threatened to place Holyrood in an almost unprecedented
:00:57. > :01:00.situation. Because the UK Government's welfare reforms
:01:00. > :01:06.affects how the Scottish government operates, they have to be signed
:01:06. > :01:10.off by the Scottish Parliament. But the two biggest parties today
:01:10. > :01:15.agreed that the reforms should not be passed without the chance to
:01:15. > :01:21.pick holes in it and perhaps even rejecting some reforms out right.
:01:21. > :01:26.This is an issue on which we can't be silent. We have responsibility
:01:26. > :01:30.to speak out for the vulnerable and disadvantaged members of our
:01:30. > :01:35.society. The system is broken, rock -- we recognise that, but we have
:01:35. > :01:40.to make sure it is reformed in a way that is fundamentally fair and
:01:40. > :01:44.it does not simply pass responsibility elsewhere. I will
:01:45. > :01:48.stand shoulder to shoulder with any group to challenge the UK
:01:48. > :01:53.Government's welfare reform agenda but attacks but poorest members of
:01:53. > :01:58.our society but equally I will challenge the SNP to meet their
:01:58. > :02:02.responsibilities as well. Nicola Sturgeon started talking about the
:02:02. > :02:09.SNP's aspirations independence. For a party that wants control over the
:02:09. > :02:15.welfare state, they need to be organised when key aspects are
:02:15. > :02:20.devolved to Scotland. That left smaller groups of Conservative and
:02:20. > :02:25.Lib Dem MPs to defend the reforms. How can it be right that we ask to
:02:25. > :02:30.be unemployed to move from benefit into work when they are losing more
:02:30. > :02:35.than 95p for a free additional pound but they earned. The poor of
:02:35. > :02:39.being taxed at a rate which far exceeds the wealthy. It is right
:02:39. > :02:43.that we keep pressing for appropriate safeguards but claiming
:02:43. > :02:49.to be in favour of reform but holding the feud that any cuts to
:02:49. > :02:55.any benefits or any taking of any demands is automatically unfair is
:02:55. > :02:59.no longer credible. Or what happens next? Can SNPs
:02:59. > :03:07.throw at legislation that is reserved at Westminster or is this
:03:07. > :03:17.a show of defiance before they sign on the dotted line? Jackie Baillie
:03:17. > :03:20.
:03:20. > :03:23.and John Dickie are with me now. John Mason, the technicalities of
:03:23. > :03:28.this, can the Scottish Parliament say, no, we don't want these
:03:28. > :03:37.reforms? For technically we don't have a veto but we were told by
:03:38. > :03:43.David Cameron... I mean technically, because there are aspects of these
:03:43. > :03:47.reforms that impact on how the Scottish government operates. Does
:03:47. > :03:53.that give the Scottish Parliament some leverage in these particular
:03:53. > :04:00.areas? It means we are involved in these areas and we have to go back
:04:00. > :04:10.to the UK Government and I'd ask for some changes -- either ask for
:04:10. > :04:12.
:04:12. > :04:16.some changes or an answer, yes or no. At but we do not have a veto.
:04:17. > :04:21.legislative consent motion, if that was not brought to the Scottish
:04:21. > :04:26.Parliament, or if you and Labour voted against it, the British
:04:26. > :04:32.government could just say, we value your opinions, get lost. It would
:04:32. > :04:38.show that they did not value our opinions. Clearly we are going to
:04:38. > :04:47.discuss the details of why this is a bad Bill but I don't think we
:04:47. > :04:51.have been in quite this situation before. Jackie Baillie, when -- you
:04:51. > :04:59.have been made in Parliament since 1989? So this is unprecedented, or
:04:59. > :05:03.isn't it? No, this would be an unprecedented action. I think it
:05:04. > :05:13.signifiers the strength of feeling in Parliament and what would happen
:05:13. > :05:16.as a consequence, should Parliament motion, is that it sends an
:05:16. > :05:20.extremely strong signal to the government in Westminster about the
:05:20. > :05:24.strength of feeling in Scotland, but I hope it opens up the channels
:05:24. > :05:30.of communication to some quite substantive amendments being made.
:05:30. > :05:35.The context in which we are examining this Bill, of course the
:05:35. > :05:39.system needs improving, but what we are witnessing are sweeping changes
:05:39. > :05:46.that actually are an attack on the most vulnerable in our society.
:05:46. > :05:51.Something like �2 billion will be stripped out of Scotland. What are
:05:51. > :05:57.you suggesting? I am struck by this new found friends should. You are
:05:57. > :06:02.suggesting that you and the SNP might get together and agree on
:06:02. > :06:08.changes you might like and so to London, if you want us to pass this,
:06:08. > :06:14.do this. Four I would expect a process of negotiation in any event
:06:14. > :06:17.but I am very pleased that the SNP decided to support Labour's
:06:17. > :06:27.decision today, although that was in some dispute in their group
:06:27. > :06:28.
:06:28. > :06:33.meeting today. You are only going now. -- niggling. It is only right
:06:33. > :06:37.and proper that we come together to do this. There is responsibility on
:06:37. > :06:42.the SNP government because this welfare reform viewed devolves a
:06:42. > :06:47.number of benefits for the Scottish government to deploy. They have
:06:47. > :06:51.been light on detail as well. For a party of independence to believe in
:06:51. > :06:56.control of the welfare state, they have not demonstrated how they will
:06:57. > :07:02.deal with that. John Dickie, I know you disagree profoundly with some
:07:02. > :07:09.of this legislation, but is there any practical steps you think that
:07:09. > :07:13.these two could make to ameliorate the worst effects? Firstly, we are
:07:13. > :07:19.delighted that they have used this opportunity to send an unequivocal
:07:19. > :07:22.message to the UK Government that this Bill poses an unacceptable
:07:23. > :07:27.risk to tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of families and
:07:27. > :07:33.households across Scotland. The challenge now is to build on that
:07:33. > :07:38.consensus, to use that as leverage to seek to influence and to end the
:07:38. > :07:45.UK Government's proposals so that we will minimise the damage they
:07:45. > :07:50.are likely to do... I am sorry to sound technical, but Jackie was
:07:50. > :07:55.making the point that some benefits are devolved to Scotland through
:07:55. > :08:00.this process. Given that they would then be administered through the
:08:00. > :08:03.Scottish government or its agencies, you still don't have any power of
:08:03. > :08:07.veto so you would have to if push came to shove simply administered
:08:07. > :08:16.these benefits in the way that the British government wants. Is that
:08:16. > :08:20.right? Ultimately, yes. But I am an optimist. You are basically right
:08:20. > :08:24.in the facts of the case but in the next stage one of the committees at
:08:24. > :08:29.Holyrood, I think the health and sports committee, is going to look
:08:29. > :08:36.at this in much more detail. Then we will see if Labour had
:08:36. > :08:46.amendments they think we should put through. We may agree on these or
:08:46. > :08:46.
:08:46. > :08:55.not, but that then goes back to the UK Parliament. The other thing
:08:55. > :08:58.We'll come back to you. Now, the notion of preventative spending
:08:59. > :09:01.became a bit of a buzzword in last month's Scottish budget when the
:09:01. > :09:05.Finance Secretary John Swinney unveiled what he labelled a
:09:05. > :09:07.decisive shift in goverment spending. In particular, he
:09:07. > :09:10.announced a �500 million boost targeting adult social care, early
:09:10. > :09:12.years and re-offending. But what exactly is preventative spending,
:09:12. > :09:22.and what does it mean? David Allison's been to Liverpool where
:09:22. > :09:31.
:09:31. > :09:36.they have been taking this approach Even the rockers and the 1950s were
:09:36. > :09:42.told by their granny so that prevention is better than cure. The
:09:42. > :09:52.idea is that concentrated spending to stop things go wrong and the
:09:52. > :10:00.first place six my letter. It can include buildings as well as more
:10:00. > :10:06.obvious things such such as education. Liverpool has always
:10:06. > :10:14.been remarkably similar to Glasgow. Glasgow shares many of the health,
:10:14. > :10:18.social and economic issues of Liverpool. But the Glasgow
:10:18. > :10:23.effective also means that the same problems has a worse effect north
:10:23. > :10:29.of the border. In health, in Liverpool, as well as encouraging
:10:29. > :10:39.hostile changes, they are finding that health can be improved by
:10:39. > :10:43.spending in areas not necessarily connected to health. Smoking, or
:10:43. > :10:52.wait management, alcohol, mental health promotion, all those kind of
:10:52. > :11:00.things. They are part of the problem. It is a cultural, late
:11:01. > :11:05.into other issues around a regeneration, education, housing.
:11:05. > :11:13.They all have a part to play. Prevent overspending in education
:11:13. > :11:16.will improve the public health. Spending on housing will improve at
:11:16. > :11:26.the public health. Spending on transport will improve the public
:11:26. > :11:28.
:11:28. > :11:34.health. People have attempted to measure how in reducing the cost of
:11:34. > :11:39.public transport actually impacts on the public health.
:11:39. > :11:44.You could say that 80-year-old Margaret is preventative spending
:11:44. > :11:48.in action. Order people who injure themselves enough for often it
:11:48. > :11:56.discharged from hospital and there have another accident and require
:11:56. > :12:02.permanent residential care. Now, up to six weeks of residential care is
:12:02. > :12:12.provided. This preventative spend and prevents long-term hospital
:12:12. > :12:18.
:12:18. > :12:23.care. Delayed discharge money has been paid to their acute care. We
:12:23. > :12:27.cannot find care for those people to go back home. So what we are
:12:27. > :12:31.doing here, they come straight here once they are discharged, we then
:12:31. > :12:41.start looking for a care package to get them back, again. It says money
:12:41. > :12:51.as well. There pull has paid him no delayed a discharge fines, so that
:12:51. > :12:54.
:12:54. > :12:57.is great. -- Liverpool. Liverpool is finding that preventative
:12:57. > :13:07.spending need not involve long-term intervention to achieve a long-term
:13:07. > :13:09.
:13:09. > :13:14.effect. In alcohol misuse, there is good evidence that brief
:13:14. > :13:23.intervention early, that can have a real impact on things like hospital
:13:23. > :13:28.admissions. Not far from the city centre, Toxteth allies in the
:13:28. > :13:33.shadow of the city's Anglican cathedral. It still there's plenty
:13:33. > :13:39.of signs of deprivation, but are making the set -- the case for
:13:39. > :13:45.preventative spending in times of economic recession is not easy. It
:13:45. > :13:50.can be difficult to present the case. We have had to manage it very
:13:50. > :13:57.carefully. Changes always frightening and I think you have to
:13:57. > :14:06.explain it to people very carefully. It is easier to persuade people to
:14:06. > :14:15.invest in prevention and times of plenty and when you have going -- a
:14:15. > :14:21.growing the resources. It is harder in times of austerity. Liverpool
:14:21. > :14:26.still remembers that Toxteth riots, a clear of example of what happens
:14:26. > :14:36.when things go wrong. Crime is also an area were preventative spending
:14:36. > :14:40.
:14:40. > :14:46.can play a role. Problem youngsters can still end up him petty crime,
:14:46. > :14:49.at a cost to them and a society. When the police and the rest of the
:14:49. > :14:59.criminal-justice system gets involved, the cost rises
:14:59. > :15:00.
:15:00. > :15:04.accordingly. Youngsters at the school are being helped it to avoid
:15:04. > :15:07.getting into more serious trouble. Often they can be a simple and
:15:07. > :15:17.showing them how to budget and avoid getting into financial
:15:17. > :15:17.
:15:17. > :15:23.difficulty. When there is no money, it can lead to crime. Crime at
:15:23. > :15:28.Leeds at a more serious crime, bad health, bad planning. We have seen
:15:28. > :15:34.people who have not had the advantage of a financial planning
:15:34. > :15:38.background end up victims as a result of that. You could say that
:15:38. > :15:44.preventative spending is an idea which has been around for a fire,
:15:44. > :15:48.but it is there a political buzz word in Scotland at a time of
:15:48. > :15:52.unprecedented spending cuts. The Glasgow effect might not be present
:15:52. > :16:02.in Liverpool, but we might be about to see the Liverpool effect in
:16:02. > :16:09.
:16:09. > :16:14.John, do you broadly welcome this idea of prevention and a different
:16:14. > :16:24.approach or do you see any dangers in it? It is something I had been
:16:24. > :16:26.
:16:26. > :16:36.arguing for for a long time. Preventing child poverty and the
:16:36. > :16:42.cost that comes from that, it can cost up to �1.5 billion. Far better
:16:42. > :16:52.to invest a �1.5 billion in early education, childcare and supporting
:16:52. > :16:54.
:16:54. > :16:58.families. There is real opportunities here for the Scottish
:16:58. > :17:08.government to demonstrate his commitment to prevented of spending
:17:08. > :17:08.
:17:08. > :17:13.by spending and investing in it are poorest households. Presumably, the
:17:13. > :17:16.principle of the thing you welcome? Absolutely. At the heart of
:17:16. > :17:24.Labour's manifesto was a preventative strategy at the heart
:17:24. > :17:30.of child poverty. Similarly, for elderly people, being here at four
:17:30. > :17:35.in their own home. It prevents and plant emergency admissions at
:17:35. > :17:41.hospital. My one regret is that we all talk about prevention, but the
:17:41. > :17:44.reality is that a lot of the government's funding framework is
:17:44. > :17:49.that they are forcing local authorities do only deal with those
:17:49. > :17:59.in crisis. The voluble preventative work that we all want to see is not
:17:59. > :18:10.
:18:10. > :18:16.getting funding. -- a valuable. John Mason, the prevention spending
:18:16. > :18:21.means of that the funds have to come from elsewhere. Yes, the
:18:21. > :18:26.finance committee has been looking at this in great detail. There are
:18:26. > :18:33.good examples of this in Nottingham. Keeping families together saves
:18:33. > :18:37.money. That also means working with typical teenagers. It is very
:18:37. > :18:43.difficult to judge whether this is having an effect other than
:18:43. > :18:47.anecdotal. It has gone further than that already. There are good
:18:47. > :18:54.examples in the United States, and in Nottingham, we have some
:18:54. > :19:04.ourselves as well. We have to leave it there.
:19:04. > :19:14.A quick look at tomorrow's front pages, most of which lead with
:19:14. > :19:20.
:19:20. > :19:30.That is all we have time for tonight. I will be back again
:19:30. > :19:30.
:19:30. > :20:17.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 46 seconds
:20:17. > :20:27.Those winds will cost up to 50 mph or 60 mph. In parts of Northern
:20:27. > :20:36.
:20:36. > :20:44.Ireland and western Scotland as By Friday, most of the shares will