:00:10. > :00:14.Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, the SNP celebrate their election
:00:14. > :00:18.victory at their annual conference in Inverness. But of course, the
:00:18. > :00:21.main objective of the party is supposed to be independence. Are
:00:21. > :00:25.they still committed to that, or would they settle for something
:00:25. > :00:28.less? Good evening. It's bigger than ever,
:00:28. > :00:32.with 2000 attending and diplomats and media from around the world.
:00:32. > :00:35.They say it will add more than �3 million to the economy of Inverness.
:00:35. > :00:38.It sounds like a showbiz awards ceremony and actually, the SNP
:00:38. > :00:43.conference which started today may be more like the Oscars than a
:00:43. > :00:46.policy forum. The opinion polls continue to run their way, but its
:00:46. > :00:51.devolution max or independence lite, depending on your choice of jargon,
:00:51. > :00:55.that people seem to want more than independence. In a moment, we will
:00:55. > :00:58.discuss how nationalists can square that particular circle. But first,
:00:58. > :01:08.Derek Bateman returns to the scene of past SNP glories, not far from
:01:08. > :01:12.here. For some nationalists, you can
:01:12. > :01:22.forget Bannenberg demand Holyrood it for a place that still zings
:01:22. > :01:30.with the resonance of a Bellion and victory - here in Sunny Govan.
:01:30. > :01:35.SNP have won the constituency of Thatcher wanted to take over
:01:35. > :01:41.Scotland and make this just another little bit of Tory England or. The
:01:41. > :01:44.message from here is, you are not on. In the '70s and '80s,
:01:44. > :01:49.devolution seemed a distant prospect, never mind independence.
:01:49. > :01:55.The old joke round - what is the difference between devolution and
:01:55. > :01:59.evolution? The answer - devolution takes longer. Govan Town Hall was
:01:59. > :02:04.the crucible of momentous events in nationalist history, but events
:02:04. > :02:09.flared briefly and died. So different from today. Tom, do you
:02:09. > :02:12.think the people who came here for the by-elections that the SNP won
:02:12. > :02:17.in the '70s and '80s, would they ever have thought the SNP would be
:02:17. > :02:20.in the position it is in today? can't imagine that they would have
:02:20. > :02:25.expected that in a relatively short time after what happened here. That
:02:25. > :02:29.the SNP would be the party of government in Scotland and that
:02:29. > :02:32.they would be the establishment, despite their past of being an
:02:32. > :02:35.anti-establishment party, in particular when you look at the
:02:35. > :02:41.electoral system we use in Scotland, the proportional system that was
:02:41. > :02:44.meant to prevent one party winning a majority, it is remarkable.
:02:44. > :02:48.with a surprise election majority, the pressure has come on the
:02:48. > :02:52.nationalists, with obvious questions. Why delay the
:02:52. > :02:57.referendum? Scotland has already waited 300 years. And why is there
:02:57. > :03:00.no finely detailed policy on areas like defence, pensions and can see?
:03:01. > :03:04.For the time being, they need to avoid being too specific, because
:03:04. > :03:09.if they are specific, they will give ammunition to their opponents
:03:09. > :03:14.to use against them. So for the time being, they should avoid
:03:14. > :03:19.saying too much. Eventually, as the referendum is scheduled, they will
:03:20. > :03:24.have to be more specific. Almost every test of opinion is good news
:03:25. > :03:29.for the nationalists. Even be being England seemed to back independence.
:03:29. > :03:33.So BP's investment in another a huge oilfield and the killing off
:03:33. > :03:36.in London of the carbon Catcher project he this week leave the
:03:36. > :03:41.other parties floundering. Maybe the Unionist parties are not
:03:41. > :03:45.thinking very much about Scotland. The UK-based politicians certainly
:03:45. > :03:49.do not seem to take Scotland seriously. The Unionist parties
:03:49. > :03:55.here also seen to be focused more on the UK level of governance
:03:55. > :03:59.rather than the Holyrood level. That is a problem. But there is a
:03:59. > :04:07.glaring hole in any opposition demands for answers. What is their
:04:07. > :04:11.own solution? To Labour, the Lib Dems and Tories think this is
:04:11. > :04:16.enough? Can any of them craft a narrative that says more than no to
:04:16. > :04:21.independence and stop the SNP? think the SNP is driving this
:04:21. > :04:26.agenda. They have managed to get the opposition parties to react
:04:26. > :04:30.rather than come up with their own positive vision of a devolved
:04:30. > :04:35.Scotland and how Scotland can remain in the UK. The Commission
:04:35. > :04:38.recommendations were timid, in my opinion. Some economists have said
:04:38. > :04:43.that if this is an active as planned, it could hurt Scotland. So
:04:43. > :04:48.they need to come up with a more radical plan. We have to move in
:04:48. > :04:54.the direction of fiscal autonomy, or they will not have any positive
:04:54. > :04:59.alternative to offer the Scottish people. This may, Alex Salmond had
:04:59. > :05:04.his Govan moment, a surprise electoral majority. If he settles
:05:04. > :05:14.for independence lite, he may please the Scots. But nationalists
:05:14. > :05:18.
:05:18. > :05:21.like Margo MacDonald who won here may never forgive him.
:05:21. > :05:23.I am joined now live from the Inverness conference by Alex Neil,
:05:23. > :05:33.the SNP's minister for infrastructure and capital
:05:33. > :05:34.
:05:34. > :05:41.investment. Are you convinced that some sort of
:05:41. > :05:47.fundamental constitutional change is inevitable? I think it is. And
:05:47. > :05:51.the reason for that is not just the fact that people want to run up a
:05:51. > :05:55.Saltire that is independent above the castle of Edinburgh. It is
:05:55. > :05:58.because the economic situation is now such that many of the solutions
:05:58. > :06:02.to Scotland's problems lie within Scotland, and the Scottish
:06:02. > :06:06.parliament should have the powers to implement those solutions. It is
:06:06. > :06:10.obvious that even if you make maximum use of the limited powers
:06:10. > :06:20.we have, they are not nearly enough to tackle the fundamental problems
:06:20. > :06:21.
:06:21. > :06:27.This talk about a second question on referenda -- on a referendum,
:06:27. > :06:31.and Alex Salmond was talking about it today, what is that about?
:06:31. > :06:36.Basically, we are saying some people have said they would like to
:06:36. > :06:40.see a second question when it comes to the referendum. What he is
:06:40. > :06:45.saying and the Scottish government are saying are, we will listen to
:06:45. > :06:50.what they have to say. Malcolm Chisholm, the laid-back SNP, has
:06:50. > :06:57.said he is in favour of devolution max. He needs to tell us what that
:06:57. > :07:02.is. So you do not propose to tell us? How can you have a referendum
:07:02. > :07:08.which is a question about something you are not prepared to define?
:07:08. > :07:11.is not up to us to define devolution max, because we are
:07:11. > :07:17.defining independence and that is what we are primarily concerned
:07:17. > :07:21.about. If others put amendments to the bill, like he could, all other
:07:21. > :07:28.members of the parliament, they are very clearly have to tell us what
:07:28. > :07:32.is there -- what is it they want and what is the definition? So you
:07:32. > :07:36.are inviting Labour up all the other parties to come up with a
:07:36. > :07:42.detailed alternative plan and you are offering on their behalf to put
:07:42. > :07:46.that plan to the voters, is that what this amounts to? They have not
:07:46. > :07:50.made any formal proposals as parties so far, but we have said at
:07:50. > :07:55.this stage we are taking an open mind that we will listen to what
:07:55. > :08:00.people have to say. And clearly at the end of the day, whatever the
:08:00. > :08:04.question and timing and result, we want to make sure there is
:08:04. > :08:10.democratic legitimacy. And so we are prepared to look at
:08:10. > :08:13.entertaining a second question. are you so keen on this? You have a
:08:13. > :08:20.specific mandate from your manifesto for a referendum which
:08:20. > :08:28.says, do you want to be independent or not? We have got a mandate for a
:08:28. > :08:32.referendum but we have always been a career and said many times -- we
:08:32. > :08:36.have always been clear and said many times than maybe walk -- more
:08:36. > :08:44.than one question in the referendum. Would you entertain a question
:08:44. > :08:51.where people could vote for the status quo? What might not -- which
:08:51. > :09:01.might be now as well as the Scotland Bill. I do not know who is
:09:01. > :09:04.advocating the status quo. There is talk of fiscal autonomy, but that
:09:05. > :09:10.has not been defined by the Conservatives. The Labour Party do
:09:10. > :09:17.not know what they want. So nobody has argued for the status quo, as
:09:17. > :09:25.far as I know. Given that the opinion polls and surveys tend to
:09:25. > :09:28.show that people would probably be in favour of something like
:09:29. > :09:35.devolution Max -- devolution max, rather than independence, why not
:09:35. > :09:41.go for that? What is devolution max? If the other parties are
:09:41. > :09:44.advocating that, they have to spell it out. It is not up to the SNP. We
:09:44. > :09:51.are spelling out a case for independence and not putting a case
:09:51. > :09:54.for devolution max, however you define it. We are Democrats and if
:09:54. > :10:00.people are arguing for another democratic option, the First
:10:00. > :10:04.Minister has said he will look at that. But a vote for some sort of
:10:04. > :10:09.fiscal autonomy would in your book be an awful lot better than having
:10:09. > :10:14.a straightforward referendum on independence and losing it, that is
:10:14. > :10:18.why you are proposing the second question, isn't it? We are not
:10:18. > :10:22.proposing the second question at this stage. We are prepared to
:10:22. > :10:27.contemplate a second question on the ballot paper. It is a very
:10:27. > :10:33.different proposition indeed. And it is not up to us. If somebody
:10:33. > :10:36.wants to put an amendment -- an amendment to the bill when it comes
:10:36. > :10:40.before the Scottish Parliament arguing for his second question on
:10:40. > :10:45.devolution max, he has to tell the people of Scotland, what is
:10:45. > :10:52.devolution max? What does it mean? Were we have control over all
:10:52. > :10:57.taxation in Scotland, they say in defence policy, elements of control
:10:57. > :11:03.over economic policy -- a say in the. Representation in the European
:11:03. > :11:07.Union, and what kind? They have to define what they mean. Thank you
:11:07. > :11:10.very much indeed. I'm joined now by two SNP-watchers. Gerry Hassan
:11:10. > :11:17.writes blogs, books and articles on the subject. And Ewan Crawford used
:11:17. > :11:21.to work for the party, and now lectures on media. In a way, what
:11:21. > :11:26.does interest me about this second question, and I take what he says
:11:26. > :11:30.about the other parties having to define what it is, Alex Salmond
:11:30. > :11:36.seems to talk about little else at the moment, so they are clearly
:11:36. > :11:40.very keen on it. One think the SNP are doing, they want to park
:11:40. > :11:48.themselves on the majority rising tide of Scottish opinion and they
:11:48. > :11:52.dare not Park on the minority and lose a referendum. But he is
:11:52. > :11:57.fascinating, he is out sourcing the devolution max option to the
:11:57. > :12:00.opposition parties which is not how would works out. If you are in
:12:00. > :12:05.favour of devolution max, the government is duty-bound to come up
:12:05. > :12:10.with proposals rather than just say, it is down to Malcolm Chisholm and
:12:10. > :12:14.the opposition parties. It is slightly odd! This is a referendum,
:12:14. > :12:20.do you want independence like we the Government, and we will have
:12:20. > :12:23.produced a white paper by that time, do you want, what? The SNP believes
:12:23. > :12:29.an independence and if you look at what they said before the election
:12:29. > :12:33.when they published a white paper on the referendum, the same wording
:12:33. > :12:39.was there. They were inviting other parties to join in a debate. And
:12:39. > :12:46.this is what is going on. The SNP wants to be inclusive, it has a big
:12:46. > :12:50.tent approach. It recognises a reality, devolution max, financial
:12:50. > :12:54.independence, does seem to be a population -- a popular option. So
:12:54. > :13:00.it seems to be reasonable to say that if you want that on the ballot
:13:00. > :13:06.paper, spell it out. It is important the direction of travel.
:13:06. > :13:11.It is interesting to me the centre of constitutional gravity has moved
:13:11. > :13:15.at some pace towards much greater powers. Obviously, that is
:13:15. > :13:24.interesting for the SNP. cynical translation would be to
:13:24. > :13:28.quote David Cameron... It is a win- win for them, this second question.
:13:28. > :13:33.Unless people reject both, the SNP get a considerable amount on one
:13:33. > :13:38.version or all of what they want. It is not a disaster for the SNP,
:13:38. > :13:43.is it? We will get substantial constitutional change. The decision
:13:43. > :13:47.for people in Scotland is between substantial extra powers for the
:13:47. > :13:53.parliament or independence. But if you take out devolution max from
:13:53. > :13:58.opinion polls, independence against the status quo becomes much tighter.
:13:58. > :14:04.So it is not an open and shut case for the SNP. What do you think the
:14:05. > :14:11.SNP should be wanting? There has been a lot of talk about post
:14:11. > :14:16.something, posts nationalism. And we have had people saying, it is
:14:16. > :14:21.all fashioned, what is the difference between posts
:14:21. > :14:26.nationalism and old-fashioned nationalism? It means that you are
:14:26. > :14:31.quite comfortable with sharing sovereignty. In a Scottish context,
:14:31. > :14:39.that would mean that wherever we end up, close to independence,
:14:39. > :14:46.there would be an element of British cooperation. So it
:14:46. > :14:52.recognises independence as relevant. The language of voting for
:14:52. > :14:56.separation. As people try to nail that. It deals with those realities.
:14:56. > :15:06.There will be the British Union that is beyond, I think, a Social
:15:06. > :15:06.
:15:06. > :15:11.Union. Even in the most independent scenario. Do you agree with that?
:15:11. > :15:15.Inevitably, even in the European Union, you do have substantial co-
:15:15. > :15:20.operation. And it is interesting that you're talking about David
:15:20. > :15:24.Cameron talking about Alex Salmond and Labour talking about, it has to
:15:24. > :15:29.be independence or the status quo. Because what they do want is for us
:15:29. > :15:34.to be completely polarised. But the SNP understand it is not that, we
:15:34. > :15:41.do not have Albania any more. Even if you want it to be separate, it
:15:41. > :15:46.could not. This sounds so lovely that it could not possibly be
:15:46. > :15:53.negative. But what does it mean? That is the problem with the SNP.
:15:53. > :16:00.Does that mean, we do not have a British Army or foreign service?
:16:00. > :16:07.Presumably, the answer is yes? What is this British dimension? This can
:16:07. > :16:11.federalism? The SNP is not in favour of that. It is in favour of
:16:11. > :16:16.independence. The reality of independent nations is that we do
:16:16. > :16:21.share sovereignty. We do in the European Union all the time. It
:16:21. > :16:28.would not mean a fiscal Union. It means having control of Euro tax
:16:28. > :16:33.policy. It would mean having Scottish defence forces and a
:16:33. > :16:36.Scottish foreign policy. Would that be cooperation in those areas?
:16:37. > :16:41.Absolutely. And that is what countries do. When you have
:16:41. > :16:46.sovereign power, you have the opportunity to share its sovereign
:16:46. > :16:50.power. I used to live in East Anglia and they have American air
:16:50. > :16:56.bases. Why? Because it suits the interests of the British Government
:16:56. > :16:59.to do that. Presumably, if a Scottish government thought there
:16:59. > :17:06.was defence co-operation, some sort of defence co-operation, it could
:17:06. > :17:10.do that just as Britain does with America. It does not mean it is
:17:10. > :17:13.independence lite, it is just reality. I do not see a British
:17:13. > :17:19.dimension to that, that happens with a lot of countries in northern
:17:19. > :17:25.Europe. Can you be pregnant or half pregnant? In the state of the world,
:17:25. > :17:29.you cannot be half pregnant. You have nations there are like... Is
:17:29. > :17:35.green land a nation or a nation at peace -- or in nation-state? There
:17:35. > :17:43.is a lot of ambiguity. The issue is not devolution max or independence
:17:43. > :17:49.lite. What motivates party members from the SNP? They are very
:17:49. > :17:55.flexible. What is the bottom line? Scottish Treasury, Scottish
:17:55. > :18:00.economic policy and the issue of nuclear weapons. It is very, very
:18:00. > :18:08.flexible. I still do not see what this British dimension is, this
:18:08. > :18:14.Social Union. We are going to have a social union in that we are going
:18:14. > :18:19.to watch Neighbours... There is going to be an element of political
:18:20. > :18:24.union and co-operation. The reality of it... Are you suggesting an
:18:24. > :18:29.independent Scotland and the rest of the UK would go to walk? I do
:18:29. > :18:33.not -- a lot of what you said seems to suggest that would not happen,
:18:33. > :18:36.but nobody imagines that would happen, so the content of what
:18:37. > :18:43.you're saying about this British dimension is pretty vacuous, it
:18:43. > :18:47.isn't it? The debate is polarised. We have a house of Commons Scottish
:18:47. > :18:51.Affairs Committee having an inquiry into separation, that is the way
:18:51. > :18:56.they want to frame the debate. But the reality of independence is that
:18:56. > :19:01.countries are not separate. And I think people in Scottish political
:19:01. > :19:06.classes are just waking up to that, that countries have not moved on --
:19:06. > :19:16.that countries have moved on. continued!
:19:16. > :19:16.
:19:16. > :19:26.A front pages are all about the death of Colonel Gaddafi. Have we
:19:26. > :19:26.
:19:27. > :19:32.got the Scotsman? A picture of Colonel Gaddafi after he is dead.
:19:32. > :19:36.Battered and bloody, he pleads for his life, says the Scottish Daily
:19:36. > :19:38.Mail. Gaddafi is killed by rebel fighters. And the same pictures and
:19:38. > :19:48.the Scotsman on the front of the Telegraph.
:19:48. > :19:56.
:19:56. > :20:03.Hello, much more cloud across the country tonight compared to last
:20:03. > :20:08.night, so it will not be anything like as called first thing. It
:20:08. > :20:13.should turn bright in eastern areas and it will -- and there will be
:20:13. > :20:17.some sunshine. For most of England and Wales, it should be a dry day.
:20:17. > :20:22.A bit of sunshine will come through, lifting the temperatures higher
:20:23. > :20:27.than Thursday. The breeze will pick up and it will come in from the
:20:27. > :20:35.South West, bringing much to from the Atlantic and parts of south-
:20:35. > :20:40.west England. -- bringing the moisture. We may get breaks in the
:20:40. > :20:45.cloud and sunshine. Brighter in the east of Northern Ireland. Some rain
:20:45. > :20:49.of early on. And soggy day through parts of western and Central
:20:49. > :20:56.Scotland. Is could brighten up through the Moray Firth and that
:20:56. > :21:03.could lift the temperatures -- thinks. Rain on Friday and Saturday
:21:03. > :21:08.in Northern Ireland. And Scotland. The breeze will pick up elsewhere