:00:10. > :00:12.majority of the party. Thank you Tonight on Newsnight Scotland:
:00:12. > :00:15.should the independence referendum have a second question on more
:00:15. > :00:18.powers for the Scottish parliament? The SNP's triumphant party
:00:18. > :00:20.conference marked the beginning of the referendum campaign but will
:00:20. > :00:24.the opposition parties decide to back a second option on devolution
:00:24. > :00:34.max, or will they risk everything on a straight yes or no to
:00:34. > :00:36.
:00:36. > :00:38.Good evening. There is no equivocation about the result the
:00:38. > :00:41.SNP want from this referendum but for the unionist parties, it
:00:41. > :00:44.presents a dilemma. The Government has offered them a second option on
:00:44. > :00:47.some form of devolution max. Increased powers for the Scottish
:00:47. > :00:51.Parliament is consistently the most popular constitutional option in
:00:51. > :00:54.polls. So would any of the opposition parties benefit from
:00:54. > :00:57.backing what seems to be a popular option, or would they merely be
:00:57. > :01:00.giving Alex Salmond hid second best option if independence is rejected?
:01:00. > :01:10.In a moment we'll hear from the leaders of Labour and the Lib Dems,
:01:10. > :01:12.
:01:12. > :01:16.The SNP's conference at the weekend was a chance for party members to
:01:16. > :01:20.give themselves a collective pat on the back. But the nationalists know
:01:20. > :01:25.it is just the beginning of the road in the campaign for
:01:25. > :01:31.independence. And there is still a long way along that road to go, not
:01:31. > :01:35.least deciding what is going to be on any referendum paper. Would be
:01:35. > :01:39.one question or two? The SNP say that they are happy for the
:01:39. > :01:42.opposition parties to decide on that well. We are defining
:01:42. > :01:50.independence and it is independence that we are primarily concerned
:01:50. > :01:55.about. If others put amendments to the bill for example, to have a
:01:55. > :02:02.second question, then they clearly have to tell us what their second
:02:02. > :02:05.question is and how they define it. And at the weekend, the First
:02:05. > :02:15.Minister Alex Salmond repeated the offer. What is definitely going to
:02:15. > :02:15.
:02:15. > :02:21.be on a ballot paper is a yes / no question to independence. What I've
:02:21. > :02:30.said Islam open to including a second question on what is called
:02:30. > :02:36.devolution Max. -- what I have said is I am open. But we need detailed
:02:36. > :02:40.so people can be judged on that question as well. It signals what
:02:40. > :02:44.could be one of the twists and turns in the road towards a
:02:44. > :02:49.referendum, after all to questions could be something of a win at
:02:49. > :02:56.winner for the SNP. Scotland's government could still get
:02:56. > :03:01.increased powers. The SNP at least will think that is going to the
:03:01. > :03:07.right direction. What will the opposition parties do? Will they
:03:07. > :03:11.opt for devolution Max? For having learnt the lessons from a Scottish
:03:11. > :03:16.Parliament? Labour, it appears, are not falling for that one again.
:03:16. > :03:20.SNP have got to explain what it is there are trying to do. It is
:03:20. > :03:23.lovely -- a lovely phrase but it is not clear what it means. What we
:03:23. > :03:27.need when it comes to a referendum, and we should get on with that
:03:27. > :03:31.referendum, is a clear choice. Do you want to be part of the latter
:03:31. > :03:37.Kingdom or not? The SNP have a mandate to get on with that
:03:37. > :03:41.referendum. The four contenders for this challenging post are here...
:03:41. > :03:44.And what of the Conservatives? Their leadership contenders all
:03:44. > :03:50.seem to agree on this one and none of them think a second question is
:03:50. > :03:54.a good idea. I'm player I think it should be a clear question, do we
:03:54. > :03:58.wish to renew the 300 year-old partnership with the United Kingdom
:03:58. > :04:04.or do we wish to separate from it? I agree, they should be a straight
:04:04. > :04:09.yes or no. I would go straight yes or no and I want to five -- fight a
:04:09. > :04:17.positive campaign. We seem to have find ourselves in a position where
:04:17. > :04:21.we are waiting for Alex Salmond... At the moment, his looks like it is
:04:21. > :04:24.only the SNP who is in favour of the devolution Max option. The
:04:24. > :04:33.Scottish Liberal Democrats have come up with their Rome question
:04:33. > :04:37.and it is mainly Bix -- of this, what happens if 50 % vote for
:04:37. > :04:44.independence but 99 % for -- a vote for devolution Max? What happens
:04:44. > :04:50.then? The SNP insists it would still be independent --
:04:50. > :04:54.independence. The SNP has to decide how the winner is chosen. Given the
:04:54. > :04:59.SNP have the majority, they potentially control what that
:04:59. > :05:03.decision rule is. The constraints they face include if the opposition
:05:03. > :05:07.parties can persuade more public that what the SNP have in mind,
:05:08. > :05:11.which is saying how far people are willing to go, rather than finding
:05:11. > :05:15.the most popular option, if the public find that perverse because
:05:15. > :05:22.indeed it might well mean that by the less popular option might be
:05:22. > :05:26.declared the winner, the SNP must have to think again. One question
:05:26. > :05:31.or two? Which party would be? It doesn't sound like a difficult
:05:31. > :05:38.decision but it is one that is mired in politics. The road to the
:05:38. > :05:40.referendum may yet reveals some more potholes along the way.
:05:40. > :05:43.I'm joined now by the outgoing Labour leader, Iain Gray, the
:05:43. > :05:49.leader of the Scottish Liberal Democrats Willie Rennie and by the
:05:50. > :05:55.SNP's Derek Mackay. What to make of this invitation to you to come up
:05:55. > :05:58.with some sort of second proposal? A package used a phrase, twisting
:05:58. > :06:04.and turning, and this is part of the twisting and turning, the
:06:04. > :06:09.ducking and diving but we have seen from the SNP not just since the
:06:09. > :06:14.election but for the past five years. It is odd, isn't it? The
:06:14. > :06:17.situation is pretty clear. They made a proposition as part of the
:06:17. > :06:21.manifesto in the election that there would have a referendum on
:06:21. > :06:25.whether Scotland should be part of the letter came to mourn not. They
:06:25. > :06:29.won a majority in that election and so he would think that this would
:06:29. > :06:35.be their opportunity to do that. It is they who seemed so reluctant to
:06:35. > :06:40.go ahead and do it. He would be against... You would prefer to have
:06:40. > :06:46.a straight yes / no. I would but what is more important is what to
:06:46. > :06:54.the Scottish voters expect? What to be a vote for? In the election,
:06:54. > :06:58.they voted for a party which had as of their main planks a referendum.
:06:58. > :07:03.That government should get on and do that. Your reply to the SNP
:07:03. > :07:06.invitation for you to come up with some other proposal to put us a
:07:06. > :07:10.second question would be, thank you very much, why did you get all
:07:10. > :07:16.that? There are two things to say. I don't know what this proposition
:07:16. > :07:21.is... They seem to be saying that you should decide. They're the ones
:07:21. > :07:24.that talk about it. I don't know what it is. Sometimes, I have
:07:24. > :07:27.difficulty working out what they mean when they talk about
:07:27. > :07:31.independence because it seems to change from day to day. Sometimes
:07:31. > :07:39.it means he will shed events with the rest of United Kingdom,
:07:39. > :07:43.sometimes it doesn't. As the first thing. The second thing is that
:07:43. > :07:47.Willie Rennie has made an important point and we saw that in a package,
:07:47. > :07:51.this brings up the prospect that actually the second most popular
:07:52. > :08:01.option could win. We just had an election for First Minister. By
:08:02. > :08:15.
:08:15. > :08:20.came second. Perhaps they should I think that would be a nonsense.
:08:20. > :08:24.Why would we even bother? Even if we were considering it.
:08:24. > :08:31.You would rather the nationalists had a straightforward yes/no
:08:31. > :08:35.referendum. We have to prove to the Scottish
:08:35. > :08:39.people we're not playing jiggery- pokery. They have to be straight.
:08:39. > :08:44.So far they have shown no evidence that they have a proposition which
:08:44. > :08:48.reaches that requirement. If this is of no interest - we have
:08:48. > :08:51.just heard from the leaders of Labour and the Liberal Democrats,
:08:52. > :08:57.and from all for prospective candidates of the Conservatives -
:08:57. > :09:01.then why do you keep banging on about it?
:09:01. > :09:05.And page three of our manifesto - endorsed by the people of Scotland
:09:05. > :09:11.- we said we would discuss full economic powers in the referendum.
:09:11. > :09:15.What is clear is that there are no ideas coming forward from the
:09:15. > :09:19.London parties. Ian Gray may be the leader of the Labour Party, but
:09:19. > :09:23.only some of it. At least three major figures have come out and
:09:23. > :09:29.said that the second question is a good idea and they won the Labour
:09:29. > :09:36.Party to campaign for it. Malcolm Chisholm, Lord Of George Foulkes,
:09:36. > :09:41.and the former First Minister. So you want to decide Labour policy
:09:41. > :09:48.as well as the SNP's policy? We trust the people of Scotland
:09:48. > :09:53.with the options that are out there. Let us say that Labour agree with
:09:53. > :10:01.Ian Gray but they have a few rebels like Malcolm Chisholm. He put an
:10:01. > :10:06.amendment for, then you just say, or, and the interest of democracy,
:10:06. > :10:10.blah blah blah. But officially, Labour, Tories, Liberal Democrats
:10:10. > :10:15.won nothing to do with it. You think that is a valid way of
:10:16. > :10:22.proceeding? We will see what happens...
:10:22. > :10:25.Know, we did be valid, would you consider it?
:10:25. > :10:30.If all the parties to an ultra Unionist line I think the debate
:10:30. > :10:35.with progress. They have just told you what line
:10:35. > :10:38.they're taking. That is the current line. With all
:10:39. > :10:47.due respect one of the leader has here won't even be a leader of his
:10:47. > :10:54.party for much longer. Independence is what we will be camping the for
:10:54. > :11:00.and what we will win. -- campaigning for.
:11:00. > :11:05.He should stop misrepresenting Our position. We are fully behind the
:11:05. > :11:14.Kalman propositions and the bell. We have been full and key players
:11:14. > :11:19.in the Scottish Parliament. More than the SNP, for a long time.
:11:19. > :11:21.The Liberal Democrats have already deserted the bill to set up a new
:11:21. > :11:29.commission for more powers for the Scottish Parliament. That is why we
:11:29. > :11:36.must take it to the people. What about this business, a two-
:11:36. > :11:44.question referendum, I think you, Willie, made the point, if 99% vote
:11:44. > :11:50.for demolition maximum but 51% vote for independence, who wins? --
:11:50. > :11:54.evolution. If a majority of people vote for
:11:54. > :11:59.independence that is what we will get. That is the democratic,
:11:59. > :12:04.transparent choice. If the majority vote for independence it would not
:12:04. > :12:10.be democratic to say you will not get independence.
:12:10. > :12:14.Let me make my point. This is not like 1997 would you couldn't vote
:12:14. > :12:19.for tax-raising powers unless you are in favour of a Parliament
:12:19. > :12:23.itself. These are alternative views. When you contrast alternative views,
:12:24. > :12:29.the single one with the most votes wins.
:12:30. > :12:32.It was not long ago preferential quoting was being endorsed. The
:12:32. > :12:39.Unionist parties then came along and said that was not good enough,
:12:39. > :12:42.not clear enough. So it will be a straightforward yes/no question to
:12:43. > :12:47.independence. That is a black and white question and the people give
:12:47. > :12:51.us their verdict that will be the answer. I am afraid it is a
:12:51. > :12:55.straight forward yes or no question. People will know what our
:12:55. > :13:03.prospectus is and they know what they will get. I do not see what is
:13:03. > :13:08.a on clear. This is a farcical. If you had a
:13:08. > :13:13.professor of politics on this show he would not be able to explain. It
:13:13. > :13:18.is a ridiculous proposition. We did not support a multi- choice
:13:18. > :13:24.referendum because it would not provide a clear result. Now this
:13:24. > :13:32.new proposal still would not give us a clear resolve.
:13:32. > :13:35.What is not clear about a yes/no question?
:13:35. > :13:45.How can you have a referendum in which the second most popular
:13:45. > :13:54.question wins? Ridiculous. Hang on...
:13:54. > :13:58.I am willing to trust the people. Welly: you represent a government -
:13:58. > :14:04.- a party that is part of the Government. Where does that leave
:14:04. > :14:09.the British government? Should day be bound to take the SNP
:14:09. > :14:14.interpretation of what the result means?
:14:14. > :14:18.To be fair, the SNP got their majority and their mandate for a
:14:18. > :14:23.referendum. It is up to them to deliver it and it is their
:14:23. > :14:28.responsibility to make sure it is absolutely clear. You can imagine
:14:28. > :14:32.the circumstances, it is a real possibility now that they might win
:14:32. > :14:35.independence, if there is any doubt whatsoever about the result, their
:14:36. > :14:40.hand would be weakened going to negotiate with the Treasury in
:14:40. > :14:46.London. So Alex Salmond will want to make sure that this mandate is
:14:46. > :14:54.absolutely clear. But he is failing, and defeating his own case. It is
:14:54. > :15:04.in his interests to sort this out otherwise his hand is very we.
:15:04. > :15:04.
:15:04. > :15:12.-- very weak. Ian Gray, if the SNP do not have a clear or questioned
:15:12. > :15:17.in Westminster such a step in. That was a recommendation 11 a week.
:15:17. > :15:22.I do not think that Westminster should step in. The SNP have a
:15:22. > :15:28.mandate to provide a referendum were a clear question. Derek called
:15:28. > :15:36.me a Unionist. I am not. I believe in evolution. He is the one who
:15:36. > :15:46.wants to end it and replace it with ultra-nationalists and. -- Alter
:15:46. > :15:51.nationalism. People will think, you are just at
:15:51. > :15:55.it. You have one your mandate and you are already trying to confuse
:15:55. > :15:59.the issue. If you are convinced with your own case why not get on
:15:59. > :16:02.with it and put it to the people of Scotland?
:16:02. > :16:08.The good news for the SNP and the people of Scotland is independence
:16:08. > :16:15.is getting more popular by the day. Opinion polls show this. Ian Gray
:16:15. > :16:20.is incorrect. I am not an ultra- nationalist. I am Pro evolution.
:16:20. > :16:30.Alex Salmon said during the course of the election that he would bring
:16:30. > :16:34.
:16:34. > :16:40.the referendum for. -- pro- devolution. The referendum is on
:16:40. > :16:45.its way and a clear verdict will follow. The question will be simple
:16:45. > :16:54.and straightforward. A yes/no answer. I am confident that the
:16:54. > :16:58.people of Scotland will say yes. Completely different subject, Ian
:16:58. > :17:03.Gray, Alex Salmond earlier on said that the allegations about Ian
:17:03. > :17:09.Davidson mean he should resign as chair of the House of Commons
:17:09. > :17:13.Scottish Select Committee. Do you agree?
:17:13. > :17:17.A serious allegation has been made but I have not spoke to Ian or
:17:17. > :17:20.anyone who was at that meeting. Another committee member has said
:17:20. > :17:28.that they have no recollection about the incident taking place.