:00:11. > :00:16.to its position as a pillar of Tonight on Newsnight Scotland we
:00:16. > :00:19.hear from the MP at the heart of the allegations over bullying in a
:00:19. > :00:22.Parliamentary committee. We discuss what they are supposed to be
:00:22. > :00:27.achieving in that committee. Also tonight, new Scottish research says
:00:27. > :00:30.we should spend more time taking the mickey out of our children.
:00:30. > :00:32.Good evening. The Scottish Affairs Committee isn't usually the centre
:00:32. > :00:37.of attention at Westminster but today meetsding at thracted a lot
:00:37. > :00:41.of interest, but not because they were discussing health and safety.
:00:41. > :00:45.Would the chairman Ian Davidson show up? Would he resign? Would he
:00:46. > :00:50.apologise for allegedly threateneding remarks made to a
:00:51. > :00:53.female committee member? This is particularly acute... Normal
:00:53. > :00:55.business for the Scottish Affairs Committee at Westminster involves
:00:56. > :01:03.questions to people like the Scottish Secretary Mikeing moor, to
:01:03. > :01:08.keep them on their toes. But remarks allegedly made in committee
:01:08. > :01:12.by chairman Labour's Ian Davidson to Dr Eilidh Whiteford are the
:01:12. > :01:17.centre of attention. She adge alleges he said she would get a
:01:17. > :01:20.doing if it was leaked to media. She says the experience was
:01:20. > :01:24.intimidating. Labour denies the allegation, but insist it took them
:01:24. > :01:28.seriously. So does the First Minister. I spent a lot of years in
:01:28. > :01:33.the House of Commons in the days where everybody said it was a, you
:01:33. > :01:38.know a gentleman's club, a public school, but I can't remember an
:01:38. > :01:43.instant where a Select Committee chairman was had used threatening
:01:43. > :01:46.language against a female member of committee. This was a very serious
:01:46. > :01:49.matter, it is high time everyone took it with that level of
:01:49. > :01:53.seriousness. I was there at committee and obviously the first
:01:54. > :01:57.session was in private so I wouldn't divulge too much of what
:01:57. > :02:02.was said, but nothing aggressive, nothing intimidate tri, nothing
:02:02. > :02:05.hostile was said by any member to any other member. The SNP is
:02:05. > :02:09.calling for chairman of the Scottish Affairs Committee to
:02:09. > :02:13.resign. Ian Davidson is no stranger to using colourful language.
:02:13. > :02:18.notice the way in which efforts are being made to sho shout me down.
:02:18. > :02:23.That is what happened traditionally in Scotland when people challenge
:02:23. > :02:27.the nationalist. Those of us who want to challenge the narrow
:02:27. > :02:33.neofascism have to be prepared, have to be prepared to have the
:02:33. > :02:36.discussions. His supporters say the background is a decision to hold an
:02:36. > :02:38.inquiry into independence or separation as the committee calls
:02:38. > :02:42.it. This afternoon he made a statement ahead of the main
:02:42. > :02:47.business of the committee. I did not threaten anyone and did not
:02:47. > :02:53.intend to threaten anyone. I apologise if anyone took offence
:02:53. > :02:58.but say no threat was made or intended. I think everybody here
:02:58. > :03:01.understands that point. Whiteford say she is won't attend
:03:01. > :03:06.the committee until he takes responsibility for his behaviour.
:03:06. > :03:10.It wasn't an apology, it was a conditional justification of
:03:10. > :03:13.unacceptable behaviour. I think he just had failed to understand that
:03:13. > :03:18.there are no circumstances in which he can offer to give someone a
:03:18. > :03:24.doing where that is not a threat. Maybe we could move on. With the
:03:24. > :03:26.SNP and Labour standing their ground, moving on is going to be
:03:26. > :03:31.rather difficult. Earlier this evening Dr Eilidh Whiteford came
:03:31. > :03:35.into our Westminster studio and I asked her if she accepted the
:03:35. > :03:40.apology? No, I don't. I think we are in the sorry situation tonight
:03:40. > :03:44.that Ian Davidson has made a half hearted and conditional apology but
:03:44. > :03:50.seems to be saying he doesn't have a lot to apologise for. My point is
:03:50. > :03:54.that the larks he is apologising for, are completely unacceptable in
:03:54. > :04:02.any circumstances. It is just not ever an acceptable thing to say.
:04:02. > :04:05.Right. There is a slightly different can't emanating from Mr
:04:05. > :04:08.Davidson and his colleague, they are saying what happened several
:04:08. > :04:11.members of this committee criticised you apparentlyer for
:04:11. > :04:18.what they allege was premature disclosure, whether it was or not,
:04:18. > :04:22.let us leave to one side, and that what he said was he kind of summed
:04:22. > :04:27.it up and said you had had a doing and it was time to move on. That is
:04:27. > :04:30.not what has happened. I think that is about trying to make a
:04:30. > :04:34.deflection away from the issue in hand, which is that he said these
:04:34. > :04:37.thing, he is desperately trying to back away from them, and say they
:04:37. > :04:42.weren't said, but, you know, we know some members of committee
:04:42. > :04:47.didn't hear the remarks but other members of the committee explicitly
:04:47. > :04:51.have confirmed those remarks were made. You know, the idea that I
:04:51. > :04:55.prematurely leaked anything from that committee is falsehood. Right,
:04:55. > :05:00.but what is then the context in which the remarks were made?
:05:00. > :05:04.don't think it matters, I think the issue is it is never ever
:05:04. > :05:07.acceptable to tell somebody they are getting a doing, under any
:05:08. > :05:12.circumstances, and that you know, you can't justify this by context
:05:12. > :05:17.at all, it is just, it is just not on. It is not on in any workplace,
:05:17. > :05:22.I mean when did somebody in your workplace last offer to give ewe
:05:22. > :05:27.doinging? Probably about five minutes ago! The point is, are you
:05:27. > :05:31.saying that you felt scared, that you were going to be subjected to
:05:31. > :05:36.physical violence? Is that what you were saying? I was threatened. I
:05:36. > :05:40.can't imagine any circumstances in which I wouldn't have taken that as
:05:40. > :05:43.an implicit or explicit threat. It is an inherently threatening thing
:05:43. > :05:50.to say. The fact that you know after the meeting, it was clarified
:05:50. > :05:54.to me that the threat was not meant in a sexual way only compounds what
:05:54. > :05:59.was said, and it made me wonder what kind of doing I was supposed
:05:59. > :06:03.to be expecting. You are adamant, when I say people say that to me it
:06:03. > :06:06.is a joke, you are sure he wasn't meaning there... I think it is
:06:06. > :06:10.important to say this, when people try and justify their aggression,
:06:10. > :06:14.they fall back on the excuse that it was a misunderstanding, it was
:06:14. > :06:18.just a joke, a I didn't really mean it or the person interpreted it the
:06:18. > :06:24.wrong way. I am not going to take responsibility for things that Ian
:06:24. > :06:27.Davidson has said, but I am going to say that yeah, of course it was
:06:27. > :06:31.threatening and upsetting. It was inappropriate and I don't think
:06:31. > :06:36.that makes his position tenable. Why, the other point Labour are
:06:36. > :06:41.making is they are saying why did it take so long for this to come
:06:41. > :06:45.out? If you were so upset why didn't you complain? I want to make
:06:45. > :06:51.this clear, I went to the clerk of the committee first thing the next
:06:51. > :06:57.morning, as soon as I possibly could. I didn't get hold of her
:06:57. > :07:02.until later the morning, she wasn't in until later. You know, I went to
:07:02. > :07:05.the clerk of the committee as soon as possible. To see if the
:07:05. > :07:09.recording equipment had still be running and to check if she had
:07:09. > :07:13.heard anything. But, you know, I was clear I wanted to raise this
:07:13. > :07:17.and raise it in a formal way, as soon as possible. Now, you know I
:07:17. > :07:23.was not able to meet with the speaker until yesterday afternoon,
:07:23. > :07:26.but you know, that was, you know not a delay that I considered a
:07:26. > :07:30.lengthy delay. People are trying to deflect this issue from the fact
:07:30. > :07:34.these remarks were made and have not been denied. All right. Will
:07:34. > :07:39.you rejoin the committee, or if you don't want to will someone else
:07:39. > :07:42.from the SNP? I am happy to participate but not while Ian
:07:42. > :07:46.Davidson is chair of it. trouble is the other members don't
:07:46. > :07:51.appear to want him to resign. that is a matter for them. You need
:07:51. > :07:54.to ask them about that. I can't comment on that. I mean, I, you
:07:54. > :07:59.know I am of the view that this is, this is an issue about whether it
:07:59. > :08:03.is ever acceptable to tell a woman that she is getting a doing, and Mr
:08:03. > :08:08.Davidson is not denying the remarks were made. There is no context in
:08:08. > :08:12.which that is OK to say. Right. But so what would your response be?
:08:12. > :08:17.What your critics will say, whatever the rights and wrongs of
:08:17. > :08:20.what was said, even if we accept that it was wrong to say that, to
:08:20. > :08:25.you, that the fact that the SNP will not now have a member on this
:08:25. > :08:29.committee which is having this inquiry into a referendum, smacks
:08:29. > :08:33.of the SNP at the very least using this because they don't really want
:08:33. > :08:36.to be involved with it. No, I think that is absolutely ludicrous. It
:08:36. > :08:41.would be very easy for me to respond to that, but I think, you
:08:41. > :08:45.know, one of the things that you know, I have to say is that the
:08:45. > :08:49.bottom line is he said these thing, how can you expect me to sit across
:08:49. > :08:54.the table from him? That is the fundamental point here. In any
:08:54. > :08:58.other place of work. I am sorry to hear the BBC is a place where that
:08:58. > :09:02.language can be bandyed about. I am not sure if that is in your equal
:09:02. > :09:04.opportunities policy it wouldn't be acceptable in any workplace I have
:09:04. > :09:08.worked in, and I don't think it should be acceptable in the House
:09:08. > :09:12.of Commons. I have to say, I don't think it S I think most members of
:09:12. > :09:18.the House of Commons treat each other with courtesy and respect,
:09:18. > :09:22.regardless of however heated discussions get. Now Ian dirid son
:09:22. > :09:27.wasn't are able to come on the programme tonight but I am joined
:09:27. > :09:32.by the deputy leader of Scotland Labour MPs Willie Bain. What is
:09:32. > :09:36.your account of what happened? evening. It has been difficult to
:09:36. > :09:40.get a definitive account, because what has been interesting is the
:09:40. > :09:44.opposition members of the committee, the Conservative and Liberal
:09:44. > :09:48.Democrat members have said that they couldn't detect anything that
:09:49. > :09:53.was intimidatery in what Ian Davidson said. He was right today,
:09:53. > :09:58.to apologise to Dr Eilidh Whiteford for any offence he may have caused
:09:58. > :10:02.or she may have taken from these remarks but the difficulty is, the
:10:02. > :10:05.Labour Partys taken it seriously. An investigation has been done by
:10:05. > :10:09.the whip's office T Chief Whip has been involved in terms of the
:10:09. > :10:14.Government members on that Select Committee, and in working out what
:10:14. > :10:20.was said, none of the other members were of the view that there was
:10:20. > :10:24.anything which was intimidatery, or in a sense, went against the issues
:10:24. > :10:28.of a woman, I want to say this, the Scottish Labour Party has a proud
:10:28. > :10:32.record in terms of women's rights. We brought in all women short lives
:10:33. > :10:38.to make sure that we had good levels of female reputation in
:10:38. > :10:43.Parliament. We have done a lot in terms of female violence. A lot on
:10:43. > :10:47.anti-discrimination laws. We have a proud record. It not the politic of
:10:47. > :10:51.Margaret Curran or myself to condone any actions that would be
:10:51. > :10:56.discriminatory to women. The point is he didn't really apologise to Dr
:10:56. > :11:01.Eilidh Whiteford, did he. He came up with some rather mealy mouthed
:11:01. > :11:06.formulation about apologising to anyone who had taken offence. That
:11:06. > :11:11.is not the same as saying to someone "I'm sorry." I have seen
:11:11. > :11:15.the words, they look like an apology to me. He doesn't mention
:11:15. > :11:19.her. To most people outside it would like like an apology.
:11:19. > :11:23.Perhapss he's can direct them directly to her. That would be a
:11:23. > :11:28.helpful thing. We have to move beyond the politics of he said, she
:11:28. > :11:34.said. Hang on f you are conceding that maybe he should apologise,
:11:34. > :11:39.directly to, look, you saw the interview, or heard it with Dr
:11:39. > :11:44.Eilidh Whiteford there, what ever you think about her idea there can
:11:44. > :11:48.be no context whatsoever in which using these sort of phrases can ver
:11:48. > :11:51.be justifiable, she was clearly upset by it. If anyone inside the
:11:51. > :11:56.workplace or outside the workplace, you know, you say something to
:11:56. > :11:59.someone and you mean it as a joke, perhaps, and you suddenly realise
:11:59. > :12:04.they haven't taken it as a joke, you get embarrassed and you say,
:12:04. > :12:09.look I am sorry, I really wasn't meaning to give any offence. Now,
:12:09. > :12:12.was it so hard for Ian Davidson to do that? Well, of course, he may
:12:12. > :12:17.wish to reflect about whether he wants to make a personal apology to
:12:17. > :12:22.her in person. But I think we have to get back to the basic reality of
:12:23. > :12:26.this story, which is with the SNP press office were putting out
:12:26. > :12:31.stories that weren't related to a factual account of what occurred. I
:12:31. > :12:36.think there is an issue, with the ethics of the press operation they
:12:36. > :12:39.have conducted, when we have only found out today the reality of what
:12:39. > :12:44.transpired at that committee meeting. I notice as Dr Eilidh
:12:44. > :12:53.Whiteford said, you are not denying that Ian Davidson made these
:12:53. > :12:57.You are not denying that Ian Davidson made these remarks.
:12:58. > :13:01.appears to have used an expression which can be misconstrued and they
:13:02. > :13:07.accept people could take offence, and for that he has apologised
:13:07. > :13:12.today. What we have to get on to is the serious issues that this
:13:12. > :13:15.committee is looking at in terms of what is happening with independence.
:13:15. > :13:25.For the SNP not to take part in that would be a dreadful mistake on
:13:25. > :13:31.
:13:31. > :13:36.their par. We also have an Pete Wishart joining us. The SNP's Pete
:13:36. > :13:43.Wishart is a former member of the committee. Pete Wishart, at the
:13:43. > :13:46.very minimum here, let's lead to one side who said what. If you do
:13:47. > :13:52.not either convince Dr Eilidh Whiteford are one of your other MPs
:13:52. > :13:57.to go back on to this committee, you will be accused by Labour and
:13:57. > :14:00.indeed the Liberals and democrats and Conservatives that what is
:14:00. > :14:05.going on here is that you do not want anything to do with this
:14:06. > :14:13.committee because you want to betray it as the Unionist plot.
:14:13. > :14:17.That is nonsense. Let's not give in to you said, who said argument.
:14:17. > :14:21.What happened was an inappropriate phrase was used to a female member
:14:21. > :14:24.of the committee. It is not acceptable in any context and if
:14:24. > :14:28.that happened in any other workplace throughout Scotland
:14:28. > :14:32.disciplinary action would be taken. Dr Eilidh Whiteford is right to
:14:32. > :14:39.withdraw from that committee as long as the chairman who made those
:14:39. > :14:42.remarks continues to sit in that place. We will not be prepared to
:14:42. > :14:48.participate in that committee as long as somebody who makes
:14:48. > :14:54.misogynist remarks such as those, remains in his chair. You have
:14:54. > :15:01.heard Willie Bain suggesting that he has made an apology. There is
:15:01. > :15:08.some level where this has to stop, every side has got a different
:15:08. > :15:12.argument, except that. We are sorry, let's move on. When Ian Davidson
:15:12. > :15:17.resigned from the chair we will take a bar plays. As long as he
:15:17. > :15:21.remains in place we will not accept our place in that. There are bigger
:15:21. > :15:30.issues being discussed by the Scottish Affairs Committee. But
:15:30. > :15:34.this is important to us. This has to be dealt with proper relief.
:15:34. > :15:40.think people outside will feel really confused as to what is going
:15:40. > :15:44.on. They expect politicians to work together. The SNP you are proposing
:15:44. > :15:49.that we separate off from the rest of the UK. People want to know what
:15:49. > :15:54.currency we will use, who was set our interest rates, what will
:15:54. > :15:58.happen to mortgage rates, savings, pensions. These are huge questions
:15:58. > :16:02.which have to be addressed and Alex Salmond is refusing to answer them.
:16:02. > :16:08.He is refusing to deal with these questions and have all parties
:16:08. > :16:13.engaged in the answers. What about Pete Wishart's suggestion that Ian
:16:13. > :16:16.Davidson should resign? That is a matter for the committee. The rules
:16:16. > :16:25.are clear that if the committee does not have confidence in their
:16:25. > :16:29.chair they can remove them. It is a matter for the committee itself.
:16:29. > :16:32.But what is happening is that most members of the committee are
:16:33. > :16:38.content with the apology Ian Davidson made today. I think we
:16:38. > :16:42.should move on. The people of Scotland are watching us. They want
:16:42. > :16:45.to know what are the answers. When we look at what is happening with
:16:45. > :16:49.the Eurozone tonight and see the difficulty in separating the fiscal
:16:49. > :16:54.and monetary policy, people want to know what independence would mean
:16:54. > :16:58.to them. It is appropriate that all parties have their say and take
:16:58. > :17:03.part in a discussion and dialogue with the Scottish people for all
:17:03. > :17:07.stopped and you will not move on this, Pete Wishart? Dreadful
:17:07. > :17:13.remarks were made, remarks that caused great offence to the
:17:13. > :17:18.personally receive them. We have to get this resolved, the solution
:17:18. > :17:24.that we are supposed to accept his this grudging, have parted,
:17:24. > :17:30.conditional apologies. Willie Bain suggested that Ian Davidson might
:17:30. > :17:32.make a personal apology. It has taken him 24 hours since it first
:17:32. > :17:41.emerged to getting round to acknowledging there is a herd party
:17:41. > :17:47.involved at this. This is not the first time this has happened. We
:17:47. > :17:52.had the neo-fascist remark previous to this. This chairman has all
:17:52. > :17:59.sorts of been appropriate language. What he did last week went way
:17:59. > :18:04.beyond. Willie Bain, isn't there an underlying issue here, and
:18:04. > :18:07.increasingly an issue in Scottish politics. You two parties are the
:18:07. > :18:11.biggest political parties in Scotland. There is a serious
:18:11. > :18:15.problem about the way you relate to each other. There are many people
:18:15. > :18:20.in the Labour Party who do not accept that the SNP is a legitimate
:18:20. > :18:25.party. They think they are a bunch of separatists who want to break up
:18:25. > :18:30.Britain. On the other side, there are people on the nationalist side
:18:30. > :18:34.who, for example, were saying that Dr Eilidh Whiteford was the only
:18:34. > :18:36.person on the Scottish Select Committee who had any right to have
:18:37. > :18:42.an opinion on whether we should have a referendum on independence.
:18:42. > :18:46.There is a basic lack of respect between your two parties. I hope
:18:46. > :18:51.that will improve. But the people of Scotland tonight are facing an
:18:51. > :18:56.economy teetering on the brink of recession. One in four Scottish men
:18:56. > :19:01.do not have a job. We owe it to those young people, to the people
:19:01. > :19:05.of Scotland to work together. can hardly deny that these
:19:05. > :19:10.attitudes are not prevalent on your own side. I think things are
:19:10. > :19:14.getting a lot better. I think the SNP could take part in our five-
:19:14. > :19:20.point plan on the economy to a B and people get back into work.
:19:21. > :19:25.Bring forward some of those capital project. I am making a point about
:19:25. > :19:33.basic attitudes that you politicians have to each other. And
:19:33. > :19:37.you say the SNP should adopt Labour attitudes, that is laughable.
:19:37. > :19:43.a dreadful relationship. Last night there was a debate about Scotland's
:19:43. > :19:46.constitutional future. 30 Labour Members of Parliament came storming
:19:46. > :19:52.in at 10:30pm and tried to hire me down the minute I tried to utter a
:19:52. > :19:55.syllable. That is how bad it is down there. I think it is all to do
:19:56. > :20:00.with what is happening with Scotland's constitutional issues.
:20:00. > :20:05.There are people in Westminster who have not reconciled to what is
:20:05. > :20:10.happening in the new Scotland. your people to suggest that somehow
:20:10. > :20:16.our other that Ian Davidson and his colleagues on the select committee
:20:16. > :20:24.do not have the right to have used on a referendum, that is ridiculous.
:20:24. > :20:28.They are totally entitled to have used on the referendum. But it was
:20:28. > :20:32.almost like independence was cordite and separation was put in
:20:32. > :20:40.instead. That is the type of thing Labour are doing in Westminster.
:20:40. > :20:44.will have to leave it there. Research at Stirling University has
:20:44. > :20:48.found that parents who joke and have fun with their children is
:20:48. > :20:53.giving them a head start in life. The work shows that pretending and
:20:53. > :21:03.joking are two different things. Children as young as two can tell
:21:03. > :21:11.
:21:11. > :21:20.This is how it minds are made. Pretending and choking are key
:21:20. > :21:23.elements of building the school's children and adults. It is funny.
:21:23. > :21:29.Sometimes if you do something different it makes it more fun for
:21:29. > :21:39.the children. I guess pretending is good. Pretending to be something
:21:39. > :21:39.
:21:39. > :21:45.else. No science is expanding, this playgroup is taking place in
:21:45. > :21:49.Stirling University Baby and toddler room. Joking is important
:21:49. > :21:53.for attracting a mate. It is important for making friends,
:21:53. > :22:00.people who share the same sense of humour will have social bonds with
:22:00. > :22:05.each other. It is important for coping with stress. Seeing the
:22:05. > :22:10.funny things in life lead to people they can cope better. Pretending is
:22:10. > :22:16.different. Early on it is suggested that young children learn how to
:22:16. > :22:22.pretend to do things that they will do later on. The significance of
:22:22. > :22:32.this research is an underlying concept that pretending and joking
:22:32. > :22:39.
:22:39. > :22:46.Donna's four-year-old daughter is baking, or pretending to. It is a
:22:46. > :22:51.serious business, but then along comes a tiger. If two-year-old Adam
:22:51. > :22:57.took a Tiger attack as seriously, there would be tears. But he reacts
:22:57. > :23:02.differently. This is not pretending, this is joking and even children
:23:03. > :23:12.this young can tell the difference. I think he may know. The result is
:23:13. > :23:14.
:23:14. > :23:24.fun. To pretend something else, it has to be serious so they can get
:23:24. > :23:28.
:23:28. > :23:36.But how do they know the difference? Research suggests it's
:23:36. > :23:40.all down to what is exchanged between parent and child. When
:23:40. > :23:48.parents joke with their child, they give a lot of feedback they are
:23:48. > :23:51.joking, they laugh and smile more. Their tone of voice is more excited.
:23:51. > :23:57.Developmental psychologists here have been studying responses of
:23:57. > :24:02.children between 14 months and two years. As they approach adulthood,
:24:02. > :24:06.we put away childish things like pretending, don't we? We stop
:24:06. > :24:12.pretending around the age of seven. But we do it a lot of ways in our
:24:13. > :24:17.lives. People love to watch films and television. It is also
:24:17. > :24:21.important for things like sports. If you are a diver, you might
:24:22. > :24:31.imagine what do the motions before you actually dive. You can use it
:24:31. > :24:37.to prepare for things in life. research is already moving on from
:24:37. > :24:41.joking and pretending to the dark side, outright lies. It is very
:24:42. > :24:47.similar to joking and pretending. If you deceive someone, maybe you
:24:47. > :24:50.hide something from someone, you were doing something wrong. Just
:24:50. > :24:52.like you would when you're pretending are joking, but the
:24:52. > :24:55.difference is when you're pretending you want the other
:24:56. > :25:01.person to know, you joke will not succeed if no-one knows you have
:25:01. > :25:09.told a joke. When you were lying, you didn't want anyone to know
:25:09. > :25:15.otherwise it will not were. work here has been supported by the
:25:15. > :25:21.UK's economic and Social Research Council and will feature in an
:25:21. > :25:31.event in Stirling University on Saturday. It is open to 80 parents
:25:31. > :25:34.