:00:15. > :00:18.stakes in this powder keg of a Tonight on news night Scotland: A
:00:18. > :00:23.political row erupts as the Chancellor claims uncertainty
:00:23. > :00:26.caused by the independence referendum is discouraging
:00:26. > :00:30.businesses investing in Scotland. We'll hear from a Scotland office
:00:30. > :00:35.minister. And in the latest in our series of Labour leadership
:00:35. > :00:41.interviews, we speak to the man Ed Miliband called "the other
:00:41. > :00:44.excellent candidate", Ken Macintosh. Good evening. So who is scared of
:00:44. > :00:48.investing in Scotland? The Chancellor started a war of words
:00:48. > :00:52.at the weekend, when he told BBC Scotland that some of the world's
:00:52. > :00:56.largest companies are worried about putting money into Scotland because
:00:56. > :01:01.of constitutional uncertainty. He refused to name any of the firms.
:01:01. > :01:11.So is he scaremongering or reflecting genuine fears of big
:01:11. > :01:16.business? David Allison reports. The respect agenda has moved on,
:01:16. > :01:18.shuffled off or simply collapsed, depending on your point of view.
:01:18. > :01:22.Now thinly-veiled threats are becoming the order of the day.
:01:22. > :01:28.think the instability and the uncertainty that hangs over the
:01:28. > :01:31.Scottish economy because of Alex Salmond raising the prospect of
:01:31. > :01:34.independence without providing detail of when he wants the
:01:34. > :01:37.referendum, what the question would be, I think that uncertainty is
:01:37. > :01:40.damaging investment in Scotland. There are major businesses around
:01:40. > :01:43.the world who have asked me in the last year, tell us what's going on
:01:43. > :01:46.in Scotland. We're worried about making an investment in that
:01:46. > :01:50.country. I've told them, go ahead with the investment. I have to say,
:01:50. > :01:57.those questions are being asked. I think that is having a direct
:01:57. > :02:01.impact on Scottish jobs and Scottish prosperity.
:02:01. > :02:09.That's stuff and nonsense from George Osborne. He can't name a
:02:09. > :02:11.single company. I can point to the great companies of the world like
:02:11. > :02:16.Amazon, companies which have invested in Scotland in the last
:02:16. > :02:21.few months. Indeed, as leader of team Scotland, the First Minister
:02:21. > :02:29.has often been present at announcements, such as wind turbine
:02:29. > :02:34.producer, or Doosan power services or the Swiss banking software firm
:02:34. > :02:37.Avolok. Or Amazon creating a new centre in Dunfermline. Who are the
:02:37. > :02:41.companies thinking twice about investing in Scotland? I don't want
:02:41. > :02:43.to go into the specific companies, by I can tell you they are some of
:02:43. > :02:53.the largest companies in the world. These are private conversations
:02:53. > :02:53.
:02:53. > :03:01.I've had. I have to say, always answer, invest in Scotland.
:03:01. > :03:05.today the MD of bab cock's marine division insisted his firm is A
:03:05. > :03:10.political about independence. They said they serve a number of bodies
:03:10. > :03:13.and will never have a political opinion. But the local MP for the
:03:13. > :03:17.area asked the Defence Secretary what the company perhaps couldn't.
:03:17. > :03:21.Will he confirm if there was a separate Scotland the Ministry of
:03:21. > :03:27.Defence would have to look again at the long-term refitting options for
:03:27. > :03:32.our aircraft airiers? honourable gentleman is right, that
:03:32. > :03:36.it is unlikely that Her Majesty's forces would wish to use facilities
:03:36. > :03:39.in a fully interScotland in the way that they would wish to use
:03:39. > :03:45.facilities within the United Kingdom. What about business more
:03:45. > :03:49.generally? Are they asking questions? They have an open mind
:03:49. > :03:56.about the prospect for independence. When companies invest, they do a
:03:56. > :03:59.lot of dew diligence. -- due diligence. I don't think companies
:03:59. > :04:03.are persuaded that independence is going to happen. If one looks at
:04:03. > :04:09.all the opinion polls over time, it probably is unlikely. But that does
:04:09. > :04:13.not mean that they shouldn't ask the questions and undertake a risk
:04:13. > :04:17.assessment. It's entirely right that they should. Today the
:04:17. > :04:21.Scottish Secretary reiterated George Osborne's remarks about the
:04:21. > :04:26.uncertainty caused by the proposed independence referendum. Meanwhile,
:04:26. > :04:31.the SNP produced a list of 15 major companies concerned about the
:04:31. > :04:35.impact of the Chancellor's North Sea windfall tax. The challenge
:04:35. > :04:39.we've got is George Osborne's negative policies. That's dissuaded
:04:39. > :04:43.people from investing in the North Sea. A range of companies will sign
:04:43. > :04:45.up to that. That is the difficulty the Scottish economy has at the
:04:45. > :04:51.present moment. He's trying to blame everybody else, Europe,
:04:51. > :04:56.Scotland, everybody. With the referendum not happening
:04:56. > :04:59.before November 2013, this weather is set to be with us for a while.
:04:59. > :05:03.Earlier I spoke to the SNP Stewart Maxwell and Scotland office
:05:03. > :05:08.minister, David Mundell. I began by asking Mr Mundell if he could name
:05:08. > :05:11.any of the companies the Chancellor was talking about? I think
:05:12. > :05:15.obviously the Chancellor is in contact with a lot of British
:05:15. > :05:20.companies, a lot of multinational companies. He's involved in a lot
:05:20. > :05:26.of conversations which demonstrate whether businesses want to invest
:05:26. > :05:31.in Britain and in Scotland. Can you name of the companies? That sort of
:05:31. > :05:34.information is inevitably commercially sensitive. The
:05:34. > :05:38.Chancellor does have a clear impression of what businesses are
:05:38. > :05:45.saying about investing in Scotlandment Can you name any
:05:45. > :05:49.companies? Can you name any company?... We have the uncertainty
:05:49. > :05:53.over the independence referendum. Can you name a company which has
:05:53. > :05:58.raised a similar concern with you? I've raised this issue with a
:05:58. > :06:02.number of businesses and they have let me know that they do have a
:06:02. > :06:06.concern about the independence referendum and about what the
:06:06. > :06:10.future of Scotland is, about the uncertainty that sounds, surrounds
:06:10. > :06:15.the referendum, about the date, about the question, about the
:06:15. > :06:18.franchise. This is an unhealthy situation for business in Scotland.
:06:18. > :06:23.It needs to be resolved. The SNP Scottish government could resolve
:06:23. > :06:26.it now by coming forward with details of what the referendum will
:06:26. > :06:30.actually involve and when it will be held. How many multinational
:06:30. > :06:34.companies feel this way? I think it's quite clear that when
:06:34. > :06:41.businesses look at Scotland and think "Will this country continue
:06:41. > :06:45.to be in the EU? What currency will it have? What form of
:06:45. > :06:49.revelationship will it have with the rest of the United Kingdom and
:06:49. > :06:54.kfpbt answer that question, and these companies, as you know, do a
:06:54. > :06:58.lot of internal... Which companies?... Analysis. They look
:06:58. > :07:01.at different locations around the world for investment. Stewart
:07:01. > :07:06.Maxwell, from SNP, you're not a minister, maybe you're not party to
:07:06. > :07:11.that detail. You will have heard CBI Scotland today say that
:07:12. > :07:16.business is concerned and is making calculations that may well affect
:07:16. > :07:20.the amount of investment that the Scottish economy enjoys. I think we
:07:21. > :07:25.heard there in the answers or lack of answers from David Mundell very
:07:25. > :07:29.-- the very state of those who are trying to put forward a case forts
:07:29. > :07:32.union. If you're running a business you would ask these questions,
:07:32. > :07:36.wouldn't you? I'm afraid that the evidence is quite the contrary. We
:07:36. > :07:39.have an enormous list of companies who have invested, probably
:07:39. > :07:45.something like �1 billion over the last year in Scotland. They know a
:07:45. > :07:49.referendum is coming up. Companies like Amazon and Doosan have real
:07:49. > :07:53.confidence in the Scottish economy and in the confidence of the skills
:07:53. > :07:58.of the workforce. I can tell you about one big business, the UK
:07:58. > :08:01.Government, which spends a lot on defence contracts, which is
:08:01. > :08:06.indicated today through David Mundell's boss that Scottish firms,
:08:06. > :08:13.Scottish outfits would not be in the front line for orders in future,
:08:13. > :08:17.if Scotland was an intercountry. think that's frankly ridiculous.
:08:17. > :08:21.Most Scots will be absolutely sick to the back teeth of UK ministers
:08:22. > :08:25.talking Scotland down and talking high quality, high skilled
:08:25. > :08:28.workforces around the country, who could easily bid for this work and
:08:28. > :08:32.I'm sure would win the work in the future. You have to remember that
:08:32. > :08:35.the UK was signed up to the European defence procurement
:08:35. > :08:39.programme by the Labour Government, supported by the Tories and the
:08:39. > :08:44.liberals, that means there's open competition for defence contracts
:08:44. > :08:48.across Europe. Isn't there to be a level playing field across the EU?
:08:48. > :08:55.The first issue that comes to mind is whether Scotland would even be
:08:55. > :08:59.in the EU. That question has been raised in recent consideration of
:08:59. > :09:03.that issue. If the Scottish Government is confident that post-
:09:03. > :09:07.independence that Scotland would even be in the EU, they should
:09:07. > :09:11.publish their advice which supports that. A Scotland out with the EU
:09:11. > :09:17.would certainly not be able to attract the level of investment
:09:17. > :09:20.that it has previously. It wouldn't have the sort of level playing
:09:20. > :09:25.field that Stewart Maxwell talks about. The future relationship with
:09:25. > :09:29.the EU is just one of the very many uncertainties that surrounds
:09:30. > :09:33.independence, because we don't have a definition of what independence
:09:33. > :09:39.involves and we don't have a time scale for a referendum about
:09:39. > :09:43.independence. I'm really getting a bit sick of this. I'm sure many
:09:43. > :09:49.people are as well. You're supposed to be Scotland's man in the Cabinet,
:09:49. > :09:53.but here you are... He's not in the Cabinet yet. A minister then,
:09:53. > :09:57.certainly in the UK Government. Talking Scotland down, and telling
:09:57. > :10:02.us how awful it's going to be. on a minute why don't you tell us
:10:02. > :10:05.when you're going to have your referendum? Well, we'll have it in
:10:05. > :10:09.the second half of this Parliamentary session. We have said
:10:09. > :10:14.it and we have repeated that. published a question in the last
:10:14. > :10:19.Parliament, when you said you would move towards holding a referendum.
:10:19. > :10:23.Any reason to doubt that a question of the same nature won't appear on
:10:23. > :10:26.the ballot paper when eventually you get round to a referendum?
:10:26. > :10:33.referendum will happen. It will happen in the second half of this
:10:33. > :10:38.Parliamentary term. There will be a clear yes/no question on
:10:38. > :10:43.independence. On inds or on empowering the Scottish Government
:10:43. > :10:46.to empowering a settlement to lead to independence? There has to be an
:10:46. > :10:49.advisory referendum because that power is reserved. The wording will
:10:49. > :10:55.be clear and it will be clear we're talking about independence for
:10:55. > :10:59.Scotland. That's a fact. Everybody will know that's it. David Mundell,
:10:59. > :11:03.if you're so worried about uncertainty, why don't you call the
:11:03. > :11:07.referendum or put the Scottish Government's ability to hold it
:11:07. > :11:14.beyond legal doubt by passing legislation to that effect? I think
:11:14. > :11:18.at this stage, we want to hear what the Scottish government proposed.
:11:18. > :11:21.Stuart's given more information than the First Minister or his
:11:21. > :11:25.Government gave about what the terps of the referendum are. I hope
:11:26. > :11:31.that they will be now more forth coming and tell us what they
:11:31. > :11:37.propose. Then we can make a judgment on its legality, on
:11:37. > :11:40.whether we think that the terms of it are fair, you know, we have
:11:40. > :11:43.issues around, for example, whether the Electoral Commission would be
:11:43. > :11:46.involved. It seems very odd that the Scottish government don't want
:11:46. > :11:50.them to be involved in this referendum. But as the Chancellor
:11:50. > :11:56.said, the ball's in their court. Let's hear what they propose and
:11:56. > :12:01.end this uncertainty. David Mundell and Stewart Maxwell thanks both
:12:01. > :12:04.very much. Now Ed Miliband described him as
:12:04. > :12:08.the third candidate, who's also putting himself forward. He
:12:08. > :12:12.couldn't quite remember his name. That slip helped to draw attention
:12:12. > :12:16.to Ken Macintosh and in a moment, he'll be here for the second of our
:12:16. > :12:20.interviews with those hoping to lead the Labour Party in Scotland.
:12:20. > :12:25.If he struggles to be recognised in his own party, what hope does he
:12:25. > :12:34.have of becoming its next leader. Ken Macintosh has been a member of
:12:34. > :12:38.the Scottish Parliament from day one. He's one of a few original
:12:38. > :12:43.MSPs never to have been given a ministerial role. Of the three
:12:43. > :12:47.candidates vying for the leadership, the former BBC producer is arguably
:12:47. > :12:52.the lowest profile among voters. Recently even slipped the mind of
:12:53. > :12:59.the UK party leader. Can you name the three of them? What I say
:12:59. > :13:03.there's Tom Harris, erm... Joanne Lamont, and a third candidate who
:13:03. > :13:09.is also putting himself forward. is the front runner, Ken Macintosh.
:13:09. > :13:13.Ken Macintosh, yeah. You can't name him. He is going to be an excellent
:13:13. > :13:17.candidate. I forget the names of my kids half the time. It show that's
:13:17. > :13:23.politicians are human. Macintosh was first to put himself
:13:23. > :13:27.forward as a replacement for the outgoing leader Ian Grey. He
:13:27. > :13:31.describes himself as a devolutionist. He promised to put
:13:32. > :13:35.jobs, the economy and education at the top his priorities. He also
:13:35. > :13:38.described May's Holyrood election as disastrous, saying the party
:13:39. > :13:42.needed to get better at listening to its own members. We need to
:13:42. > :13:46.unite as a party and start talking positively about what we believe in,
:13:46. > :13:50.go out and talk to people about their lives and how we can make a
:13:50. > :13:54.difference in those lives. That way we cannot just unite as a party,
:13:54. > :13:59.but unite Scotland. He's shown he can come out top in a political dog
:13:59. > :14:03.fight, as his party suffered defeat after defeat at the last election,
:14:03. > :14:08.in areas once considered strong holds, Macintosh held on to his own
:14:08. > :14:15.seat in the face of a strong Tory challenge to his redrawn
:14:15. > :14:21.constituent. Ken Macintosh is here now. Why you? The clue is partly
:14:21. > :14:27.there, the election in May, which was a disaster for Labour, had a
:14:27. > :14:32.few chinks of light. One was in East woord where we won by 2,000
:14:32. > :14:38.votes. Wasn't that an anti-Tory move? Partly it was. But there are
:14:38. > :14:41.other factors. We have to have a broad appeal. In Eastwood I have to
:14:41. > :14:45.win traditional Labour voters, but there aren't enough. I have to
:14:45. > :14:48.reach out beyond that. That's the message I want to get across now.
:14:48. > :14:51.I'm worried that the Labour Party, following defeat, sticks on the
:14:51. > :14:55.familiar course and sticks with the familiar and more of the same. But
:14:55. > :14:58.we can't do that. We're on a steady decloin and we'll continue to lose
:14:58. > :15:04.votes if we go that way. We need to reach out and become the voice of
:15:04. > :15:07.Scotland. Make sure that people from all over think the party is
:15:07. > :15:11.listening and speaking for them. Stkp if you're the right guy, if
:15:11. > :15:19.you're so good, why were you never chosen for Government in eight
:15:19. > :15:22.years when Labour had power? There are several reasons. I was a
:15:22. > :15:27.ministerial aide quite early on. It's the first step on the greasy
:15:27. > :15:32.pole. The trouble was, not the trouble, I stood by my constituents.
:15:32. > :15:36.I voted against my party and my own Government on the removal of A&E
:15:36. > :15:39.services from the Victoria Hospital. I had to resign as a result. I was
:15:39. > :15:44.in the political wilderness on the backbenchs for several years.
:15:45. > :15:50.were punished for that? Yes. I didn't expect to be pun ished for
:15:50. > :15:53.quite as long. When we went back in opposition I was promoted back to
:15:53. > :15:58.the frontbench. I think my talents have been recognised. When you put
:15:58. > :16:02.your constituents first, as I did there, then clearly you're putting
:16:02. > :16:06.you're career on the back burner. What kind of leader would you be?
:16:06. > :16:10.Are you a socialist? Yes, I am. I'm proud to be a socialist. In what
:16:10. > :16:14.way? I believe in equality, fighting against injustice.
:16:14. > :16:17.Scotland a fantastic country, but this is a wealthy country, with one
:16:17. > :16:20.in five children in poverty. That's not right. That's the reason I'm in
:16:21. > :16:25.the Labour Party to tackle that. We can do things now. We can tackle it
:16:25. > :16:30.now with the powers we have in this Parliament. Is it your socialism
:16:30. > :16:35.that led you to suggest that the real franchise should be taken back
:16:35. > :16:40.into -- rail franchise should be taken back into public ownership.
:16:40. > :16:48.think it should be a mutual, not for profit. Some would say that's
:16:48. > :16:52.not public ownership. It takes legislation at Westminster to make
:16:52. > :16:56.it nationalised. With independence perhaps? Potentially. I'll be
:16:56. > :17:01.interested to see if the SNP ever propose it. It's a dividing line
:17:01. > :17:06.between us or the SNP. I would certainly take, end the ScotRail
:17:06. > :17:12.franchise, which is a �300 million subsidy to a private company, going
:17:12. > :17:16.up to �500 million and the SNP, who are looking at public transport and
:17:16. > :17:19.bus regulation, chucked all those out when they received money from
:17:19. > :17:24.private donors. You make a connection between the two things?
:17:24. > :17:30.I absolutely make a connection, yeah. Absolutely. You mean their
:17:30. > :17:33.policy was bought? I think it was compromised. It was tested, their
:17:33. > :17:37.belief in whether or not public transport should be run in the
:17:37. > :17:45.public interest was tested at that point. I think it was found wanting.
:17:45. > :17:52.In our case, we would run, I'm not interested in private - good,
:17:52. > :17:58.public-bad. I'm interested in a mixed economy. We have a private
:17:58. > :18:04.company running services in Scotland. It's a monopoly. It's not
:18:04. > :18:08.working for us. Would you tackle Scottish water? No I think
:18:08. > :18:12.everybody is happy with it being a public company. You were talking
:18:12. > :18:17.about the SNP and how you would differ from the Nationalists in
:18:17. > :18:21.power, of course you have to beat two Labour rivals first. What is
:18:21. > :18:27.the difference between you and the other two? Both of them are
:18:27. > :18:30.colleagues and friends. I'm not going to compare myself with them.
:18:31. > :18:34.You have to do that to some extent. The party needs to change and I
:18:34. > :18:38.offer the biggest change F you're looking for a fresh voice for the
:18:38. > :18:41.Labour Party in Scotland, if you want to broaden your appeal, if you
:18:41. > :18:46.want to talk about hope and optimism in Scottish life and talk
:18:46. > :18:51.positively, because in the past - You said earlier you were a
:18:51. > :18:57.socialist, are you more of a socialist than Joanne Lamont?
:18:57. > :19:00.centre of the party as far as I can tell. A centrist socialist? There's
:19:00. > :19:08.not many people in the Labour Party would deny being a socialist. I
:19:08. > :19:13.don't think there's any point in that. Why do the big trade unions
:19:13. > :19:17.back Joanne Lamont and not you? have big trade unions. The biggest
:19:17. > :19:22.ones back her. That's for them to decide. I happen to know the vote
:19:22. > :19:27.in the GMB and the other unions was very, very close, very close indeed.
:19:27. > :19:31.I don't think you can read more into it. The union members will
:19:31. > :19:36.make up their own minds how they vote. Are you happy to wait for the
:19:36. > :19:39.SNP to call its referendum? No, but it's up to the SNP to do so. We
:19:39. > :19:42.have not got a mandate to interfere. They won the election. They're
:19:42. > :19:46.elected on that mandate. They should call the referendum. I would
:19:46. > :19:52.rather have it sooner than later. Ken Macintosh, thank you for
:19:52. > :19:55.talking to us. A look at tomorrow's front pages. The Herald going with
:19:55. > :19:58.defence jobs. The Scotsman with a similar headline. That's all we
:19:58. > :20:08.have time for tonight. Watch again on the iPlayer. From all of us,
:20:08. > :20:12.
:20:12. > :20:16.Hello there. Pretty grey first thing on Tuesday morning. Another
:20:16. > :20:18.drab start to proceedings. Unlike Monday, hopefully it will get
:20:18. > :20:21.brighter through the day, particularly through the south and
:20:21. > :20:25.parts of Wales. Like Monday, North West England and western Scotland
:20:25. > :20:30.should be favoured for a little bit of sunshine. To the east, I think
:20:30. > :20:32.it will stay mostly overcast. A lot of cloud too for the Midlands.
:20:33. > :20:36.Brightening up through East Anglia and the southern counties of
:20:36. > :20:42.England, we should get a bit of sunshine, lifting temperatures into
:20:43. > :20:46.the teens. Like Monday, west Wales should see some sunshine. Elsewhere,
:20:46. > :20:50.it will be fairly cloudy, but perhaps brighter than it was on
:20:50. > :20:54.Monday. A lot of cloud covering Northern Ireland as well. But again,
:20:54. > :20:58.along the north coast it may cheer up and temperatures could respond,
:20:58. > :21:02.up to 12 degrees Celsius. North West Scotland will be favoured for
:21:02. > :21:05.sunshine and maybe not as much fog around here, as during Monday. The
:21:05. > :21:09.eastern side of Scotland stays rather grey. Wednesday should be a
:21:09. > :21:12.bit brighter, again. A better chance of seeing some sunshine. We
:21:12. > :21:15.could see thickening cloud bringing rain into Northern Ireland later on
:21:15. > :21:20.Wednesday. That cloud could also bring rain into parts of South
:21:20. > :21:23.Wales and maybe the far South West of England. We will see the cloud
:21:23. > :21:29.increasing, certainly across Devon and Cornwall, rain arriving here