:00:08. > :00:10.much information needs to be On Newsnight Scotland. "Grossly
:00:10. > :00:14.overcrowded" was the verdict on Scotland's largest prison in a
:00:14. > :00:17.report last week. The Justice Secretary paid a visit to Barlinnie
:00:17. > :00:20.to see the problems for himself this morning - we ask Kenny
:00:20. > :00:26.MacAskill what the Scottish government is doing to fix prison
:00:26. > :00:29.overcrowding. Also tonight: As the parents of a
:00:29. > :00:35.teenager murdered 20 years ago give evidence at the Leveson Inquiry, is
:00:35. > :00:38.it time to change our defamation laws?
:00:38. > :00:41.Good evening. The Justice Secretary admits that something is going
:00:41. > :00:45.wrong, but says there's no single solution when it comes to prison
:00:45. > :00:48.overcrowding. The Scottish Government wants to reduce the
:00:48. > :00:53.number of short term prisoners, but even with recorded crime at a 35-
:00:53. > :00:56.year low, the prison population still shows few signs of falling.
:00:56. > :01:06.In a moment we'll hear from Kenny MacAskill, but first here's our
:01:06. > :01:12.
:01:12. > :01:16.Barlinnie prison was built over a century ago. Throughout the decade,
:01:16. > :01:20.it has seen rising numbers of prisoners. And it just wasn't
:01:20. > :01:25.designed for the numbers it accommodates now. It has reached
:01:25. > :01:31.saturation point. A report from the Chief Inspector of Prisons last
:01:31. > :01:37.week said it was grossly overcrowded. To be overcrowded by
:01:37. > :01:43.well over 500 people set an exceptionally daunting challenge.
:01:43. > :01:53.Barlinnie staff go out of their way and do so with commendable effect,
:01:53. > :01:57.nevertheless, the situation is far The record shows that 50% of people
:01:57. > :02:04.who of remanded in Scotland's prisons do not end up serving a
:02:04. > :02:08.custodial sentence. -- Halloran minded. Today, the Scottish justice
:02:08. > :02:14.to go tree came to Barlinnie to see what the situation is like in
:02:14. > :02:19.Scotland's largest prison. They are having to deal with difficult
:02:19. > :02:22.challenging people in difficult, challenging circumstances. We have
:02:22. > :02:30.to try and improve the system hearing Scotland. There are too
:02:30. > :02:40.many people in prison who don't need to be there. Barlinnie now,
:02:40. > :02:44.
:02:44. > :02:47.let it 50% more prisoners than it That affect the daily regime, it
:02:47. > :02:52.affects the life that the prisoners have, they're locked up more often,
:02:52. > :02:56.it is more difficult for the staff to deal with people who have health
:02:56. > :03:00.issues, mental health issues, people who just want access to the
:03:00. > :03:04.open air cannot have access to what they should be getting on a daily
:03:04. > :03:10.basis. There are too many people here, frankly. According to
:03:10. > :03:16.government figures, attending his 3035 year low. So why does the
:03:16. > :03:22.number of prisoners not seem to reflect this. The number of
:03:22. > :03:29.prisoners in Barlinnie reached an all-time high in 2009. However, at
:03:29. > :03:35.the end of 2008, this prison in West Lothian opened. It provided
:03:35. > :03:43.another 700 spaces. Scottish Prison Service estimates around 400 of
:03:43. > :03:46.prisoners here were traditionally Barlinnie prisoners. So without it,
:03:46. > :03:50.the number of prisoners at Barlinnie could have been about
:03:50. > :03:55.2000. The governesses this is not the right place for everyone who is
:03:55. > :04:00.here. Have a look around, you see people on remand, who are unlikely
:04:00. > :04:04.to be convicted, people with mental health issues, who live here
:04:04. > :04:09.because there is no where else of safety for them. This is just what
:04:09. > :04:12.we have to deal with. The Scottish government has abolished short-term
:04:12. > :04:17.sentences and less than three months, aiming to reduce the number
:04:17. > :04:22.of prisoners. There is also the question of what the public thinks
:04:22. > :04:26.Britain is for. I'm not sure the public know what they want. They
:04:26. > :04:30.expect us just to keep people locked up, but this time next week,
:04:30. > :04:35.it could be you in here, you don't know how your life is going to pan
:04:35. > :04:41.out. We need to have a prison system that is reasonable, decent
:04:41. > :04:49.and safe. You cannot just bring in a punitive system, it just doesn't
:04:49. > :04:57.work. A new prison in his Dumbarton share is set to open next year,
:04:57. > :05:02.with 700 prison cells, and Annette extra 100 places will be created.
:05:02. > :05:07.But with numbers as they are, it seems more has to change if prisons,
:05:07. > :05:10.prisoners and staff are to cope. Just before we came on air, I spoke
:05:10. > :05:15.to the Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill, and began by asking him
:05:15. > :05:21.why there aren't enough prison places. They write enough prison
:05:21. > :05:25.places, but clearly, there is overcrowding. We have invested 360
:05:26. > :05:30.million over the last four years, 700 new places were opened and will
:05:30. > :05:36.become available when the new prison opens in March, and a new
:05:36. > :05:40.prison has been started next year - - will be started next year. Surely
:05:40. > :05:48.if there were enough places, there wouldn't be overcrowding? Well, we
:05:48. > :05:51.have invested 368 million, we face challenge didn't -- challenges. We
:05:51. > :05:57.cannot build our way out of the problem. We have the lowest
:05:57. > :06:01.recorded crime in 35 years. We have seen a decline in violent offending,
:06:01. > :06:08.and did we see an escalating number of prisoners. But that shouldn't be
:06:08. > :06:12.as surprise, because the trend of rising prison population has been
:06:12. > :06:17.established. You have projections suggesting that will continue this
:06:17. > :06:22.decade, and successive prison inspectors, almost always raised
:06:22. > :06:29.this as in issue. Why haven't you build your way out of this problem?
:06:29. > :06:34.We cannot build our way out of this. Prisons cost between 120 and 140
:06:34. > :06:39.million to build. Everyone cost just �40,000 per annum. We have
:06:39. > :06:45.invested over 360 million in four years. If we invest more, it comes
:06:46. > :06:50.at the expense of homes, schools, hospitals. Prisons come at a cost,
:06:50. > :06:53.and after time of challenging financial circumstances, austerity,
:06:53. > :06:57.the priority of this government is to look after our pensioners as
:06:57. > :07:01.well as make sure we have sufficient capacity for how
:07:01. > :07:06.prisoners. But equally there is something manifestly wrong. Far too
:07:06. > :07:11.many are going to prison, yet we have the lowest recorded crime in
:07:11. > :07:15.35 years. As well as making sure we have new prisons, we are also
:07:15. > :07:22.taking action. Why do we have record numbers of women prisoners
:07:22. > :07:26.when we have a decline in the crime rate? But people will be looking to
:07:26. > :07:34.you for on just, you have been in power as just a secretary for five
:07:34. > :07:39.years. -- looking up to you for answers. What do you think has gone
:07:39. > :07:44.wrong? There is not one simple solution. First of all we brought
:07:44. > :07:47.into of community sentences, so that low-level offenders who are
:07:47. > :07:51.not a danger to our communities do not twiddle their thumbs at
:07:51. > :07:58.taxpayers' expense, they are out there playing for the harm they
:07:58. > :08:02.have done. Equally, we have got to address underlying problems. People
:08:02. > :08:07.go into prison quite often, they have to be dealt with by the
:08:07. > :08:11.justice system, but they go in with underlying problems of alcohol
:08:11. > :08:15.abuse, a significant problem in Scotland we are seeking to tackle,
:08:15. > :08:18.drugs, mental health. That is why the solution for many low-level
:08:18. > :08:22.offenders it is in the community from where they came and where they
:08:22. > :08:27.have to go back to. It is about working with my Cabinet colleagues
:08:27. > :08:31.to make sure as well as tough community punishment, we address
:08:31. > :08:37.educational failings and health issues, all the other aspects had
:08:37. > :08:41.damaged Scottish society. introduced a presumption against
:08:41. > :08:51.the shorter sentences, those less than three months, why does that
:08:51. > :08:55.
:08:55. > :08:59.It has made an impact. Things would be worse if you had not done that?
:08:59. > :09:04.We faced challenges and we try to set I direction of travel. There
:09:05. > :09:09.are some people where respite care is appropriate for the victims of
:09:09. > :09:14.domestic violence, so that is a matter for the Sheriff. Everybody
:09:14. > :09:23.accepts it routine, short sentences do not work. We have to break the
:09:23. > :09:27.cycle of reoffending. But the point he mentioned about the discretion
:09:27. > :09:32.sheriffs have, is it not the case that other judges and shares are
:09:32. > :09:36.choosing to judge people to longer periods in jail rather than opting
:09:36. > :09:43.for the alternatives that you put in place instead of the charges
:09:43. > :09:46.sentences? No, I do not think so. Sheriffs are opting to use tough,
:09:46. > :09:52.community punishment. But we have to deal with people who have
:09:52. > :09:56.broader, wider issues, who are unemployed, who opted out of the
:09:56. > :09:59.educational regime at an early stage and that has been mentioned
:09:59. > :10:04.by the Inspector of Prisons, and who have underlying drug and
:10:04. > :10:07.alcohol problems and mental health issues. These are difficult issues
:10:07. > :10:11.and are very challenging to share it. Sometimes they feel the only
:10:11. > :10:16.option open to them is a prison sentence and they become a very
:10:16. > :10:21.challenging to the present estate. None of this is new. You knew all
:10:21. > :10:28.of this when you became the Justice Secretary, yet five years later you
:10:28. > :10:37.are presiding over a record high in our prison population. Why had he
:10:37. > :10:40.not had the impact? Why has it not work? Let's get matters in context.
:10:40. > :10:45.Every jurisdiction in Western Europe other than one is facing an
:10:45. > :10:49.increasing prison population. These are broad aspects that affect
:10:49. > :10:53.Western democracies. We have taken action as a Government here. We
:10:53. > :10:57.have invested significant amounts in the prison estate to make sure
:10:57. > :11:01.we have got a fit and proper prison estate, but we are not in the
:11:01. > :11:05.position of being able to throw in even more in a time of austerity.
:11:05. > :11:09.We are taking action in tough community punishments and we are
:11:09. > :11:15.looking to tackle the underlying issues that affect so many of the
:11:15. > :11:19.short term offenders who are in and out on a regular basis. Workless us,
:11:19. > :11:24.addiction, mental health problems, it is across the board and that is
:11:24. > :11:29.what we are seeking to do. We are about to talk about the evidence to
:11:29. > :11:35.the Leveson inquiry on ethics in journalism today and the call from
:11:35. > :11:38.one Scottish couple for there to be a change in the law to make it
:11:38. > :11:43.illegal to defame and somebody who is dead. Are you sympathetic to
:11:43. > :11:48.that call? We are aware of the pain and suffering caused to Mr and Mrs
:11:48. > :11:53.Watson. We have decided as a Government to wait and see the
:11:53. > :11:57.outcome of the Leveson inquiry. We have advised them we are going to
:11:57. > :12:01.see what the Leveson inquiry reports, but we are aware of the
:12:01. > :12:06.issues and it is a matter that causes concern to us. I use
:12:06. > :12:12.sympathetic to a change in the there? We have to see what works,
:12:12. > :12:17.we have had input from a variety of organisations. We want to see what
:12:17. > :12:20.the Leveson inquiry says. Given we are dealing with the media, both
:12:20. > :12:28.print and other media, we want to make sure we have got the
:12:28. > :12:32.appropriate jurisdiction. Despite having consulted with them across
:12:33. > :12:36.the south of the border, we want to see what the Leveson inquiry says.
:12:37. > :12:42.In an all-star cast including Hugh Grant and Steve Coogan, the names
:12:42. > :12:45.of Margaret and James Watson do not stand out, but the evidence they
:12:45. > :12:49.gave to the Leveson inquiry today into journalistic ethics was
:12:49. > :12:54.compelling. They described her press coverage following the murder
:12:54. > :13:00.of their teenage daughter lead to further tragedy for the family.
:13:00. > :13:09.The murder of Diane Watson was widely covered by the press in 1991.
:13:09. > :13:13.She was stabbed by a classmate, 15 year-old Barbara Glover, in the
:13:13. > :13:20.schoolyard in the East End of Glasgow.
:13:20. > :13:24.The law says you cannot defamed the dead. Today Mrs Watson told Lord
:13:24. > :13:28.Justice Leveson that what was written about her daughter in the
:13:28. > :13:36.press, particularly in articles in the Herald, the Sunday Mail and
:13:36. > :13:40.Marie Claire magazine amounted to defamation. Misreporting, malicious
:13:40. > :13:45.lies, malicious falsehoods, just because a person is diseased you
:13:45. > :13:50.can write what you want? They certainly did it. Just because a
:13:50. > :13:53.person has died their reputation should not die with them. They
:13:53. > :13:59.should not be besmirched at the well of some sick journalist,
:13:59. > :14:03.because that is what they are, sick. 18 months after the death of Diana
:14:04. > :14:10.her younger brother Alan took his own life. The Watson family say
:14:10. > :14:13.that press coverage was directly responsible. The malicious
:14:13. > :14:18.falsehoods published as too much for our son Alan who died with
:14:18. > :14:23.these articles in his hand. Tonight they Herald group said it deeply
:14:23. > :14:29.regrets any grief they caused the family. Marie Claire also said
:14:29. > :14:34.sorry and the Sunday Mail said, no comment. The Watson family are
:14:34. > :14:38.campaigning to have the law changed to make it an offence to defame the
:14:38. > :14:47.dead. But the wider issue of how the press treats victims of crime
:14:47. > :14:49.is likely to be a major theme in the Leveson inquiry. With me now is
:14:50. > :14:55.someone from Victim Support Scotland. You support a change in
:14:55. > :15:01.the law on what basis? I would like to pay tribute to the courage and
:15:01. > :15:05.the dignity the Watson family gave in their events -- evidence today
:15:05. > :15:09.and their real story about how families bereaved by murder are
:15:09. > :15:13.created by the press. Victim Support Scotland has argued in the
:15:13. > :15:17.Government's consultation exercise that there is a gap in the law. We
:15:17. > :15:21.understand why it is difficult to match a law of defamation about the
:15:21. > :15:26.dead in terms of Scott law. But we cannot allow the media to print
:15:27. > :15:31.what we like about people who have been bereaved by murder. What's
:15:31. > :15:36.changed argue seeking? There would be some extension of the law of
:15:36. > :15:40.defamation and I am not a liar and it is incredibly complex. It is
:15:40. > :15:44.about balancing out the human rights and the rights to privacy
:15:44. > :15:49.and dignity of families with the right of the press to report on
:15:49. > :15:54.trials are freely. Would it be an extension of the law which after
:15:54. > :15:59.all is about protecting the reputation of the living? Or would
:15:59. > :16:04.it be creating a whole new law? would have to be a new law because
:16:04. > :16:09.the reputation of the living is about what reputation is about, but
:16:09. > :16:16.when you die your reputation dies with you. But we cannot continue to
:16:16. > :16:20.fail to protect people like the Watson family whose daughter was
:16:20. > :16:24.vilified in the media. Are you suggesting there should be some
:16:24. > :16:29.remedy to correct something wrong police said about a dead person, or
:16:29. > :16:33.are you suggesting there should be some comeback for relatives,
:16:33. > :16:40.business associates, friends, of a dead person who feel distress at
:16:40. > :16:46.what has been said? There has to be a remedy and perhaps in the wide
:16:46. > :16:51.lot of defamation, but particularly to stop the media intrusion. We are
:16:51. > :16:54.talking about the law of defamation where you can take a newspaper to
:16:54. > :17:00.court and can get punitive damages and that might force journalists to
:17:00. > :17:03.behave more responsibly. But what is coming out is the need for much
:17:03. > :17:07.wider solutions about the accountability of the media who
:17:07. > :17:11.stand outside courts going their cameras and the faces of families
:17:11. > :17:17.bereaved by murder. It needs to be a wider look at the privacy of