:00:06. > :00:10.can't know where public opinion will end up.
:00:11. > :00:14.On Newsnight Scotland: Around 40 couples are forced to marry against
:00:14. > :00:18.their will every year and those are just the ones we know about. From
:00:18. > :00:21.Monday, new laws come into force to outlaw the practice. How will they
:00:21. > :00:25.work, and will they make any difference?
:00:25. > :00:27.Good evening. It's almost impossible to get a truly accurate
:00:27. > :00:31.picture of how widespread forced marriages are in Scotland, with
:00:31. > :00:34.those involved often too scared to come forward. The new law's
:00:34. > :00:37.ambitious aim is to stamp it out altogether, with the threat of a
:00:37. > :00:42.two-year prison sentence or heavy fine for anyone breaching new
:00:42. > :00:45.protection orders. Julie Peacock has been speaking to one woman who
:00:45. > :00:55.managed to escape being made to marry against her will. She still
:00:55. > :01:00.
:01:00. > :01:07.fears for her safety, so we agreed It's supposed to be one of the
:01:08. > :01:13.happiest days of your life, but it isn't like this for everyone. Some
:01:13. > :01:18.people are coerced, threatened and forced into marriage. Often with
:01:18. > :01:24.someone they barely know. The numbers are small, approximately 40
:01:24. > :01:28.cases a year in Scotland. This woman was almost one of that number.
:01:29. > :01:35.It began as a family holiday to India but one evening she realised
:01:35. > :01:38.a family party was actually to celebrate her engagement. It wasn't
:01:38. > :01:42.until we got to this guy's house and we sat down and I realised that
:01:42. > :01:47.I had been set up. I wasn't going out for dinner. It was dinner, but
:01:47. > :01:51.it was dinner with this guy who I was getting engaged to. I said,
:01:51. > :01:55."I'm not happy with this." Mum said, "Everyone's here, everyone's
:01:56. > :02:00.watching, you have to do this. As your dad says." I don't think I had
:02:00. > :02:05.it in me to embarrass my parents or anything. So I just, I went ahead
:02:05. > :02:10.with it at the time but I was so - I think I was embarrassed. I
:02:10. > :02:15.thought, "I was supposed to be happy and I'm not." I couldn't
:02:15. > :02:18.bring myself to look at the guy. She told me she knew they weren't
:02:18. > :02:23.compatible but refusing wasn't an option. I thought to myself, "How
:02:23. > :02:29.will I get him to change his mind?" I made out I was a slut or
:02:29. > :02:34.something, I said to him, "I sleep around, I drink alcohol all the
:02:34. > :02:38.time. I'm getting raped every night." That was not me. It didn't
:02:38. > :02:45.work. He wasn't caring. He said to me, "Look, I admire you for being
:02:45. > :02:49.honest with you." I thought, "What have I done?" It didn't work for me.
:02:49. > :02:53.I didn't see it as being forced at all. My mum said to me, "Do it for
:02:53. > :02:59.me, do it for your dad, do it for family." I thought, it was me doing
:02:59. > :03:03.the right thing. I didn't realise I was being forced. Her only option
:03:03. > :03:07.was to agree to the marriage as a way of getting out of the situation.
:03:08. > :03:12.So the only way to put it off was to say, "We will get married next
:03:12. > :03:14.year." That was my way of getting back to the UK. If I said, "It is
:03:14. > :03:19.not happening whatsoever, they would force me right into it and
:03:19. > :03:23.get the marriage done there and then." It was only when she got
:03:23. > :03:28.back to Glasgow that she felt safe to call it off. I said to my mum,
:03:28. > :03:31."Look, it is not happening, I'm not doing it, end of." After that,
:03:31. > :03:34.every day there was an argument, there was total drama and I was
:03:35. > :03:38.crying all the time. They said, "You are a disgrace, people are
:03:39. > :03:44.saying if we had a daughter like you, they would cut you up and
:03:44. > :03:49.throw you away." I said, "Why don't you?" Over the next few months, the
:03:49. > :03:53.pressure from the family increased. Everywhere I was going, I had
:03:53. > :03:58.people following me. My mum and dad would turn up at my work to check
:03:58. > :04:01.on me. I had my mobile and laptop taken off me. I had no contact with
:04:01. > :04:06.my friends. My life was in my bedroom and that was it. I would go
:04:06. > :04:16.to my room and they would have dinner, I was a disgrace, I brought
:04:16. > :04:18.
:04:18. > :04:25.shame on them. Most of the reported cases of forced marriages in
:04:25. > :04:29.Scotland were Muslim. Why are we going ahead with it? It is against
:04:29. > :04:33.Islam to force anyone to marry. We have all got rights. Our religion
:04:34. > :04:37.gives us rights. She was lucky. Her parents accepted her decision and
:04:37. > :04:42.they are now rebuilding their relationship. She welcomes the new
:04:42. > :04:46.law but says it needs to be backed up with education. It probably
:04:46. > :04:49.still would have happened if the law had been in place, my parents
:04:49. > :04:52.would have still done the same thing, even if it was against the
:04:52. > :04:59.law to force me. They don't understand. Even to this day, they
:04:59. > :05:04.still don't see it as forced marriage. They still see it as an
:05:05. > :05:08.arranged marriage. I think there is a lot to be done to tell the
:05:08. > :05:14.parents they can do that. It is great that they have put this law
:05:14. > :05:18.in place. They need to explain exactly what forced is.
:05:18. > :05:27.MacKenzie could see parents facing a two-year -- the new law could see
:05:27. > :05:31.parents facing a two-year jail term. I know I wouldn't. I had a very
:05:31. > :05:35.close relationship with my mum and dad growing up. It is something I
:05:35. > :05:43.would never do unless my family was in complete danger and that's when
:05:44. > :05:48.I would approach the police. law comes into force on Monday. But
:05:48. > :05:55.there are many who believe it is only the starting point to making
:05:55. > :05:58.all weddings happy occasions. Joining me now from Edinburgh is
:05:58. > :06:02.Mohammed Akram, the President of the Council of British Pakistanis,
:06:02. > :06:04.and Mridul Wadhwa from Shakti Women's Aid. And here in Glasgow is
:06:04. > :06:14.Smina Akhtar, the director of the charity, Amina, the Muslim Women's
:06:14. > :06:15.
:06:15. > :06:19.Resource Centre. Can we begin with you, first? One of the questions
:06:19. > :06:24.which the woman in that film asked there was when this new law comes
:06:24. > :06:31.in, what would be useful is to explain what the law means by
:06:31. > :06:36."forced". Give us an indication what that word means? The actual
:06:36. > :06:42.legislation does explain very well what is meant by "forced". Force is
:06:42. > :06:48.coercion, threats, parents saying, "We are going to disown you" or,
:06:48. > :06:54."I'm going to kill myself if you don't do this." So it is mental as
:06:54. > :06:59.well as physical? Psychological, physical, also trying to force
:06:59. > :07:02.somebody who is not able to consent, somebody who may be has learning
:07:02. > :07:07.difficulties, mental health problems, or somebody who is under
:07:07. > :07:12.age where it becomes child abuse as well as well as a forced marriage.
:07:12. > :07:17.So force is well explained but the issue is it needs to be explained
:07:17. > :07:22.to the community because I would agree with the young woman who
:07:22. > :07:28.spoke there on the film that I don't think that people in the
:07:28. > :07:31.community know what is meant by "force" in the legislation. Because
:07:31. > :07:35.they might be forgiven for thinking we would like our young son or
:07:35. > :07:40.daughter to get married, we believe we have found an appropriate person
:07:40. > :07:43.for them to have a relationship with, and in any family environment
:07:43. > :07:48.that might lead to pressure. But it is knowing when those pressures
:07:48. > :07:58.have broken the law. That is going to be difficult? It is going to be
:07:58. > :08:03.a difficult law to implement but I think it can work if it is used
:08:03. > :08:08.alongside other processes like mediation, services, advocacy
:08:08. > :08:13.services where we can work with agencies like ourselves in Shakti,
:08:13. > :08:19.can work with potential victims and as the young woman said, she would
:08:19. > :08:25.never have actually gone to the police. That is something that we
:08:26. > :08:29.will experience. It's - I believe that it is only when it is a matter
:08:29. > :08:35.of life and death that people will - it is - the law will be the last
:08:35. > :08:40.resort. It can probably be used as a threat. Let's pick up on that
:08:40. > :08:44.point with Mridul Wadhura. Give us an indication of the scale of this
:08:44. > :08:49.problem in Scotland. It is difficult to come up with exact
:08:49. > :08:54.figures. Some estimates are 40. How accurate is that? I think those are
:08:54. > :08:58.the sort of reported cases of people who come forward asking for
:08:58. > :09:05.help. The problem is probably bigger. As the case study showed,
:09:05. > :09:10.or the woman's story shows, it's very difficult for women to come
:09:11. > :09:14.forward and for us to identify what they have experienced is a forced
:09:14. > :09:19.marriage. But I think the law is for those people who do come
:09:19. > :09:22.forward. Each year, we have women, usually in the single digits,
:09:22. > :09:27.coming forward, saying, "I am experienced forced marriage and I
:09:27. > :09:31.need some help." The problem is underreported. Not fully
:09:31. > :09:34.understood... What point when they have come to an agency like
:09:34. > :09:38.yourself, are they at the point where the marriage is about to take
:09:38. > :09:43.place, where there is physical abuse? At what stage are they by
:09:43. > :09:48.the point they need that kind of help? There are different
:09:48. > :09:52.situations. Usually they come asking for help when they have
:09:52. > :09:58.exhausted all other avenues of resolving this issue within the
:09:58. > :10:03.family. There isn't always physical violence. But they will ask for
:10:04. > :10:07.help from agencies and outsiders when they feel that their point of
:10:07. > :10:13.view is not being heard so they want to take assistance or advice
:10:13. > :10:16.from somebody like Shakti. It varies but usually after they have
:10:16. > :10:21.exhausted speaking to the family, or friends, or people that they
:10:21. > :10:26.know. Mohammed Akram, give us your view on the potential scale of this
:10:26. > :10:30.problem in Scotland? The scale is fairly well similar to what the
:10:30. > :10:37.previous two speakers and your report indicated. It is important
:10:37. > :10:42.to note that our research published in 2004 showed that 38% of the
:10:42. > :10:47.victims were male, so it's both applies to men and women. I think
:10:47. > :10:50.it may be helpful to the listeners to make a distinction between an
:10:50. > :10:54.arranged marriage because we don't want to condemn arranged marriages
:10:54. > :11:00.which is a marriage which takes place arranged by the parents but
:11:00. > :11:07.with the consent of the two, of the both parties involved, where come
:11:07. > :11:11.pattability and social background - - compatability and social
:11:11. > :11:16.background is a big factor. My marriage was arranged 38 years ago
:11:16. > :11:22.and it is happily going along despite the cold weather in
:11:22. > :11:26.Scotland! LAUGHTER And my children who were born in this country are
:11:26. > :11:33.working in the mainstream. Their marriages were arranged in this
:11:33. > :11:37.country. They were initiated by us, but with their full consent. They
:11:37. > :11:42.are all three happily married. you explain to us then, explain to
:11:42. > :11:48.those who don't understand, how it can culturally be possible that you
:11:48. > :11:55.would have these forced marriages? It is because there are loyalties
:11:55. > :11:59.abroad, people trying to maintain links with the country of origin,
:11:59. > :12:03.in my view erroneously. They fail to see the compatability factor of
:12:03. > :12:07.somebody born and brought up in this country, which is the case,
:12:07. > :12:12.marrying somebody from abroad, doesn't matter what the best
:12:12. > :12:17.intention is for your child. It doesn't work. What needs to happen,
:12:17. > :12:22.I think, both the previous two speakers and also the film shows
:12:22. > :12:26.that you need to bring in a broad programme of education, of the
:12:26. > :12:30.communities concerned. Can I pick up on that point with Smina Akhtar?
:12:30. > :12:34.Is there a generational point here, which is if you want to maintain
:12:34. > :12:39.those links with abroad, is there a difference between those who were
:12:39. > :12:43.born abroad and then live here and wanting to maintain those links,
:12:43. > :12:48.are they more likely to be responsible for forced marriages
:12:48. > :12:52.compared to those who have spent their entire lives in Scotland?
:12:52. > :12:59.don't think you can make that distinction. I mean, what you have
:12:59. > :13:02.to remember is there are many marriages that are arranged between
:13:02. > :13:08.people living in Scotland and between those living abroad. They
:13:08. > :13:13.are not forced marriages. wondering on that point of
:13:13. > :13:18.education, which is something all the speakers have mentioned, if you
:13:19. > :13:22.need to educate the parents, where is this going to come from? We have
:13:23. > :13:28.to educate the parents. As the young woman said... Where is that
:13:29. > :13:33.attitude coming from, that forced marriages might be acceptable?
:13:33. > :13:38.Often parents don't understand what "force" is. Go on, you know it is
:13:38. > :13:43.good for the family. That starts, that is the beginning of force.
:13:43. > :13:48.It's when that continues and gets worse and gets worse and when a
:13:48. > :13:53.young person says, "No, I don't want to do that" and it is ignored,
:13:53. > :13:59.that becomes force. We have spoken to many, many women in Scotland
:13:59. > :14:04.from various different generations, young generations, older, who are
:14:04. > :14:09.grandparents as well. They all say no, we would never ever force our
:14:09. > :14:15.children, our grandchildren to marry against their will. I still
:14:15. > :14:19.believe that they still don't understand what force means, what
:14:19. > :14:23.the legislation defines. Mridul Wadhura, can you explain to people
:14:23. > :14:29.because the case study in the film made this point which is the
:14:29. > :14:38.importance it seems that shame plays in this. Explain to people
:14:38. > :14:44.why that is such a powerful element in this? I think because often and
:14:44. > :14:48.more so for women who we work with they are expected to behave in a
:14:48. > :14:56.certain way and listening to your parents, or agreeing with the
:14:56. > :15:03.decisions they are making for you, is vital and anything that moves
:15:03. > :15:10.away from that, that is not fitting into their understanding of how a
:15:10. > :15:15.daughter or a son should behave and seeking help from outsiders can be
:15:15. > :15:20.considered shameful. So it is quite complex this concept of shame. In
:15:20. > :15:25.the context of women in particular, if they don't agree and follow the
:15:25. > :15:30.norms of the traditions of their family, or the culture that they
:15:30. > :15:36.come from, and if they openly challenge it, and usually it means
:15:36. > :15:40.going outside or using the law, going to the police, or involving
:15:40. > :15:43.agencies that the family doesn't want them to involve can be
:15:43. > :15:49.considered shameful as well. Therefore, is the solution that
:15:49. > :15:52.more people ought to challenge it then? I think, yes, I think - I
:15:52. > :15:56.agree with the other speakers. There needs to be greater
:15:56. > :15:59.discussion on the differences between forced and arranged
:16:00. > :16:02.marriages, not just within the communities, but I think people
:16:02. > :16:07.outside of the communities where forced marriages happen should also
:16:07. > :16:12.know that arranged marriages are good things and they are distinct
:16:12. > :16:20.from forced marriages and yes, education is required but we also
:16:20. > :16:24.need to look at gender empowerment as well. Unless we consider women
:16:24. > :16:32.to be more equal, and take away this burden of shame that women
:16:32. > :16:37.carry, it's not going to work. Mohammed Akram, do you think the
:16:37. > :16:40.law will be effective? If you are talking about something which is as
:16:40. > :16:43.important to families as marriage, then they are not going to consider
:16:43. > :16:47.whether it is illegal or not, are they? They will think this is the
:16:47. > :16:54.right thing, we believe this is the correct thing to do? I think the
:16:54. > :16:58.law will be fairly ineffective. Fairly cumbersome to implement for
:16:58. > :17:03.two reasons: First, it takes the easy option out to a very complex
:17:03. > :17:08.problem. It gives the Government a "feel-good factor". But having said
:17:08. > :17:18.that, there are a number of provisions in the law which would
:17:18. > :17:19.
:17:19. > :17:24.be helpful, for example other areas of law concerning children. I think
:17:24. > :17:28.the Court of Session has been fairly progressive in nullifying
:17:28. > :17:34.the marriages which they have considered to be deemed to be
:17:34. > :17:40.forced marriages in the past. The other thing which the - which would
:17:40. > :17:46.be erroneous assumption to make would be that this is primarily a
:17:47. > :17:53.domestic abuse issue. It goes much deeper than that. And therefore the
:17:53. > :18:00.Government really needs to follow policies in line with the
:18:00. > :18:03.legislation to basically carry out a broad programme for education. We
:18:03. > :18:07.as representatives of various organisations shall say loud and
:18:07. > :18:12.clear that this practice is unacceptable, it doesn't fit in
:18:12. > :18:20.with ideology, it is outdated and people should grow up and get out
:18:20. > :18:23.of this practice. Smina Akhtar, the courts saying a marriage is
:18:23. > :18:26.annulled is one thing, but for religious reasons it might be the
:18:26. > :18:34.case that the family will ignore that? How big a problem do you
:18:34. > :18:38.think that is? I think it can be a problem because a marriage -
:18:38. > :18:42.especially with Islamic marriages, with Muslim marriages, if a mairnl
:18:42. > :18:49.is annulled in a court, it needs to be -- if a marriage is annulled in
:18:49. > :18:54.a court, it needs to be annulled Islamically as well. In relation to
:18:54. > :18:59.the point about educating parents, and families, it is very important
:19:00. > :19:03.that we also empower young people... Education, all of you seem to be
:19:03. > :19:07.saying education is a far more important element than the change
:19:07. > :19:11.in the law? If people are going to come forward and say, "We are in
:19:11. > :19:15.the process of being forced into marriage" or, "We have been forced
:19:15. > :19:20.into marriage" then there are a number of support services out
:19:20. > :19:23.there which can help if they do not want to go to court. If they do not
:19:23. > :19:26.want to go to the police, to mediate. That law comes into force
:19:26. > :19:32.on Monday. Thank you all very much indeed for joining us this evening.
:19:32. > :19:37.A quick look at tomorrow's front- pages. Police probe hospital
:19:37. > :19:40.patient privacy breach and society will have to suffer from Neets. The
:19:40. > :19:50.Guardian, revenge of the middle manager. That is all from us.
:19:50. > :19:58.
:19:58. > :20:02.It's a pretty wild night out there. Heavy rain and strong winds
:20:02. > :20:06.sweeping down across the country. It will be chilly and the showers
:20:06. > :20:10.across the north will be wintry. Further south, relatively few
:20:10. > :20:16.showers. One or two getting down through the Midlands. Temperatures
:20:16. > :20:19.will be up into double figures across southern areas. Lots of dry
:20:19. > :20:22.weather across Southern England. A few showers getting down into
:20:22. > :20:27.south-western parts of England by the end of the afternoon. They will
:20:27. > :20:32.have moved through Wales with sunshine returning afterwards. 10
:20:32. > :20:37.degrees in Aberystwyth so quite fresh, I would imagine. Positively
:20:37. > :20:43.chilly further north. For Northern Ireland, sixes and seven also be
:20:43. > :20:46.typical. A fairly wintry -- sevens will be typical. A fairly wintry
:20:46. > :20:52.scene across the far north of Scotland. Now, across northern
:20:52. > :20:57.parts of the UK, it stays disturbed as we go into the weekend. The rain
:20:57. > :21:02.clouds gathering again. Further south, it will be drier, the winds
:21:02. > :21:04.won't be so strong and generally it won't be a bad weekend. Plenty of