:00:02. > :00:12.look for now is that anybody in politics has a practical clue of
:00:12. > :00:14.
:00:14. > :00:16.On Newsnight Scotland: More cash for capital spending, but where
:00:16. > :00:19.does the Chancellor's plan to invest billions of pounds leave
:00:19. > :00:23.projects in Scotland, and is it a sign that George Osborne is taking
:00:23. > :00:26.a leaf out of the First Minister's book?
:00:26. > :00:33.And we speak to Helena Kennedy, the author of a report which says
:00:33. > :00:36.Scotland must do much more to tackle human trafficking.
:00:36. > :00:38.Good evening. As we have been hearing, ahead of his autumn
:00:38. > :00:42.statement tomorrow, the Chancellor, George Osborne, has announced that
:00:42. > :00:46.capital investment across the UK is to get a �30 billion boost from the
:00:46. > :00:51.Treasury. That comes after we were told the Government would
:00:51. > :00:55.underwrite �40 billion worth of loans to small businesses. So, is
:00:55. > :01:04.this a sign of a Plan B, or even Alex Salmond's Plan Mac B? Here's
:01:04. > :01:10.David Allison. In an economic storm, the markets
:01:10. > :01:14.want to see a firm hand on the tiller, but as the economist John
:01:14. > :01:18.Maynard Keynes apparently said, when the facts change, I changed my
:01:18. > :01:23.mind. The lack of growth in the economy means that George Osborne
:01:23. > :01:28.is facing new facts and having to alter course, steady. We are
:01:28. > :01:33.setting out plans today for a 30 billion pound investment in our
:01:33. > :01:38.country's infrastructure, in its roads, railways, schools. Some of
:01:38. > :01:42.that money will come from the Government from savings, much of it
:01:42. > :01:46.is good to come from the private sector, from pension funds, so we
:01:46. > :01:49.use British savings to invest in British jobs and British building.
:01:49. > :01:54.It is the right thing to do a better time like this. We have got
:01:54. > :01:58.to take our country through these difficult times and laid the
:01:59. > :02:03.foundations for future success. work begins on this new crossing
:02:03. > :02:11.over the River Forth, the question is whether or not the Chancellor
:02:11. > :02:18.will take a leaf out of the First Minister's book. This is a 40 %
:02:18. > :02:20.decline from Westminster in capital investment. The Chancellor needs to
:02:20. > :02:30.look at the Scottish experience and learn from it how to get through
:02:30. > :02:36.this recession. At the time, the Conservatives dismissed the plan as
:02:36. > :02:41.political junk food. On this programme last month, the Liberal
:02:41. > :02:50.Democrats were scathing about the proposal. I have no idea what is in
:02:50. > :03:00.the Autumn Statement. I hope it is not plan bullocks, which seems to
:03:00. > :03:01.
:03:01. > :03:06.be coming out. That will not sound like a plan B to them, that will
:03:06. > :03:11.sound like nothing but a lot of mints, and that is what they have
:03:11. > :03:16.come to expect from their First Minister. The SNP government has
:03:16. > :03:21.consistently argued for more capital spending. The Chancellor
:03:21. > :03:26.has got to make a balance and the judgement between the level of
:03:26. > :03:29.borrowing and the opportunities for growth and currently the chance
:03:29. > :03:36.to's judgment about the level of borrowing - - level of borrowing
:03:36. > :03:41.and growth is out of kilter. I am saying a limited programme of
:03:41. > :03:45.capital investment, because without that if we are to be seeing growth
:03:45. > :03:49.at the limited level but we are currently experiencing, then did
:03:49. > :03:55.Chancellor's wider economic projections about tea - - about how
:03:55. > :03:59.he can reduce borrowing will be subject to real pressures. Today
:03:59. > :04:04.there was a warning that the Eurozone and UK could be entering a
:04:04. > :04:11.recession with the UK economy contracting by 0.03 % this quarter
:04:11. > :04:17.and a further 0.015 % next year. They said that and negative events
:04:17. > :04:21.in the euro-zone could even cause a global contraction. Despite a
:04:21. > :04:27.shallow recession in the period from September through to March
:04:27. > :04:33.next year, they do expect positive growth for the whole of 2012 of 0.2
:04:33. > :04:38.% of the Eurozone and 0.5 % for the UK. What is clear is that these are
:04:38. > :04:43.difficult economic times for many countries and there are predicting
:04:43. > :04:47.deep recessions in many European countries. That is a challenge for
:04:47. > :04:50.Britain. What we can do with our policies of dealing with her debts
:04:50. > :04:55.is we can take Britain safely through this tour, which is a key
:04:55. > :05:00.priority, but we have got to lay the foundations for future economic
:05:00. > :05:03.success. A alongside all the facts, something more ephemeral,
:05:03. > :05:08.confidence, and the need for the perception that things will be all
:05:08. > :05:12.right. Perhaps that is why the Chancellor and Shadow Chancellor
:05:12. > :05:17.looked so cosy together on the interview so far at the weekend.
:05:17. > :05:24.believe that Ed Balls has good motives. We're both trying to get
:05:24. > :05:27.the economy going. We have always got on pretty well. I think he has
:05:27. > :05:31.made one big judgment wrong. Tomorrow's Autumn Statement from
:05:32. > :05:37.the Chancellor will be closely studied for signs of steady as she
:05:37. > :05:39.goes, an emerging plan B or even plan Mac be.
:05:39. > :05:42.Joining me now from Westminster is the SNP's Treasury spokesman,
:05:42. > :05:46.Stewart Hosie. In Aberdeen is Malcolm Bruce of the Liberal
:05:46. > :05:54.Democrats. Are we going to get a new plan tomorrow from the
:05:54. > :05:58.Chancellor? No, we are not. We have set a course that has enabled UK
:05:58. > :06:03.borrowing to be the lowest in Europe and the opposition parties
:06:03. > :06:07.advocating policies that were prepared at risk. Anybody needs to
:06:07. > :06:11.think about what effect of 4% increase in their mortgage rates
:06:11. > :06:14.for interest payments would be. That is the danger if we depart
:06:14. > :06:19.from the fundamental objective of bringing the public finances back
:06:19. > :06:24.into order. This additional investment in infrastructure is
:06:24. > :06:30.what opposition parties have been calling for. They have certainly
:06:30. > :06:34.been calling for us to borrow more. What the Chancellor has said is is
:06:34. > :06:38.he is looking for scope to do two things. Bring forward some of the
:06:38. > :06:41.spending commitments that are already there and to pick up for
:06:41. > :06:46.some underspending has taken place. We will have to see how the
:06:46. > :06:56.mechanism will work tomorrow, to unlock private investment that can
:06:56. > :06:59.
:06:59. > :07:03.help projects to come forward. Regardless of where the money is
:07:03. > :07:08.coming from, this is the sort of investment the g have been calling
:07:08. > :07:14.for. Two things that have been said so far. One is the axis the
:07:14. > :07:18.business finance, a key component of our plan. The other was direct
:07:18. > :07:25.capital investment. The Chancellor has said �30 billion worth of
:07:25. > :07:28.infrastructure investment. There is one note of caution here. A great
:07:29. > :07:33.deal of it is going to come from the pension funds, over 10 years.
:07:33. > :07:35.We must make sure tomorrow that there is a big chunk of spending
:07:36. > :07:45.happens up front quickly to give the economy the stimulus it
:07:46. > :07:46.
:07:46. > :07:53.requires. The amount that has been talked about is the sort of amount
:07:53. > :07:56.you think is required, do you? You are claiming the credit for this?
:07:56. > :08:02.The 30 billion is a big figure. That depends so much to be
:08:02. > :08:09.dispensed quickly. If there is 15 or 20 billion spent quickly, then
:08:09. > :08:13.that is a 1% shot in the arm of bird GDP growth, that is a stimulus.
:08:13. > :08:17.At this trouble side over a decade it will not have the impact that it
:08:17. > :08:23.might have. In terms of access to business finance and direct capital
:08:23. > :08:27.expenditure, two of the key exponents of our plan B, I am glad
:08:27. > :08:32.that the Chancellor has changed his mind. Any idea how much of this
:08:32. > :08:36.money will come to projects in Scotland? We will have to see.
:08:36. > :08:42.There is a whole package of measures here which includes access
:08:42. > :08:47.to finance for businesses. Access to the Youth guarantee which will
:08:47. > :08:50.allow businesses and Scotland to take on young people have. There
:08:50. > :08:54.will also be some Barnett extras that will come through to Scotland.
:08:54. > :08:59.The challenge to the Scottish government is that they get this
:08:59. > :09:06.money, will they spend it in ways that will deliver growth? They have
:09:06. > :09:09.not been doing that. The detail is not there in their plan B. A lot of
:09:09. > :09:14.what the Government has been doing in Scotland are flag-waving,
:09:14. > :09:18.populist things that have not made a big difference. The government in
:09:18. > :09:22.England is trying to find ways to unlock money will make a difference
:09:22. > :09:29.in the short run. The Scottish government has to find ways of
:09:29. > :09:37.doing the same. What will you spend any extra money on? What projects
:09:37. > :09:44.will be brought forward? I am sure every local authority and public
:09:44. > :09:50.body have a whole raft of project, housing, schools, roads. Give us a
:09:50. > :09:55.priority. The priority is to keep people in jobs and give GDP growth
:09:55. > :09:59.that boosted knees. I can specify specific projects. If you look at
:09:59. > :10:03.what happened when we profiled the expenditure last time, we had a
:10:03. > :10:07.shorter and shallower recession in Scotland because it worked. Have we
:10:07. > :10:12.have access to the capital this time, the Scottish government and
:10:12. > :10:16.the rest of the public sector will spend just as wisely keeping people
:10:16. > :10:21.in employment and making sure we minimise the risk of recession next
:10:21. > :10:24.time. The SNP government were boasting that Scotland was beating
:10:24. > :10:28.the recession and in reality all that happened was they were ament
:10:28. > :10:32.behind the rest of the UK. They're constantly claiming credit for
:10:32. > :10:36.things outside their control and asserting that things that can
:10:36. > :10:40.happen which were an international crisis, and the scope for any
:10:40. > :10:44.government to turn around is limited. What we can do is give
:10:44. > :10:50.businesses the opportunity to get access to finance, take on young
:10:50. > :10:56.people, put more money into apprenticeships and colleges which
:10:56. > :10:59.Scotland has not done, and targeting infrastructure. Because
:10:59. > :11:05.we be profiled expenditure previously, our recession was
:11:05. > :11:11.shorter and shallower. But isn't Scotland back in recession? That
:11:11. > :11:14.must - - that is not even true. Be cut back capital spending. They
:11:15. > :11:21.stopped projects from going ahead. They claimed credit for things they
:11:21. > :11:24.have not done and they assert they can do things that go outside their
:11:24. > :11:28.control. They should work in partnership and say whether or not
:11:28. > :11:38.they are going to use the money to invest in jobs and growth in a
:11:38. > :11:40.
:11:40. > :11:47.practical way. I want to ask you, this argument, isn't it almost
:11:47. > :11:51.irrelevant, aren't we at the mercy of the Eurozone? I don't think it
:11:51. > :11:57.is a relevant, but people should not lose sight of the fact that
:11:57. > :12:02.none of our trading partners have no growth, we can do it for export
:12:02. > :12:06.opportunities in the growing economies and we can find ways of
:12:06. > :12:11.helping businesses that have the potential to grow by giving them
:12:11. > :12:15.skills and investment. To pretend that we can somehow turn the world
:12:15. > :12:19.economy round by measures from the British government is wrong and
:12:19. > :12:25.dangerous, because at the bar to do a double put interest rates up
:12:25. > :12:34.which will put us deeper into recession. So worried back in
:12:34. > :12:40.recession now? I hope not. The whole economy is flats. The
:12:40. > :12:45.opposition parties would put us back into recession. Are we in
:12:45. > :12:51.recession in Scotland? I don't know because I haven't seen the numbers,
:12:51. > :12:56.the most recent numbers. The Eurozone is struggling. We need to
:12:56. > :13:00.do everything we can domestically to stimulate the economy here,
:13:00. > :13:10.which is why I'm bad it is that unlike he is going to do some of
:13:10. > :13:10.
:13:10. > :13:13.the things that have been leaked Scotland's approach to human
:13:13. > :13:19.trafficking is piecemeal and inconsistent according to a report
:13:19. > :13:24.by Baroness Helena Kennedy. She says got the needs a new system in
:13:24. > :13:31.place before the 2014 commercial games. Trafficking includes not
:13:31. > :13:36.only women in Commercial sexual exploitation but also involved in
:13:36. > :13:40.domestic servitude. Last month, these people became the
:13:40. > :13:44.first in Scotland to be prosecuted for human trafficking. They
:13:44. > :13:50.admitted moving 14 men and women between brothels in Glasgow,
:13:50. > :13:55.Edinburgh, Belfast and Newcastle. The legislation on human
:13:55. > :14:01.trafficking was passed in 2003. The fact that eight years on, this was
:14:01. > :14:06.the first conviction, illustrates the difficulty in prosecuting cases.
:14:06. > :14:10.Today's report calls for more legislation. They also recommend
:14:10. > :14:15.increasing awareness, especially among professionals who may come
:14:15. > :14:22.into contact with victims. They want the police to improve
:14:22. > :14:27.intelligence gathering and the Procurator Fiscal to develop
:14:27. > :14:31.specialisms to improve Prosecutions. And they should be an end to end
:14:31. > :14:38.service to take care of victims. According to figures, 74 people
:14:38. > :14:41.have been trafficked into Scotland since 2009. But that is almost
:14:41. > :14:48.certainly an underestimate. When we do not know the scale of the
:14:48. > :14:51.problem, tackling it will be a huge problem -- challenge. Earlier, I
:14:51. > :14:57.spoke to Baroness Helena Kennedy and asked her why we need new
:14:57. > :15:01.legislation. There is a whole set of legislation around human
:15:01. > :15:06.trafficking. It is very confusing to the police. It is unsatisfactory
:15:06. > :15:09.for those who prosecute these cases. When you bring it all together in
:15:09. > :15:13.one piece of sensible legislation, you know what we are dealing with.
:15:13. > :15:17.We are talking that sex trafficking but that is not the only kind of
:15:17. > :15:22.trafficking. You have the trafficking of migrant labour and
:15:22. > :15:26.also clear evidence of domestic servitude in Scotland. But is there
:15:27. > :15:31.any evidence that the existing law is not good enough to cover the
:15:31. > :15:34.sort of cases which might come up? What the prosecution services would
:15:35. > :15:41.say to you is that one of the problems is that these cases have
:15:41. > :15:47.been falling between roles. There was no sense of who was the lead
:15:47. > :15:50.agency. Sometimes, if police did a raid on drugs and saw foreign women
:15:50. > :15:55.on the premises, they would hand them over to the Border Agency and
:15:55. > :16:00.it would become an immigration issue rather than a crime issue.
:16:00. > :16:05.This is essentially a crime and human rights issue. Crime for the
:16:05. > :16:09.traffickers and human rights issue for the victims. Passing it over to
:16:09. > :16:12.the Border Agency is perhaps about the legality of people living in
:16:12. > :16:16.the country in appropriately and let's see if they should be
:16:16. > :16:23.packaged off home. While -- be a remedy for us, does not a remedy
:16:23. > :16:30.for the people because they would be returned into the arms of the
:16:30. > :16:33.traffickers. The police have said, hands up, there is a gap in the
:16:33. > :16:37.intelligence but that is being addressed now because they have got
:16:38. > :16:41.a specific unit looking at this and prosecutors are developing a
:16:41. > :16:48.specialism. Isn't it fair to give them a chance to see what they can
:16:48. > :16:53.do without tying up Parliament with fresh legislation? If it was always
:16:53. > :16:56.hunky Dory like that you would not have the Lord Advocate coming to
:16:56. > :17:01.the event today saying he wholeheartedly recommended the
:17:01. > :17:04.report and the changes in the law. Lawyers would like to see an
:17:04. > :17:08.aggravating offence, where even if they cannot prosecute for
:17:08. > :17:11.trafficking, if there is a background to brothel keeping where
:17:11. > :17:15.it is clear that trafficking is involved, it could add to the
:17:15. > :17:19.sentences which people have imposed on them. There is a whole set of
:17:19. > :17:23.things which lawyers would like to see happening. There is a problem
:17:23. > :17:27.in Scotland around the corroboration law. It is a source
:17:27. > :17:31.of pride in Scotland that he had have two pieces of evidence at
:17:31. > :17:36.least before you could convict. That will always be problematic
:17:36. > :17:40.when you're dealing with an offence in private. For sex offences, rake,
:17:40. > :17:43.domestic violence, it has always been a problem and there will be a
:17:43. > :17:49.review about whether the corroboration rules are a good
:17:49. > :17:55.thing -- rape. Lord Carlile has called for the corroboration rules
:17:56. > :18:00.to end and you would support that? I would support that. It used to
:18:00. > :18:04.exist in sexual offences in England which was why you could not get
:18:04. > :18:08.convictions in rape cases. Sometimes, a woman can be a very
:18:08. > :18:12.compelling witness or anybody who is traffic can be a compelling
:18:12. > :18:16.witness and a jury can believe them but there is this requirement that
:18:16. > :18:20.evidence comes from another source and that would be difficult in this
:18:21. > :18:25.case. Do you think the authorities in Scotland take trafficking
:18:25. > :18:29.seriously enough? I think there is a real willingness. Everyone who
:18:29. > :18:33.why took evidence from was re clear that they take this seriously. They
:18:33. > :18:43.also felt there was problems with how you dealt with it. What they
:18:43. > :18:46.wanted was a more collaborative approach. They see this as crime
:18:46. > :18:51.and the police want to deal with it as crime. This is about organised
:18:51. > :18:57.crime most of the time. Not always but it usually is about organised
:18:57. > :19:01.crime. What is happening is you are now suddenly seeing local criminals,
:19:01. > :19:05.home-grown criminals and gangs getting interested and seeing money
:19:05. > :19:10.in this and then linking up with international traffickers and
:19:10. > :19:14.wanting in on the act. Once you get that multiplier effect of local
:19:14. > :19:18.criminals connecting up to the Foreign traffickers, you will start
:19:18. > :19:23.seeing this as a very serious problem. We saw it with drugs in
:19:23. > :19:26.the past. You start getting importers linking up with the East
:19:26. > :19:32.End gangs who used to do on robberies but had to diversify into
:19:33. > :19:37.other things. You see other crimes following in the wake. You are keen
:19:37. > :19:41.to see action swiftly, some suggestion that it might be
:19:41. > :19:45.important to see changes before the Commonwealth Games, why is that?
:19:45. > :19:50.Any big sporting event attracts criminality and it attracts this
:19:50. > :19:54.kind, men coming to watch sporting events so you will get traffickers
:19:54. > :19:58.bringing in women from abroad. It has always been, and they
:19:58. > :20:02.discovered that in Greece when they had the Olympic Games there.
:20:02. > :20:06.Scotland could be a pioneer in this and I think there is a willingness
:20:06. > :20:10.to see Scotland taking the lead like they did under domestic
:20:10. > :20:18.violence and they are now doing about mapping organised crime. This
:20:18. > :20:23.is a very important development. Tomorrow's papers, the Scotsman