:00:09. > :00:12.Tonight on Newsnight Scotland. A former leader of the SNP tells us,
:00:12. > :00:18.if Alex Salmond wants independence he should change course on gay
:00:18. > :00:21.marriage. With the Church of Scotland now joining the protests,
:00:21. > :00:26.is Gordon Wilson right? Is the whole issue of same sex marriage
:00:26. > :00:30.turning into a Section 28 moment for the SNP?
:00:31. > :00:33.Good evening. It may be an unlikely source, but organised religion,
:00:33. > :00:38.rather than party political Opposition, is proving to be a most
:00:38. > :00:40.effective block on Alex Salmond's ambitions. He's already run into
:00:40. > :00:44.trouble with the Catholic Church over the anti sectarian legislation.
:00:44. > :00:47.And now the Church of Scotland has given a firm no to his consultation
:00:47. > :00:50.on same sex marriage. There are even warnings it could become an
:00:50. > :00:54.issue in the independence referendum. We'll hear in a moment
:00:54. > :00:58.from a former SNP leader. As Derek Bateman reports, it's a reminder to
:00:58. > :01:08.politicians not to meddle in moral matters. And raises echoes of a
:01:08. > :01:13.
:01:13. > :01:15.The division between Church and State is a facet of Commons
:01:15. > :01:22.governments, whatever the constitution niceties, there are
:01:22. > :01:27.times when you can't separate church from state from controversy.
:01:27. > :01:30.No sooner had the parliament be established in the 1999 at than the
:01:30. > :01:37.Labour Lib Dem coalition alighted in what they seem to think was the
:01:37. > :01:43.talk of the town, the abolition of Clause 28, which prohibited the
:01:43. > :01:48.promotion of homosexuality in schools. What many considered to be
:01:48. > :01:53.a new Scotland, modern, liberal and inclusive, turned out to have an
:01:53. > :01:59.unreconstructed aspect. We will not stand back and allow a politically
:02:00. > :02:06.correct minority to undermine the important position of marriage in
:02:06. > :02:15.our society and determine morality for the majority. We did not vote
:02:15. > :02:18.for it. And we are not having it. Holy Father. Brian Souter had close
:02:18. > :02:23.allies in the Catholic Church. A powerful lobby the SNP has been
:02:23. > :02:28.quoting. I think the public in Scotland had waited long time for
:02:28. > :02:32.the parliament, the expectations were sky high. Labour went into
:02:32. > :02:35.that first parliament not having a proper policy agenda, so to then
:02:35. > :02:40.the poll this rabbit out of a hat, an issue nobody had been talking
:02:40. > :02:45.about, there was a feeling of general despondency that we had
:02:45. > :02:50.voted in this parliament and this is the best they could come up with.
:02:50. > :02:54.And when the issue of sill partnerships emerged, it gave
:02:54. > :02:58.ministers the power to bless them but there was overturned by the
:02:58. > :03:05.church, which allowed openly gay and lesbian ministers to remain in
:03:05. > :03:12.place. But today, but liberal progress came to a juddering halt.
:03:12. > :03:17.The Government's extension of our marriage rights to non- religious
:03:17. > :03:21.marriage and gays. Until the General Assembly reviews has
:03:21. > :03:26.reviewed its position, the position of the Church is quite clear,
:03:26. > :03:33.marriage, as we understand it, and indeed as it is enshrined in Scots
:03:33. > :03:38.law and Scotch culture, is that it is a union between one man and one
:03:39. > :03:43.woman. John Mason, let's begin with you. Not just the Catholic
:03:43. > :03:47.hierarchy has allies but SNP backbenchers. Aren't they supposed
:03:47. > :03:51.to part of the new outward-looking SNP? I'm clear what the Bible says
:03:51. > :03:57.and what many Christie Group say, and you know I'm in a Baptist
:03:57. > :04:03.church and broadly what we believe. I am not wanting for Christian
:04:03. > :04:11.views to be pushed on the rest of society. It was following scripture,
:04:11. > :04:16.it said today, and that redefining moment has repercussions for the
:04:16. > :04:21.well-being of families, the country and individuals. Same-sex couples
:04:21. > :04:28.are not disadvantaged legally or financially by not being able to be
:04:28. > :04:35.married. And there is, therefore, no need to rush this forward
:04:35. > :04:38.without a much fuller debate. And in that debate, we would hope the
:04:38. > :04:45.that the voices of the faith community in Scotland would be
:04:45. > :04:49.heard. There are those in the SNP who believes pressing ahead with
:04:49. > :04:55.legislation could to pay referendum vote against the party. Gordon
:04:55. > :04:59.Wilson is part of the newly formed Scotland for marriage organisation.
:04:59. > :05:03.If the Scottish government once the Scottish people to vote for
:05:03. > :05:08.independence in a referendum, why is it going out of its way to
:05:09. > :05:12.alienate so many Scots in the Christian and Muslim communities?
:05:12. > :05:17.don't think this comes into play in terms of a referendum a tall,
:05:17. > :05:20.because it's going to in the second half of the parliament. Whatever
:05:20. > :05:24.happens with this will be ancient history by that point, and people
:05:24. > :05:28.are not going to vote for the future of the country on the basis
:05:28. > :05:33.of whether gay marriage is allowed. The rally outside parliament
:05:33. > :05:37.yesterday brought together those from the Moslem Trinity at the
:05:37. > :05:44.Church of Scotland, and the First Minister favours change. Could his
:05:44. > :05:49.party split? For a submitted to be meaningful, you need a big beast in
:05:49. > :05:53.a party to be heading up that action. And there isn't that at the
:05:53. > :05:57.moment. He's got some trouble on his backbenches, but nothing which
:05:57. > :06:02.would keep Alex Salmond awake at night. Nobody is using this as part
:06:02. > :06:07.of a wider agenda to try to damage him or the Scottish government in
:06:07. > :06:15.terms of the Cabinet, so I think it is a row he will not wanted to have
:06:15. > :06:19.blundered into, but it's not one which will be meaningful. But it is
:06:19. > :06:26.only a consultation. Time yet for the Government to extricate itself
:06:26. > :06:29.from a troubled match. Now, as you may have seen in the
:06:29. > :06:32.film, one of the leading lights in the campaign Scotland for Marriage
:06:32. > :06:34.is former SNP leader Gordon Wilson. He's also chairman of SOLAS, the
:06:34. > :06:37.Centre for Public Christianity. Earlier this evening, I asked him
:06:37. > :06:46.for his response to the Church of Scotland's decision to oppose gay
:06:46. > :06:50.It's very welcome. The Church of Scotland obviously takes some time
:06:50. > :06:56.to think things out but it's now adding its weight behind the
:06:56. > :07:00.campaign, which is rolling very satisfactory at this stage. What do
:07:00. > :07:05.you think the Scottish government should do now? It depends which way
:07:05. > :07:09.you look at it. As a professional politician of the past, my view is
:07:09. > :07:13.we should never have got into this in the first place. Whether they
:07:13. > :07:19.were blinded by electoral success or not, I don't know. The worry for
:07:19. > :07:24.me, apart from the main issue of same-sex marriage should not be
:07:24. > :07:28.compatible with marriage itself, is that, from the SNP aspect with a
:07:28. > :07:32.referendum on independence coming, they are busy alienating voters.
:07:32. > :07:37.And it's not the time to do it. It's never the time in politics to
:07:37. > :07:44.do it, but not on the eve of a major event like a referendum on
:07:44. > :07:48.independence, which used to be the main aim of the SNP. So you think
:07:48. > :07:53.supporting this is a bad move for the SNP politically? I would have
:07:53. > :07:56.thought so, judging from the information I have received. Also
:07:56. > :08:01.judging by the reaction from the general public. Especially from
:08:01. > :08:07.those who are married at the present time. What they are
:08:07. > :08:11.proposing is unacceptable, and has alienated them from supporting them.
:08:11. > :08:16.You seem to suggest it could even put in jeopardy the campaign for
:08:16. > :08:20.independence? The object of the Rev Brendan is to win it, and if they
:08:20. > :08:25.are not going to win it, you don't hold it. -- referendum. The
:08:25. > :08:29.Government has pledged to go ahead. You have to play your cards with
:08:30. > :08:38.the finesse, and make sure you can persuade the maximum number of
:08:38. > :08:44.people. On a peripheral issue of this, in terms of demand, with only
:08:44. > :08:47.3,300 civil partnerships in six years, compared with 175,000
:08:47. > :08:53.marriages, they are not doing anything but to aid the cause, the
:08:53. > :08:59.doubt for cause, of up political correctness. Are you seriously
:08:59. > :09:05.suggesting people feel strongly enough on this that, by supporting
:09:05. > :09:09.a same-sex marriage, the SNP is committing political suicide on its
:09:09. > :09:17.main issue of independence? It I'm not saying political suicide, but
:09:17. > :09:21.it's quite obvious, on the polls which already exist, the SNP is
:09:21. > :09:27.going to have to work harder to win a majority in the referendum. Every
:09:27. > :09:32.vote lost through alienation on this issue is a vote that could be
:09:32. > :09:35.lost in the referendum itself. That is something that does not affect
:09:35. > :09:39.me because independence for Scotland is very dear to my heart
:09:39. > :09:43.and I shall vote for it, regardless, but there are other people to whom
:09:43. > :09:48.it may have less importance, compared with their faith, their
:09:48. > :09:52.beliefs, or revulsion at the thought the marriage they thought
:09:52. > :09:56.they had entered into between a man and a woman was now going to be
:09:56. > :10:01.tainted in some ways. If I was Alex Salmond, I would say, I respect
:10:01. > :10:06.your point of view in this, however, opinion polls show a majority, a
:10:06. > :10:12.substantial majority, of people in Scotland are in favour of same-sex
:10:12. > :10:17.marriage, so the idea that somehow or I am jeopardising independence
:10:17. > :10:20.by supporting it is nonsense. knows, of course, I have
:10:20. > :10:25.considerable experience banning the political campaigns, and this one
:10:25. > :10:29.has just beginning to run. -- a running. It has attracted a lot of
:10:29. > :10:34.support, bringing the Muslims, the Catholic Church, the Free Church,
:10:34. > :10:41.the Baptist Union, and also, outside the churches, people, who
:10:41. > :10:46.do not go to church, or Christian, but are not complete the dedicated,
:10:46. > :10:49.they just feel this is not a proper way of going about it. Alex is a
:10:49. > :10:53.considered politician and I wouldn't attempt in any way to
:10:53. > :10:58.outguess him. But I would think he would have to think twice, for
:10:58. > :11:04.example, a lot of support for same- sex marriages in the one poem I
:11:04. > :11:08.have seen, is shallow. -- poll. It comprises people who may not be
:11:08. > :11:13.married, people who may not intend to get married but I can tell you
:11:13. > :11:18.this, amongst those who are married and disagree with same-sex marriage,
:11:18. > :11:23.being redefined to encompass marriage as a whole, between same-
:11:23. > :11:28.sex couples and opposite sex couples, as the Government and
:11:28. > :11:32.charmingly describes it,, people will feel more deeper about it and
:11:32. > :11:42.they will vote, whereas many other people who say, oh yes, we are in
:11:42. > :11:45.
:11:45. > :11:49.favour of it, they won't bother to But David Cameron has made it clear
:11:49. > :11:52.but he intends to legislate for same-sex marriage in England, so
:11:52. > :11:57.this is just a catch-up measure. It has incurred your measure by
:11:57. > :12:00.choosing to go this way, but if he had chosen to go the other way, he
:12:00. > :12:05.was equally vulnerable and it would have looked as though Scotland was
:12:05. > :12:10.a backward country and it will it - - not doing what many would see as
:12:10. > :12:16.a progressive piece of legislation? Maybe, but it is political
:12:16. > :12:23.correctness. The implications for society are greater. What will
:12:23. > :12:31.happen to marriage if, say, heterosexual couples decided not to
:12:31. > :12:34.get married because it was tainted? Society can suffer if this happens
:12:34. > :12:40.and it does not appear the government has done a proper front
:12:40. > :12:47.-- analysis to see what the impact will be. So your message would be
:12:47. > :12:51.to Alex Salmond, change your course and do it now? Well, he can do it
:12:51. > :12:53.in a very clever way he normally does things.
:12:53. > :13:00.I'm joined now by writer and commentator Katie Grant, and from
:13:00. > :13:05.Edinburgh by political columnist and biographer David Torrance.
:13:05. > :13:12.David Torrance, what is your assessment of what Gordon Wilson is
:13:12. > :13:17.saying? It -- is it a political threat to the SNP? I don't think it
:13:17. > :13:21.is in practical terms. As Lorraine Davidson said in your film, it is
:13:21. > :13:30.very small beer. Or Gordon Wilson is cleverly doing is playing on
:13:30. > :13:40.fears within the SNP and annoying people by not voting yes to either
:13:40. > :13:43.
:13:43. > :13:47.independence. There are a few avenues where the SNP has been
:13:47. > :13:51.closing down annoyance, including the monarchy, among other things.
:13:51. > :13:54.So Gordon Wilson is playing on that quite effectively. But you do not
:13:54. > :14:00.think he would have much support for what he is saying within the
:14:00. > :14:07.SNP, or do you? There is clearly some support. John Mason, his
:14:07. > :14:12.motion which started this whole Row, and also another SNP MSP, so there
:14:12. > :14:17.is a degree of support. It is not at a critical mass at this moment.
:14:17. > :14:21.What is your take on this, Katie Grant? I think it is unlikely to
:14:21. > :14:27.get away critical mass because of the language being used or stop
:14:27. > :14:32.many Catholics will have been quite shocked by the Cardinal's language.
:14:32. > :14:37.He is also in this Scotland for Marriage movement. The idea we all
:14:37. > :14:41.want to talk about taint and those who are married, like myself, that
:14:41. > :14:46.we might suddenly brush away from our marriages because we feel they
:14:46. > :14:52.are tainted. I do not think it is a tall attractive to young people.
:14:52. > :14:57.Young people who might, in a way, not wish to court gay marriage but
:14:57. > :15:00.my is certainly be put off by the language being used. So Gordon
:15:00. > :15:04.Wilson and the Cardinal are attacking it from the wrong angle
:15:04. > :15:08.with the wrong kind of language. But if you are saying they are
:15:08. > :15:12.wrong to do this, how do we explain the fact that all the main churches
:15:12. > :15:16.and Muslim community now seems signed up for this? I'm not saying
:15:16. > :15:20.the case should not be argued. They are right to argue it. How could
:15:20. > :15:26.they not? For the Catholics in particular, it is part of what they
:15:26. > :15:30.are. What Times saying is that the language used to argue their case
:15:30. > :15:36.is very alienating. -- what I am saying. Particularly to young
:15:36. > :15:41.people, who very my well vote for independence and are certainly not
:15:41. > :15:44.going to be put off because of this issue. And equally well, they will
:15:44. > :15:49.feel uncomfortable with some of the language being used even if they
:15:49. > :15:53.agree with the premise. So even if the Church has got their act
:15:53. > :15:58.together and argue a case in the way you would like them to, it is
:15:58. > :16:02.unlikely to put people off voting one way or the other? I do not
:16:02. > :16:07.think it would. But the language being used at the moment by a
:16:07. > :16:16.Scotland for Marriage is quite alienating in itself. I do not see
:16:16. > :16:19.how they hole to take his board. There is a paradox, because when
:16:19. > :16:25.the Scottish Social Attitudes Survey asked people about this,
:16:25. > :16:31.they got quite a large portion of people saying they were quite
:16:31. > :16:39.relaxed about this. But in the referendum, one in four adults
:16:39. > :16:44.voted against abolishing Section 28, so we have a bit of a mixed bag?
:16:44. > :16:52.would suggest that the referendum was not scientific or rigorous in
:16:52. > :16:55.that way. Up until the 1990s, interestingly, Scotland was
:16:55. > :17:04.actually quite conservative and to the right of England on these dealt
:17:04. > :17:11.with issues. Abortion, divorce and homosexuality. In the past few
:17:11. > :17:14.years, we have seen a shift and now 61% of Scots support same-sex
:17:15. > :17:20.marriage. Interestingly, for the Catholic Church and the show that -
:17:20. > :17:23.- Church of Scotland, both of whom oppose this, the figures indicate a
:17:24. > :17:28.number of their own followers who are at least relaxed about same-sex
:17:28. > :17:36.marriage, so it is certainly the case for them that they are out of
:17:36. > :17:40.kilter with even their own supporters. Do you think, Katie
:17:40. > :17:47.Grant, and I am not sure what your position is, that you're against
:17:47. > :17:54.same-sex marriages? No. I am relaxed about it. Can I ask you to
:17:54. > :17:57.play devil's advocate? You felt they were using the wrong arguments.
:17:57. > :18:02.Even if you did not agree with it, what do you think the Church should
:18:03. > :18:09.be saying? The Church can argue their case but they should argue it
:18:09. > :18:12.in a Christian way. It is a miracle, frankly, that anybody wants to
:18:12. > :18:16.become married in a church when they use such dreadful language
:18:16. > :18:21.about other people. If I were the Church, I would have approached it
:18:21. > :18:26.from a different way and said, this is what we believe. We live in a
:18:26. > :18:30.world now where we don't want to alienate or be aggressive. I would
:18:30. > :18:33.have used much more peaceable language and much more debatable
:18:33. > :18:38.language that people felt they could debate, when I think the
:18:38. > :18:42.language that has been used cuts the debate off at his source. There
:18:42. > :18:51.is no point and having a consultation when people are
:18:51. > :18:55.talking about "at painted" and "has become more". They might have
:18:55. > :19:00.brought a whole load of people with them if they had used other
:19:00. > :19:09.language. People in the pews will not agree but the hierarchy and are
:19:10. > :19:15.even less likely to agree now. Scotland for Marriage - the whole
:19:15. > :19:19.thing. It seems confused. We talked earlier on about whether the SNP
:19:20. > :19:24.was at risk because of this campaign Gordon Wilson is involved
:19:24. > :19:29.in. You were suggesting they were not. Other churches at risk?
:19:29. > :19:33.Because of what Katie Grant is saying. Church attendances are not
:19:33. > :19:37.exactly rocketing, are they? Are they at risk of having what remains
:19:37. > :19:41.of their credibility damaged by this? In the case of the Church of
:19:41. > :19:47.Scotland, this does look very odd, though I suspect their position has
:19:47. > :19:51.more to do with internal matters. They have had a fractious time over
:19:51. > :19:56.this issue in other respects, of course, and perhaps they do not
:19:56. > :20:01.want to antagonise the evangelical wing. But I do foresee difficulty
:20:01. > :20:05.for the SNP on this if the consultation ends and they come out
:20:05. > :20:11.unequivocally for gay marriage and civil and religious. That will
:20:12. > :20:21.annoy the Catholic Church. Alex Salmond has gone out of his way to
:20:21. > :20:24.court. But if they've budget, as Gordon Wilson was suggesting, -- if
:20:24. > :20:32.they've fudged it, they might be able to do that without supporting
:20:32. > :20:37.civil marriage but not full marriage. We have to leave it there.
:20:37. > :20:41.A quick look at the front pages. The Financial Times leading with
:20:41. > :20:51.the present crisis and talking about fuel poverty in The Guardian.
:20:51. > :20:58.
:20:58. > :21:05.Good evening. Turning out to be take-off at -- quite a cold night
:21:05. > :21:11.with a fairly widespread frost. A chilly start to Friday morning with
:21:11. > :21:15.patches of ice overnight. Through Friday, most places will have
:21:15. > :21:20.Beeson sunshine but it will tend to turn cloudy in the West as we go
:21:20. > :21:25.through the afternoon. In the East, some decent sunshine. As we travel
:21:25. > :21:28.further west, it is here where we will notice the freshening south-
:21:28. > :21:35.westerly breeze up, and eventually we will have outbreaks of rain
:21:35. > :21:42.moving in, following the cloud. It turns cloudier on Friday afternoon
:21:42. > :21:47.with rain pushing into western counties, with quite damp weather
:21:47. > :21:51.for the Isle of Man. Temperatures are at around four, five degrees
:21:51. > :21:55.for Northern Ireland with outbreaks of rain, and turning to snow over
:21:55. > :22:00.the Scottish mountains before milder air moves in. For Friday and
:22:00. > :22:04.Saturday, we start to lose the outbreaks of rain and it should be
:22:04. > :22:10.drier through England and Wales over the weekend. The exception is
:22:10. > :22:14.several parts on Saturday, where we will see outbreaks of rain. The