:00:08. > :00:11.finger on. It is a debate that is Tonight on Newsnight Scotland,
:00:11. > :00:13.thousands of people are facing a second night without power after
:00:13. > :00:23.the most significant damage to the electricity network in over a
:00:23. > :00:24.
:00:24. > :00:28.decade. We'll hear from one of the main energy companies. And what can
:00:28. > :00:32.we learn from yet bit of extreme weather? Do we now need to invest
:00:32. > :00:35.to help the country to stand up better - or have we all just become
:00:35. > :00:37.too used to expecting that the comforts we rely on will be there
:00:37. > :00:40.all the time? Good evening. About 20,000
:00:40. > :00:42.households remain without power tonight after the storm yesterday
:00:42. > :00:45.proved more powerful and more damaging than anyone predicted.
:00:45. > :00:48.We'll be asking whether anything could or should be done to make the
:00:48. > :00:51.country better able to withstand such storms, or whether we should
:00:51. > :01:01.be prepared simply to put up with it. But first, David Allison looks
:01:01. > :01:02.
:01:02. > :01:06.at the efforts made today to get thing back to normal. At new year
:01:06. > :01:11.we are used to that morning after feeling, but maybe not like this.
:01:12. > :01:16.The big clear-up is on the way in Scotland. Some of it can only be
:01:16. > :01:25.done on an industrial scale by heavy machinery. Mother Nature
:01:25. > :01:33.visited with a vengeance. People have come and physically unscathed.
:01:33. > :01:41.The first thing that hits me is the devastation for people. It is awful.
:01:41. > :01:47.There has been no physical suffering. But what will we supper
:01:47. > :01:53.in the future with at the shock? For many less seriously affected,
:01:53. > :02:01.there is still work to be done to restore order. At one of point
:02:01. > :02:08.yesterday, 100,000 people were without electricity. We generally
:02:08. > :02:13.have trees down. We got a couple of trees back. We have to fix polls.
:02:13. > :02:17.Many hundreds of polls were broken. We have to get the conductor's back
:02:17. > :02:21.up on the line and restore suppliers. -- conductors. This is
:02:21. > :02:27.fairly typical of what we're facing. Some of the damage will be
:02:27. > :02:32.expensive, not least for insurance companies. But alongside concern
:02:32. > :02:36.about the eventual bill, the mood seems to be one of relief. This is
:02:36. > :02:43.the remnants of the chimney stack. There was a big chimney pot which
:02:43. > :02:49.was intact. It came all weighed down by itself. These are the front
:02:49. > :02:56.steps. During heavy trees is not something that can be done in an
:02:56. > :03:00.instant. -- keyring. As road and rail services start to return to
:03:00. > :03:05.normal and we take in the scale of yesterday's storm, the impact could
:03:05. > :03:08.very easily have been much worse. Just before we came on air I spoke
:03:08. > :03:11.to Scottish Hydro's Julian Reeves from their headquarters in Perth. I
:03:11. > :03:18.began by asking him why it was proving particularly difficult to
:03:18. > :03:22.reconnect some of his customers. Whenever we have a storm that
:03:22. > :03:26.affects us the way this one has, where a huge number of trees have
:03:26. > :03:36.been brought down, there are difficulties with getting to parts
:03:36. > :03:41.of the network to carry out the repairs. This inevitably delays
:03:41. > :03:45.when we're able to start carrying out repairs. If the wind continues
:03:45. > :03:55.for a long period of time, it can be physically unsafe for the
:03:55. > :04:02.engineers. While we can reconnect customers remotely from our
:04:02. > :04:07.emergency centre, we do have to get men out there working on the
:04:07. > :04:13.network to get some customers reconnected. Until it is safe to do
:04:13. > :04:17.so, that gives us a problem. What is the main problem? Is it that you
:04:17. > :04:27.have trees falling on power lines? Is that the main source of these
:04:27. > :04:33.power cuts? Is it the bits of kit that had been damaged by the wind?
:04:33. > :04:37.No. Electricity network is capable of dealing with wind speeds in
:04:37. > :04:42.excess of those we have seen this week. It is a combination of trees
:04:42. > :04:46.and other wind borne of debris that is the problem. We have had
:04:46. > :04:51.everything from garden sheds two caravans breaking polls and
:04:51. > :04:57.bringing conductors down. there's a bolster the regulations
:04:57. > :05:06.that you cannot put power lines a certain distance from a tree, or
:05:06. > :05:11.plant at three close to a power line? -- plant a tree? Yes, there
:05:11. > :05:16.are safe limits within which we have to keep trees cut back from
:05:16. > :05:20.overhead lines. Those limits are designed to keep the general public
:05:20. > :05:25.safe, to stop children climbing trees and being able to touch lines.
:05:25. > :05:28.It would be impossible in most parts of rural Scotland to have
:05:29. > :05:34.electricity networks where there are no trees within four lane
:05:35. > :05:43.distance of the lines themselves. A lot of our lines are carried across
:05:43. > :05:49.plantation forests. Many people will be familiar with this. As the
:05:49. > :05:57.trees grow taller, the risk of them falling on the lines increases.
:05:57. > :06:04.think we have got 20,000 families still without power. When do you
:06:04. > :06:07.think they will be reconnected? Within the Scottish Hydro area, we
:06:08. > :06:12.think that by the time the engineers have stood down for the
:06:12. > :06:17.night tonight, which will be close to midnight, we will have the
:06:17. > :06:21.number of customers still without power downpour about 3,000. The
:06:21. > :06:26.engineers will be out first thing in the morning. We will work hard
:06:26. > :06:30.to reconnect those customers. We are confident that all but a small
:06:30. > :06:33.handful will have their power restored tomorrow.
:06:33. > :06:38.I also spoke to Phil Flanders from Perth, who is from the Road Haulage
:06:38. > :06:48.Association. I asked him why some hauliers had took to the roads
:06:48. > :06:54.yesterday when it wasn't safe to do so. The severe weather warning did
:06:54. > :06:58.not come through and have about half past eight. Many of the lorry
:06:58. > :07:03.drivers were on their journey by then. I praise them highly for
:07:03. > :07:10.their skills and the fact there were only eight that overturned.
:07:10. > :07:13.That was about the same as it was on the 7th and 8th December.
:07:13. > :07:20.individual drivers have discretion to stop driving in a situation like
:07:20. > :07:27.that? Health and safety comes first. The majority of hauliers would
:07:28. > :07:33.always take the word of the driver. If the driver was unsafe, they
:07:33. > :07:40.would allow the driver to stop. It could be just as mad dash back it
:07:40. > :07:45.could be just as bad not moving. We had an issue the last time with
:07:45. > :07:51.livestock vehicles because not only have you got a high-sided vehicle,
:07:51. > :07:57.you have animal-welfare. In theory, that lorry driver should go find
:07:58. > :08:05.somewhere safe to off load the livestock. In situations like
:08:05. > :08:09.yesterday it is not practical. does it feel like, how do you know
:08:09. > :08:17.if you're driving an articulated truck, that this win is getting
:08:17. > :08:21.dangerous? -- wind. You can feel the truck moving. It depends on the
:08:21. > :08:26.kind of a load you have. If you have got in a heavy load, you're
:08:26. > :08:31.less susceptible to the wind. It is mostly the empty ones or the light
:08:31. > :08:36.ones that get captured by the wind. Most of the vehicles yesterday that
:08:36. > :08:41.tipped over were empty. It is a very difficult situation to gauge.
:08:41. > :08:47.You can feel it in a car. With a lorry, it depends on the type of
:08:47. > :08:52.road, the type of conditions and how heavy the load is. It is not an
:08:52. > :08:57.easy job. I think all praise should go to the lorry drivers on the
:08:57. > :09:03.roads, not only in the high winds but in the conditions we face.
:09:03. > :09:09.have an agreement with the Scottish Government that was discussed last
:09:09. > :09:13.year, first snow and ice. It has now been extended for a high winds.
:09:13. > :09:18.Is that agreement working? This is an agreement that you would
:09:18. > :09:21.voluntarily stop driving under certain conditions? We agree with
:09:21. > :09:26.the Scottish Government that we would put Howard bulletins to the
:09:26. > :09:31.hauliers in our membership to let them know and they would have to
:09:31. > :09:35.make their own judgment as to whether it was safe. We have been
:09:35. > :09:39.speaking to transport Scotland regularly. We have a meeting soon
:09:39. > :09:45.to discuss an update on what has been happening. We will look at
:09:45. > :09:51.other options. The problem yesterday was what, you got the
:09:51. > :09:55.warnings to Lake? I don't think anybody expected what we got
:09:56. > :10:01.yesterday. Everybody knew there were high winds coming but not to
:10:01. > :10:09.the degree we got them. We need to take cognisance of what happened
:10:09. > :10:19.yesterday and look ahead, which is why we will be having discussions
:10:19. > :10:23.Snow, rain and now hurricane-force winds seemed to be battering
:10:23. > :10:26.Scotland on a far more regular basis. Unpredictable and
:10:26. > :10:30.unprecedented storms, and yet we as a country want everything back to
:10:30. > :10:36.normal as quickly as possible. We want a UN -- we seem unwilling to
:10:36. > :10:40.accept allies can be -- our lives can be turned upside-down by
:10:40. > :10:45.weather, and we also wants to point the finger quickly and blame people.
:10:45. > :10:49.It was not always like this. This was one of central Scotland's
:10:49. > :10:54.worst natural disasters. The Great Storm of 1968. 20 people were
:10:54. > :11:00.killed, 2000 were left homeless, but yet no one blamed the Met
:11:00. > :11:04.Office or the power companies or the government. In the last two
:11:04. > :11:14.years, several storms have battered -- battered this country. First it
:11:14. > :11:15.
:11:15. > :11:19.was this snow. Millions of pounds have been spent on more snowploughs.
:11:20. > :11:23.then this year, the wind. Something has changed in 40 years. When
:11:23. > :11:27.things go wrong, we want them put right again, not next week, not
:11:27. > :11:36.tomorrow, but today. We have measured these things, and over the
:11:36. > :11:40.past -- past 40 years there has been an increase in every decade of
:11:40. > :11:48.selfishness, low levels of all Tristan and an increase in
:11:48. > :11:53.selfishness. Every generation is more narcissistic and selfish and
:11:53. > :11:58.less altruistic than the one that came before them. Hundreds of
:11:58. > :12:03.engineers have battle to restore power supplies. Network Rail had to
:12:03. > :12:07.remove 856 trees from tracks. And the complaints rolled in. Over 1000
:12:07. > :12:13.calls to Scottish Power alone in the last 24 hours. He Freud has a
:12:13. > :12:20.thing when he says, in the end, we all have to die. There is no point
:12:20. > :12:23.sticking out a manager at to complain, because they cannot do
:12:23. > :12:29.anything to stop it. It is deep within us that there is a manager
:12:29. > :12:33.to complain is, -- complained to, and nowadays you can go online and
:12:33. > :12:37.complain in many different ways many times. The damage has been to
:12:37. > :12:45.there and it has shown how vulnerable we have become. -- the
:12:45. > :12:49.damage has been severe. Will it change the way we build? All of the
:12:49. > :12:53.buildings that tuck hanging off trees are light weight. In some
:12:54. > :13:00.ways, we have to think about producing things that are heavier
:13:00. > :13:05.and held down. This storm is said to be the worst in a generation. A
:13:05. > :13:10.generation more reliant on modern comforts. Without them, we may feel
:13:10. > :13:15.vulnerable. But with them, I'll be happier? We are less nice, we're
:13:15. > :13:22.more selfish and narcissistic. We are also less conformist. We are
:13:22. > :13:25.more creative. In a funny way, we might even be happier because
:13:25. > :13:28.happiness comes with individuality. And at least there are still some
:13:28. > :13:35.out there who have found something to do without the aid of
:13:35. > :13:41.electricity. Just cuddle up, Peter, then! That all we can do! Cuddle up
:13:41. > :13:47.for the day! We are joined from Edinburgh by a
:13:47. > :13:51.Alan Fowler, chair of Iso-Cron, a management consultancy and an
:13:51. > :13:57.expert in planning. Hit in Glasgow is Charlie Maclean-Bristol, from
:13:57. > :14:01.Plan B Consulting which specialises in resilience and crisis management.
:14:01. > :14:06.The we agree with the professor that we have all become
:14:06. > :14:11.narcissistic and expect everything to work? I think I do. I think if
:14:11. > :14:15.we look forward and say, how would we live in a society that didn't
:14:15. > :14:22.react to storms in a way that we have seen, we have to ask, how
:14:22. > :14:26.would we reverse that? We are very interested in creating a futures
:14:26. > :14:31.which other resolution of the problems we encounter today. What
:14:31. > :14:37.do you mean by that? Well, for example, in the case of this storm,
:14:37. > :14:42.we would say it let's look at what we did not like at the way we
:14:42. > :14:45.reacted to. Consider the opposite was the case, that Scotland was
:14:45. > :14:48.renowned for its resilience to unexpected events. And ask
:14:48. > :14:53.ourselves, if that were the case, what would it look like and how
:14:53. > :14:56.would we have got there? In particular day, we have been
:14:56. > :15:02.experimenting for eight years with planning not forwards in the
:15:02. > :15:05.present but backwards from an imagined future. OK, I think I am
:15:05. > :15:12.getting this. What is the conclusion? If you did that, what
:15:12. > :15:16.conclusions do you come to? What we have found in the eight years of
:15:16. > :15:21.case studies we have done, largely in commercial environments, is that
:15:21. > :15:25.we get some surprising conclusions about what to do. I have very
:15:25. > :15:30.little doubt that in the case of the storm, and preparation for
:15:30. > :15:35.storms, we would find that the secret lies in how not to change
:15:35. > :15:38.public perception and public values -- how to change public perception
:15:38. > :15:44.and public values, very much reversing what the professor said.
:15:44. > :15:48.Do you agree with that? I think I do. I think we have to take the
:15:48. > :15:52.storm in context. The thing about the storm is to say, it brings it
:15:52. > :15:56.all to our minds, but there are small disasters going on every day.
:15:56. > :16:02.There are factories burning down, floods, there are lots of other
:16:03. > :16:07.events. I think what we must not do his chase the last disaster. I was
:16:08. > :16:14.in a supermarket and everyone was buying madly snow shovels, and we
:16:14. > :16:19.find out in the next instant it was the wind. I think businesses and
:16:19. > :16:22.organisations need to prepare for disasters, all the time, not just
:16:22. > :16:26.when it is in the public focus like this thing. I think we need to do
:16:26. > :16:30.more to prepare. There is one obvious point to make about this.
:16:30. > :16:36.It is deeply inconvenient and can - distressing for people to have
:16:36. > :16:40.their power cut-off for so long. This is not a disaster in any
:16:40. > :16:44.meaningful sense. Two people died, one in the English Channel and one
:16:44. > :16:50.in Kent yesterday. A few people were in hospital from a caravan
:16:50. > :16:55.site in Argyll. It is not exactly like the judge -- Japan nuclear
:16:55. > :17:00.disaster. Know, but there will be the local firms, had been disasters,
:17:00. > :17:04.perhaps from the power cuts their computers have gone and they will
:17:05. > :17:08.not go back on again. Computers do not like just been turned off.
:17:08. > :17:14.There will be all these hidden disasters behind here that will
:17:14. > :17:19.never make the news. They will have a big impact on the business.
:17:19. > :17:24.are hidden economic problems, not disasters. It could be a disaster
:17:24. > :17:28.for that particular company. It could put it out of business. If
:17:28. > :17:31.they are fulfilling their January orders and they cannot find them on
:17:31. > :17:37.their computers, that could be a major disaster and put them out of
:17:37. > :17:41.business. I am still, I still don't quite understand what you are
:17:41. > :17:47.saying. You said, we should take the lesson of this storm to change
:17:47. > :17:51.people's expectations. Change them how? What is it you want to change?
:17:51. > :17:57.What we have got to first step -- set-up is how we would have liked
:17:57. > :18:01.to have reacted. A you have said that before. All right, let's say
:18:01. > :18:08.we would like to have reacted better, would you conclude?
:18:08. > :18:11.conclude from that that each individual needs to be more
:18:11. > :18:18.prepared. Charlie made this point. More prepared for what they would
:18:18. > :18:23.do if... Individuals need to keep in mind what can happen and become
:18:23. > :18:27.personally prepared for it. Instead of rushing out the snow shovel
:18:27. > :18:31.because there has just been a heavy snowfall, perhaps always to keep a
:18:31. > :18:41.shovel available as a lot of people do. Your point about timing,
:18:41. > :18:42.
:18:42. > :18:46.perhaps, tying in with Charlie Maclean-Bristol's., would be not
:18:46. > :18:50.worrying too -- worrying about buying a Serb -- a snow shovel but
:18:50. > :18:55.worry about your computer having surge protection. We have
:18:55. > :19:01.businesses that do this. Ossicles - - hospitals have to keep going
:19:01. > :19:11.through fire, as quick and flat, so they have back-up generators. We
:19:11. > :19:14.have become habits lazy and leave it to other people to deal with. I
:19:14. > :19:20.was staying with friends, they could not access the internet
:19:20. > :19:24.because the power was off but then we realised we had mobile phones.
:19:24. > :19:28.Obviously, you can be personally more prepared. But there are
:19:28. > :19:32.certain things like, people were, they were not complaining but they
:19:32. > :19:36.were upset that they could not fly to London or take the train to
:19:36. > :19:43.London yesterday. That is not, you cannot beat more personally
:19:43. > :19:46.prepared for that. No, I think we have to accept that some of these
:19:46. > :19:51.things happen. That goes in life. These storms do not happen that
:19:51. > :19:55.often. And I think we sort of forget about them every so often,
:19:55. > :20:01.and it takes the storm to remind us that we actually should have
:20:01. > :20:05.prepared for it. We had a very short power cut before the big
:20:05. > :20:09.power cut here, and actually, we were madly running around to find
:20:09. > :20:17.torches and candles. When the power cut came, which was a much longer
:20:17. > :20:22.one, we were prepared. These things remind us of our fallibility. We
:20:22. > :20:31.cannot have all these things all the time. I agree with Alan's..
:20:31. > :20:35.People need to be better prepared and aware of that. Is there some
:20:35. > :20:40.new research, Alan Fowler, that being better prepared from an
:20:40. > :20:44.organisation's point of view, say, for the public sector for weather,
:20:44. > :20:49.it is not necessarily just about spending more money. I am making
:20:49. > :20:55.this example up. Let's say, you might conclude from the snow and
:20:55. > :21:01.ice this time last year, but you necessarily have to buy hundreds
:21:01. > :21:05.more snowploughs. You might have learnt the lesson of where things
:21:05. > :21:08.were worst, of why you might want to park the snowploughs. That is
:21:08. > :21:13.absolutely right. What we have found in the last four years, we
:21:13. > :21:17.are doing work in the public sector, is that often the solution lies
:21:17. > :21:23.with changing the public's perceptions. With making the public
:21:23. > :21:28.feel more responsible for their own circumstances, and a little less
:21:28. > :21:33.dependent on local authorities and government to do things for them.
:21:33. > :21:36.So it is that personal preparation, and a personal sense of
:21:36. > :21:41.responsibility which probably lie on the path to a better reaction to
:21:41. > :21:46.storms like this. But organisations can be better prepared for scripted
:21:46. > :21:49.and to have some example about ambulance waiting times in England,
:21:49. > :21:53.that they found if they have put the ambulances in different places,
:21:53. > :21:59.they were much better? That is quite right. Some years ago, there
:21:59. > :22:02.were target for ambulance response times for accidents. I think it was
:22:02. > :22:07.around the Birmingham area, the authority decided that the right
:22:07. > :22:10.way to do this was to find out where the accident happened and
:22:10. > :22:15.position the ambulances close to the site. That way you could get
:22:15. > :22:19.there fast response times. We also find that the backward planning
:22:19. > :22:23.produces smart or clever solutions which have not otherwise been
:22:23. > :22:28.considered. So that is what you don't mean by it backward, do you
:22:28. > :22:32.agree with that? Yes, I think you can he do that, but we have not
:22:32. > :22:37.talked about communication. Communication from the government
:22:37. > :22:41.have done a lot better, they have been caught out in the past. It is
:22:41. > :22:46.businesses that need to communicate better. I remember when the floods
:22:46. > :22:51.happened, in Cornwall, there was a famous story of a travel agent who
:22:51. > :22:55.ran out of his shop with a computer under one arm, and telephone under
:22:55. > :22:59.another, set up in his house and was running his business. I went on
:22:59. > :23:04.his website and he did not have anything on his website saying, I