:00:03. > :00:13.there is a lot that has gone from or vile and elsewhere and they feel
:00:13. > :00:18.On Newsnight Scotland, we go back to today's developments in the
:00:18. > :00:21.long-running drama of the Scottish independence referendum. The story
:00:21. > :00:24.so far... David Cameron tells his Cabinet he
:00:24. > :00:28.wants to help democracy by legislating on the running of the
:00:28. > :00:34.referendum. Alex Salmond's team say they do not
:00:34. > :00:37.really welcome his intervention. Good evening. If you have just
:00:37. > :00:41.switched on, you will have missed our London colleagues dissecting
:00:41. > :00:44.the debate over timing and other details of the Scottish referendum.
:00:44. > :00:50.It is an event in itself, a Scottish story leading the UK
:00:50. > :00:53.edition of Newsnight. Anyway, regular viewers of
:00:53. > :00:55.Newsnight Scotland will know a bit more about the arguments marshalled
:00:55. > :00:59.on the referendum and, in particular, its timing and what
:00:59. > :01:02.will be printed on the ballot paper. We will discuss more of that
:01:02. > :01:12.shortly, but first, David Allison brings a bit of history right up to
:01:12. > :01:13.
:01:13. > :01:17.date. June the 2014 will be the seven hundredth anniversary of the
:01:17. > :01:23.Battle of Bannockburn, where King Edward was famously sent home to
:01:24. > :01:28.think again by the Scots. David Cameron wants to accelerate things.
:01:28. > :01:34.Perhaps he is thinking more of the Battle of Flodden, which will be
:01:34. > :01:43.500 years ago in September of this year. On that occasion, the Scots
:01:43. > :01:49.did not do so well. I am getting the questions, is the union going
:01:49. > :01:52.to stay together, his column going to split apart, should I invest in
:01:52. > :01:56.the country. These are the sort of questions I am getting from
:01:56. > :02:03.companies. We would do not want to dictate this, but we want to
:02:03. > :02:08.resolve it. I do not think Westminster should be getting
:02:08. > :02:13.themselves involved in this. The Scottish National Party was elected
:02:13. > :02:21.a few months ago with an overwhelming mandate to half an
:02:21. > :02:25.independence referendum in this term. For a party with independence
:02:25. > :02:35.at their core, it may seem rather strange that the timing of the
:02:35. > :02:41.
:02:41. > :02:48.referendum is what is causing them grief. I believe the legislation
:02:48. > :02:52.going through Parliament has to be the priority. This is needed to get
:02:52. > :03:00.economic recovery going and that will push the score when bill into
:03:00. > :03:06.the second half of the Parliament. George Osborne warned that the lack
:03:06. > :03:12.of clarity mate damage the Scottish economy, claims rejected by the
:03:12. > :03:17.First Minister. A I think the uncertainty that hangs over the
:03:17. > :03:22.Scottish economy because of what the First Minister is seen as
:03:22. > :03:27.regards this referendum, is damaging investment and there are
:03:27. > :03:31.major businesses asking me as Chancellor, tell me what is going
:03:31. > :03:35.on in Scotland? We are worried about investing. I have told want
:03:35. > :03:41.to go ahead and invest, but I have to say that these questions are
:03:41. > :03:48.being asked anything get as the direct impact on Scottish jobs and
:03:48. > :03:54.prosperity. That is stuff and nonsense from George Osborne. He
:03:54. > :03:57.cannot name one of the companies that he referred to. I can tell you
:03:57. > :04:04.it lots of major companies who have invested in Scotland and the last
:04:04. > :04:11.few months. There seems to be some confusion over the legality of who
:04:11. > :04:15.would be in charge of any referendum. We believe there is a
:04:15. > :04:19.clear legal position. I will be setting out what the legal view is
:04:19. > :04:25.in the House of Commons and indicating how we ensure that we
:04:25. > :04:33.can get the referendum on fair and decisive terms, beginning with the
:04:33. > :04:36.proper debate about Scotland's future. It is not a legal issue, it
:04:36. > :04:40.is the political question. Will Alex Salmond come clean about what
:04:40. > :04:45.he really wants? If he wants complete independence he should
:04:45. > :04:49.have the guts to go out and make that case to the Scottish people
:04:49. > :04:58.and not constantly confuse things by singer should maybe be a
:04:58. > :05:02.multiple choice question. So, the stakes have been written by the UK
:05:02. > :05:04.government demanding when the referendum will be taken. But for
:05:04. > :05:12.their part, the Scottish nationalists and to be taking this
:05:12. > :05:16.in their stride. And I could take a fully relaxed view and say that the
:05:16. > :05:21.more they Tory-led government tries to interfere in Scottish democracy
:05:21. > :05:25.the more the case for independence will increase. But there is a case
:05:25. > :05:30.for democratic principle and the people and Scholl and should have a
:05:31. > :05:35.referendum within the timescale that they voted for. At want a
:05:35. > :05:41.referendum that is clear, fair, legally challengeable and offers
:05:41. > :05:47.the people of Scotland to guide their own future. I believe that
:05:47. > :05:52.referendum should be brought forward as soon as possible.
:05:52. > :05:57.Tonight, the SNP say they are sticking to the idea of the
:05:57. > :06:00.referendum in the second half of the Parliament, but the pressure is
:06:00. > :06:04.mounting on what questions they intend to ask.
:06:04. > :06:07.You saw Secretary of State Michael Moore in the film there. He was not
:06:07. > :06:10.able to join us on the programme tonight, but says he will do
:06:10. > :06:13.tomorrow, after he has addressed the House of Commons on the subject.
:06:13. > :06:16.It is expected that he will tell MPs he will transfer the
:06:16. > :06:19.unambiguous legal powers to Edinburgh to hold the referendum,
:06:19. > :06:23.without a specific time limit, but specifically only for a simple Yes
:06:23. > :06:27.or No vote on independence. He will also rule out votes for under-18s
:06:27. > :06:33.and require supervision by the UK Electoral Commission.
:06:33. > :06:36.However, we can hear more of the SNP's view of today's developments.
:06:36. > :06:46.Deputy party leader Nicola Sturgeon came into this studio a short while
:06:46. > :06:50.
:06:50. > :06:57.ago. I asked her if she'd had a party had any idea of accepting the
:06:57. > :07:02.UK government proposals? We started the day with them are suggesting a
:07:02. > :07:10.timescale on by the end of the day, there was news of the retraction
:07:10. > :07:14.from Matt and a split within the coalition. But if they are going to
:07:14. > :07:20.offer you legal cover about your ability to hold a referendum, what
:07:20. > :07:30.is there not to like? I do not think we need legal cover, but if
:07:30. > :07:34.they think we do then fine. But there is no strings attached - the
:07:34. > :07:39.Scottish people voted for us to be able to control that. They should
:07:39. > :07:47.not be interfering in something which has should be decided by the
:07:47. > :07:54.Scottish people. They are not setting any time limit, so what
:07:54. > :07:58.strings are you talking about? are still waiting to hear it. I do
:07:58. > :08:02.not think there should be any strings attached, because I do not
:08:02. > :08:07.think the Westminster government should be interfering in something
:08:07. > :08:14.of which we should set the both the timescale and they should stand by
:08:15. > :08:19.what the outcome is. It is the preferred option of these Scottish
:08:19. > :08:23.National Party to have a single question on the ballot paper. But
:08:23. > :08:29.we're not the only ones with an opinion. There are people in
:08:29. > :08:36.Scotland to want to give the party more devolution powers but not full
:08:36. > :08:44.independence. It is a democracy, so we have to listen to every side of
:08:44. > :08:49.the argument. All the other parties, the pro-union parties, say they
:08:49. > :08:57.will not support a referendum short of independence. They want a
:08:57. > :09:03.straight question. Does that kill this off? Let us have this debate.
:09:03. > :09:07.It is for the people of Scotland to decide. It is for the people of
:09:07. > :09:12.Scotland and the Parliament to decide if it is the single question
:09:12. > :09:15.ought to have three questions. Our preferred option is one question,
:09:15. > :09:25.but I do not think we should rule out more than that if that is what
:09:25. > :09:29.
:09:29. > :09:33.people want. Who would be proposing that option? Let us see how that
:09:33. > :09:37.transpires. The position of the UK government seems to change every
:09:37. > :09:42.other day. I think it is preposterous and the Scottish
:09:42. > :09:49.Labour Party is backing the Conservative option, rather than
:09:49. > :09:52.backing our case for more power. The people who are wanting the
:09:52. > :09:58.referendum taken now and wanting a single question are the same people
:09:58. > :10:02.who have been blocking this at every move in the last few years.
:10:02. > :10:10.We have the referendum to deliver this in the second half of the
:10:11. > :10:17.Parliament and that is what we will do. Could it be the Scottish
:10:17. > :10:25.government that you could be putting forward the proposals for
:10:25. > :10:34.both independence and other options? He is, egg could be us. It
:10:34. > :10:39.does not necessarily have to be a It doesn't necessarily need that.
:10:39. > :10:43.But the position of the other parties changing on a daily basis.
:10:43. > :10:47.One of your MPs said tonight if it didn't have backing from the other
:10:47. > :10:50.parties there wouldn't be the need of a second question. It's for the
:10:50. > :10:53.other parties to determine their view. It changes regularly at the
:10:53. > :10:57.moment. The principle here is that it's for the Scottish people to
:10:57. > :11:00.decide. I don't understand why people seem to want to foreclose
:11:00. > :11:04.the options of the Scottish people. The politicians who are arguing one
:11:04. > :11:07.way just now have spent the last four years blocking a referendum
:11:07. > :11:12.all together. The fundamental issue of principle here is that it's for
:11:12. > :11:17.the Scottish people to decide their own future. If the UK Government
:11:17. > :11:23.offers you the legal cover, perhaps saying that you can't offer the
:11:23. > :11:25.vote to under 18s, perhaps saying, that you can't hold the vote
:11:26. > :11:31.without consulting the Electoral Commission, would these be
:11:31. > :11:34.conditions you could accept? Let's see what the UK Government says.
:11:34. > :11:37.It's not for the UK Government to set the terms of the referendum.
:11:37. > :11:40.It's for the Scottish Government to implement the mandate we got at the
:11:40. > :11:45.election. Ultimately it's for the Scottish people to decide the
:11:45. > :11:49.outcome of that referendum. If you say no and they push that through,
:11:49. > :11:55.what then snfrplgts the UK's Government has changed the position
:11:55. > :11:58.in the course of today. It might not be the same tomorrow as it is
:11:58. > :12:02.this evening. The key point is that it's not for the UK Government to
:12:02. > :12:05.set the terms of this referendum. The SNP won the election,
:12:05. > :12:09.overwhelmingly. We have an overwhelming mandate to deliver
:12:09. > :12:14.that referendum and that should be allowed to happen. Nicola Sturgeon,
:12:14. > :12:17.thanks very much. I'm joined now by Ruth Davidson MSP
:12:17. > :12:21.leader of the Scottish Conservatives and by Anas Sarwar,
:12:21. > :12:25.Deputy Leader of the Scottish Labour Party. Who should hold the
:12:25. > :12:31.vote on Scotland's constitutional future - Scottish or UK Government?
:12:31. > :12:36.There has to be a referendum run in Scotland. Which Government? The SNP
:12:36. > :12:43.are all over the place on this. This morning Nicola Sturgeon saying,
:12:43. > :12:47.it has to be a yes, No vote. Then saying the opposite. One thing
:12:47. > :12:51.that's happened today is there's clarity, all four main parties in
:12:51. > :12:55.Scotland are clear, they support a main yes/no question. That could be
:12:55. > :12:59.put forward. The other option is we're open to debate in this. We're
:12:59. > :13:02.in favour of a clear, quick, decisive referendum. Held by a
:13:02. > :13:06.Scottish Government or UK Government? It's clear, the SNP
:13:06. > :13:10.have a mandate to hold this referendum. Why not let them get on
:13:10. > :13:15.with it? Let's get the people what they deserve, which is a mature,
:13:16. > :13:22.adult debate, not about dates, not about questions... If it's their
:13:22. > :13:28.mandate, let them get on with it. Give a simple question, yes or no.
:13:28. > :13:31.Let's have the adult discussion whether we are a fairer and more
:13:31. > :13:34.prosperous country as part of the UK Government or not? What would
:13:34. > :13:37.happen if the Scottish Government was allowed to get on with
:13:37. > :13:41.delivering its referendum in its time scale with the questions that
:13:41. > :13:45.it wants to ask? I think this is about delivering a referendum where
:13:45. > :13:49.the people of Scotland get to decide. That's what at the nub of
:13:49. > :13:52.this, it's not about letting the courts decide. If the legal advice
:13:52. > :13:55.the UK Government is that a referendum where the UK Government
:13:55. > :14:00.doesn't empower the Scottish Government to be able to hold a
:14:00. > :14:04.referendum, then this could be held in the courts for years to come.
:14:04. > :14:10.There could be no legal challenge given the transfer of power that
:14:10. > :14:13.the UK Government is proposing? Sorry can you clarify? If the UK
:14:13. > :14:18.Government transfers legal power to the Scottish Government in
:14:18. > :14:22.Parliament over the constitution, a referendum held by the Scottish
:14:22. > :14:26.Government wouldn't be open to legal challenge? I believe a
:14:26. > :14:28.summary of the legal advice will be published. I believe we're having
:14:28. > :14:34.clarification in the House of Commons tomorrow from Michael Moore.
:14:34. > :14:38.I believe you referenced it. We have to see what that is. The worst
:14:38. > :14:41.case scenario after all the work that's gone on to talk out
:14:41. > :14:44.positions, to get off the subject of process, which is what we're
:14:44. > :14:47.talking about now and talk about the substance of a referendum on
:14:47. > :14:50.independence and what it means. The worst thing possible is that there
:14:50. > :14:57.is a result which is held up for several years in the courts,
:14:57. > :14:59.because the process itself was a flawed process. Nicola said she's
:15:00. > :15:03.extremely relaxed about what happens today. She didn't look
:15:04. > :15:08.relaxed at all. If you look at it, we're only speculating what the
:15:08. > :15:11.offer is going to be. If the offer is given the Scottish Government
:15:11. > :15:15.the legal right to hold the referendum, if it is a straight yes
:15:15. > :15:18.or no question, which Nicola says she supports, if it is to bring in
:15:18. > :15:23.the Electoral Commission, who everyone respects as an independent
:15:23. > :15:27.ash traitor to ensure a fair and free election across Scotland, what
:15:27. > :15:31.are they scared of? They're scared of the decision of the Scottish
:15:31. > :15:38.people. What's wrong with under 18s voting for instance? We've got,
:15:38. > :15:43.look there's a debate to be had of votes at 16. I'm happy to have a
:15:43. > :15:45.debate about what the voting age should be for general elections,
:15:45. > :15:50.council elections... referendum? We should have the same
:15:50. > :15:54.franchise for all elections. Thlz a separate debate. Let's in the
:15:54. > :15:58.confuse the issue. This is about whether Scotland is a more
:15:58. > :16:00.prosperous place as part of the UK or with separation. Why not a
:16:00. > :16:04.second question on a more powerful Scottish Parliament, which opinion
:16:04. > :16:10.polls suggest more people are likely to support. At the moment we
:16:10. > :16:12.haven't seen a mandate for that to be added to the ballot paper.
:16:12. > :16:15.Nicola Sturgeon saying her preference for a yes, no question.
:16:15. > :16:20.It's the Liberal Democrats position, the Labour Party's position and the
:16:20. > :16:23.Scottish Conservatives position as well. I think you're setting hares
:16:23. > :16:27.running here which don't need to be running. There's no party backing
:16:27. > :16:32.this. Before you jump in, if I could say also, if you're talking
:16:32. > :16:36.about something like deefo Max, a term bandied around a lot, by
:16:36. > :16:40.commentators and media pundits like yourself, nobody's defined for me
:16:40. > :16:44.and not for the people of Scotland what that means. The other issue is
:16:44. > :16:47.the SNP always say we promised it would be in the second half of the
:16:47. > :16:52.Parliament. Nowhere in the manifesto does it say it will be in
:16:52. > :16:57.the second half of the Parliament. They said it a few days before the
:16:57. > :17:02.Holyrood elections. After people had voted by postal ballot. Nowhere
:17:02. > :17:06.in the manifesto is there the question of devo Max. They're
:17:06. > :17:09.playing games. Many people in your party support the idea of a much
:17:09. > :17:13.more powerful Scottish Parliament within the UK. What do you have to
:17:13. > :17:18.fear from putting that on the ballot paper? Absolutely,
:17:18. > :17:21.devolution is a completely separate debate from separation. It's about
:17:21. > :17:27.the powers of the Scottish Parliament, isn't it. That's the
:17:27. > :17:32.same thing. We are supporting the Scotland bill. Devolution is a
:17:32. > :17:36.separate concept. The separation is a completely separate argument all
:17:36. > :17:40.together. The SNP fear the voice of the Scottish people. I don't. I'm
:17:40. > :17:45.happy for the people of Scotland to make their decision about whether
:17:45. > :17:47.they think Scotland should be part of the UK or not. You two
:17:47. > :17:52.presumably will be campaigning together to keep Scotland inside
:17:52. > :17:56.the UK when the referendum is eventually held? I think you're,
:17:56. > :17:59.let's say there is no love lost because the Scottish Conservatives
:17:59. > :18:04.and the Scottish Labour Party, however on issues such as this,
:18:04. > :18:07.which I think goes beyond party politics, people from across civic
:18:07. > :18:10.Scotland, political Scotland, business Scotland come together to
:18:10. > :18:15.promote the idea of Scotland within a stronger United Kingdom. I think
:18:15. > :18:20.it will encourage people from all parties and from none. Thank you
:18:20. > :18:24.both very much. Tomorrow's front pages. The Scotsman goes on the
:18:24. > :18:28.constitution. SNP threatens to block new referendum offer. A