:00:03. > :00:10.be the biggest one of our political lives. It is important we get it
:00:10. > :00:13.Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, more on the independence referendum.
:00:13. > :00:18.The provisional date is set for autumn 2014, but will the UK
:00:18. > :00:21.government get its way on the single question and who can vote?
:00:21. > :00:25.We'll hear from the First Minister and more from the Secretary of
:00:25. > :00:29.State for Scotland. Good evening. After years of debate,
:00:29. > :00:32.we finally have a date, or a season, at least. The Scottish Government
:00:32. > :00:35.revealed they want to hold their independence referendum in the
:00:35. > :00:38.autumn of 2014. The First minister, Alex Salmond, made the announcement
:00:38. > :00:42.just as the Scottish Secretary, Michael Moore, was telling the
:00:42. > :00:46.House of Commons any such ballot would be illegal. Perhaps it was
:00:46. > :00:50.coincidence. Either way, get used to the constitutional brinkmanship.
:00:50. > :00:57.There's going to be a lot more of it over the next 30 months or so.
:00:57. > :01:01.Our own David Allison watched the power politics unfold.
:01:01. > :01:10.Today was the date at Westminster was to wrestle back control events
:01:10. > :01:13.from the SNP. UK government accepts the referendum could come pick when
:01:13. > :01:23.the referendum takes place but they wanted to make it clear it could
:01:23. > :01:32.only happen legally if they allow it. This is not about the mandates
:01:32. > :01:39.of Scotland's two governments or hoof calls the shots. It is about
:01:39. > :01:43.our ability to take part in a legal referendum. If that means
:01:43. > :01:47.Westminster has to give Scotland a powers to hold a referendum which
:01:47. > :01:51.they are otherwise cannot do legally. But as well as being
:01:51. > :01:56.illegal, a referendum must be fair and decisive. For those reasons,
:01:56. > :02:00.the roles of the referendum must be them off -- demonstrably above
:02:00. > :02:03.board. The referendum should be overseen by those who have
:02:03. > :02:10.neutrality and the proven expertise to inspire confidence in the
:02:10. > :02:13.fairness of the process, such as the Electoral Commission. Despite
:02:13. > :02:19.still licking its wounds and picking itself up after two
:02:19. > :02:29.election defeats, Labour remains Scotland's largest Unionist party.
:02:29. > :02:31.
:02:32. > :02:35.It also still has two conflicting also a mores to ride. -- horses.
:02:35. > :02:42.must not turn into Red Paddy fight between the two things Scott
:02:42. > :02:50.lumberjacks. Separation and the Tories. -- into a petty fight two
:02:50. > :02:55.things Scotland rejects. We must now move as quickly as possible on
:02:55. > :03:05.to a debate of substance that puts Scotland's people and interests
:03:05. > :03:05.
:03:05. > :03:10.first. No -- never before has the SNP been so close to in depend --
:03:10. > :03:16.establishing Scotland as an independent country. Why it is it
:03:16. > :03:19.that this Westminster government is trying to dictate terms about the
:03:19. > :03:25.referendum to the democratically elected Scottish government which
:03:25. > :03:29.has a mandate on this issue? Specifically, why is the
:03:29. > :03:33.Westminster government seeking to dictate the date of the referendum?
:03:33. > :03:36.Why is that they are seeking to dictate the questions on the ballot
:03:36. > :03:42.paper? And why is it that the Westminster government is seeking
:03:42. > :03:47.to exclude 16 and 17-year-olds from this important and historic
:03:48. > :03:52.referendum? Meanwhile, in Edinburgh at the Scottish cabinet meeting,
:03:52. > :03:58.they came up with an announcement a role for the UK Government. They
:03:58. > :04:02.had a date for the referendum. Autumn 2014. The year of the
:04:02. > :04:07.Commonwealth Games in Glasgow and not to mention, the Ryder Cup at
:04:07. > :04:11.Gleneagles. As well as the anniversary of the Battle of
:04:11. > :04:16.Bannockburn. It is the most important decision we have ever
:04:16. > :04:19.taken for 300 years. We have just passed out consultation papers and
:04:19. > :04:25.that goes out to the people of Scotland and has looked at every
:04:25. > :04:30.scenario. We know the right time for this referendum is autumn 2014.
:04:30. > :04:34.That way, we can have the preparations properly laid and
:04:34. > :04:37.everything tested and the arguments put forward so that the people can
:04:37. > :04:42.have the fullest opportunity to make this great decision for
:04:42. > :04:46.Scotland and that is the bit we are proposing for consultation with the
:04:46. > :04:49.people of Scotland. That is the right way to do things because this
:04:50. > :04:56.is an issue for the people of Scotland to be decided and debated
:04:56. > :05:01.by the people of Scotland. The date of the referendum was discovered by
:05:01. > :05:05.a question by a Labour MP. understand that he has made an
:05:05. > :05:11.announcement that there is to be a referendum in order and 2014. Would
:05:11. > :05:15.he give us reaction to that if it is true or not? The debate over
:05:15. > :05:21.timing of this referendum was one I anticipate will take place for a
:05:21. > :05:25.long time to come. Today was a battle for the initiative. Now at
:05:25. > :05:27.last, we have a date for winning the hearts and minds of voters.
:05:27. > :05:31.Earlier, I spoke to the First Minister, Alex Salmond, from his
:05:31. > :05:34.official residence in Edinburgh. I asked him why he'd decided to go
:05:34. > :05:40.for 2014, which just happens to be the year the Ryder Cup is at
:05:40. > :05:46.Gleneagles and Scotland hosts the Commonwealth Games. I think autumn
:05:46. > :05:51.2014 is the right of way to look at it. We cannot have the summer. Not
:05:52. > :05:56.because of anything to do with the Battle of Bannockburn. But we're
:05:56. > :06:00.not going to have a campaign period that gets underway of either the
:06:00. > :06:10.Commonwealth Games or the Ryder Cup, which John major events. That
:06:10. > :06:11.
:06:11. > :06:15.leaves the opening of 2014. -- which are both major events. Would
:06:15. > :06:20.you say there is no elect or mandate for his second choice on
:06:20. > :06:24.the ballot paper? We will offer people the chance for economic
:06:24. > :06:28.powers through the referendum. We have decided that while we were
:06:28. > :06:32.committed to the question on Scottish independence, that is our
:06:32. > :06:37.preference, that we were open to arguments about having a question
:06:37. > :06:40.on devo max. That remains an opposition. When you look at the
:06:40. > :06:46.discussion paper will release, you will see it is perfectly consistent
:06:46. > :06:49.with what we have said before. I know it is that our Unionist
:06:49. > :06:52.opponents, even in the Commons today, they'll be going to
:06:52. > :06:58.acknowledge their historic result of the Scottish elections and the
:06:58. > :07:02.remarkable achievement of winning an overall majority in Parliament.
:07:02. > :07:10.That indisputable mandate. Then, unfortunately, they do not do
:07:10. > :07:13.anything about it. Whether it is about putting things forward for
:07:13. > :07:17.Scotland Bill, it should be a referendum made and built in
:07:17. > :07:20.Scotland, produced by the Scottish Parliament and then decided on by
:07:20. > :07:24.the wisdom of the Scottish people. The acknowledgement of the man they
:07:24. > :07:31.should be more than words. The respect agenda should be more than
:07:31. > :07:36.words. -- the acknowledgement of the mandate. Perhaps things will
:07:36. > :07:40.improve as they begin to accept the realities of Scottish democracy.
:07:40. > :07:44.But you could tidy this up by accepting the transfer of power
:07:44. > :07:48.from Westminster to Holyrood. Because all the UK Government is
:07:48. > :07:55.trying to do is to make sure the referendum is fair and decisive?
:07:55. > :08:00.Yes. And we have a different legal interpretation. And it is not just
:08:00. > :08:07.us, it is part of constitutional law separating the powers of the
:08:07. > :08:13.Parliament. I have got no objector whatsoever to section 30 of the
:08:13. > :08:19.Scotland Act and indeed, we suggested it. -- no of objections.
:08:19. > :08:27.My objection is that from David Cameron, and to a lesser extent,
:08:27. > :08:30.Michael Moore, they would conduct a referendum by proxy. I think that
:08:30. > :08:34.given the disastrous reaction it is having on the streets and in the
:08:34. > :08:39.communities of Scotland, I think both the Conservative and Liberal
:08:39. > :08:45.parties will think twice about the wisdom of trying to gazump a
:08:45. > :08:49.highjack of the Scotland referendum. So it is three by 2016? I don't do
:08:49. > :08:53.slogans like that anymore. I am saying that the Scottish people
:08:53. > :08:58.will be asked to make a historic decision in the autumn of 2014, and
:08:58. > :09:02.that will be a period that allows all the information and arguments
:09:02. > :09:09.to be deployed, and I have faith in the wisdom and judgment of the
:09:09. > :09:15.people of Scotland. Earlier, I asked Michael Moore about whether
:09:15. > :09:19.he preferred -- accepted the preferred date of autumn 2014?
:09:19. > :09:23.think it is very important we have a referendum where everybody can
:09:23. > :09:27.participate and we have to be confident of the result it holds.
:09:27. > :09:31.What I was setting out in the Commons today was my view and that
:09:31. > :09:36.of my colleagues that as things stand, the Scottish Parliament does
:09:36. > :09:46.not have the legal power to hold a referendum. With the youth call it
:09:46. > :09:50.a visor read or legally bound in. - - whether you call it. -- advisory.
:09:50. > :09:54.I think it is right we get the legal basis sorted so I hope now to
:09:54. > :09:58.be able to work with our colleagues in the Scottish government to
:09:58. > :10:02.devolve the power to the Scottish Parliament so we can have a
:10:02. > :10:06.referendum that is properly made in Scotland, that is legal, that the
:10:06. > :10:13.rules of fair, and then when we get the outcome, it is clear cut and
:10:13. > :10:22.decisive. Then we can live with the result. I am confident that we have
:10:22. > :10:32.that referendum and then people will decide to remain part of the
:10:32. > :10:33.
:10:33. > :10:40.United Kingdom. But the data autumn There is a danger about prolonging
:10:40. > :10:44.the period before we make this decision that will affect jobs and
:10:44. > :10:49.investment plans. It is not good for anybody as we plan our future.
:10:49. > :10:55.We have got the opinion of the First Minister today. I welcome
:10:55. > :11:00.that contribution to the debate, which I hope he also accepts will
:11:00. > :11:05.involve all people in Scotland. Over the next couple of months, we
:11:05. > :11:13.will be asking people when they want to have this referendum. We
:11:13. > :11:18.need to hear the voices of people across the country. Wigan have
:11:18. > :11:21.illegal, fair and decisive referendum. It seems as if Alex
:11:21. > :11:31.Salmond needs to ask your permission before who holds a
:11:31. > :11:37.
:11:37. > :11:43.referendum? That -- the people expect everyone to work together.
:11:43. > :11:46.We have very strongly acknowledged that the SNP's victory, and their
:11:46. > :11:52.desire to have a referendum on independence. We need to make sure
:11:52. > :11:57.that by working with them, we can have a referendum that will not
:11:57. > :12:04.mean that this decision is decided in the courts rather than by people
:12:04. > :12:07.in a ballot box. I am hopeful we can work together, and the First
:12:07. > :12:12.Minister and others can see the reasonable suggestion we are making,
:12:12. > :12:17.and then we can get on with that. We need to have a debate about our
:12:17. > :12:22.future inside the most successful partnership of nations in history,
:12:22. > :12:32.or out doing their own thing. proud of the way the UK government
:12:32. > :12:35.
:12:35. > :12:41.has handled this issue? -- are you proud. People in Scotland will want
:12:41. > :12:46.to see all the politicians are working together, the two
:12:46. > :12:50.government. We need to make sure we have a properly conducted
:12:50. > :12:58.referendum campaign that people can be confident that they are fair
:12:58. > :13:04.rules, and that when we get the result, it is decisive and pledge
:13:04. > :13:13.card, and nobody can argue about what it means. -- and clear cut. We
:13:13. > :13:20.have the chance to make that to happen. And one way to see that
:13:20. > :13:23.happening is transferring powers to Holyrood. I am keen to work with
:13:23. > :13:28.the Scottish government to make sure they have that power, and also,
:13:28. > :13:33.I want people across the country to enter a debate about how that a
:13:33. > :13:38.referendum should be conducted. When you have the electoral
:13:38. > :13:42.commission, overseeing all elections across the UK, who had
:13:42. > :13:48.supervised the referendums in all parts of the UK, they have got a
:13:48. > :13:52.track record and are neutral and are beyond approach. That can give
:13:52. > :13:58.confidence to people in Scotland that we will have a fair referendum.
:13:58. > :14:02.It is entirely sensible that people consider that idea. Might view is
:14:02. > :14:07.that we are looking at getting a legal referendum that was a fair
:14:07. > :14:14.set of rules, and that will, in the end, provide an outcome we can all
:14:14. > :14:16.accept, and not end up deciding this in the courts.
:14:16. > :14:24.I'm joined now form Westminster by the Shadow Scottish Secretary,
:14:24. > :14:30.Margaret Curran. How would you react to this campaign, which is
:14:30. > :14:37.underway? We have made it clear that we think of the referendum
:14:37. > :14:42.should be sooner rather than later. The New Labour leader said she
:14:42. > :14:48.hoped that the referendum would to be in 2013. It is a coincident in
:14:48. > :14:58.but we have this announcement from Alex Salmond. That is not what SNP
:14:58. > :15:06.members were saying yesterday. But, I think the debate is on. Let us
:15:06. > :15:14.have this debate. I think this is a clear expectation. This is a
:15:14. > :15:19.momentous decision. Let us get on with it. Unlike the UK government,
:15:19. > :15:23.they do not seem clear about whether they support the timetable.
:15:23. > :15:33.Are you relaxed about it? I would much prefer us to have the
:15:33. > :15:39.referendum now. I cannot understand the reason why it's a separatist
:15:39. > :15:43.party, whose lifetime caused his separation, why they are hesitating
:15:43. > :15:49.at all about it. They say it is a solution to every challenge
:15:49. > :15:58.Scotland faces. Why do not want to delay that. What is Labour's
:15:58. > :16:01.offering going to be in this campaign? Are you going to take
:16:01. > :16:06.your traditional devolutionary point of view, which is that
:16:06. > :16:10.Holyrood it needs more powers? I tell you the authoring that
:16:10. > :16:18.Scottish Labour will bring to the debate? An argument about this
:16:18. > :16:22.future of Scotland. We have a new leader, and we have regrouped
:16:22. > :16:31.significantly. The best way to show faith to the Scottish people is up
:16:31. > :16:36.to give them the debate they expect a need. Opinion polls suggest that
:16:36. > :16:39.Scottish people would like to see these Scottish Parliament given a
:16:39. > :16:44.greater economic powers in particular. If you are consistent
:16:44. > :16:52.with what you have said, Labour would advocate of greater economic
:16:52. > :17:02.powers? No, that is not logical. There may be a case for greater
:17:02. > :17:02.
:17:02. > :17:06.powers for Scottish Power's. -- Scottish Parliament. I have to say,
:17:06. > :17:11.and I think that the vast majority of people concurred, that is a
:17:11. > :17:20.different debate about whether it Scotland separates funded UK. That
:17:20. > :17:24.is a fundamental, momentous decision, that we know. There is
:17:24. > :17:30.consensus against all main political parties in Scotland but a
:17:30. > :17:34.simple yes, no answer is the preferred answer. We need that
:17:34. > :17:37.clarity with the Scottish people. That does not prohibit any
:17:37. > :17:43.discussion we would want to have when the time is right about powers
:17:43. > :17:48.for Scotland, and how we take Scotland into the future. And there
:17:48. > :17:54.you are, standing with your allies want either side, the Liberal
:17:54. > :18:03.Democrats and the Conservatives. do not think that is their. I am
:18:03. > :18:06.not the type of person to dismiss arguments. -- that is fair. Michael
:18:06. > :18:13.Moore said there is a legal argument that needs to be dealt
:18:13. > :18:19.with here. The SNP needs to take that on. They need to publish legal
:18:19. > :18:25.advice. They need to give us evidence and their side of the
:18:25. > :18:34.argument. Michael mauled should give us the substance of the
:18:34. > :18:40.argument in bolt. -- Michael more. -- at the substance of the argument
:18:41. > :18:46.in full. I think we will hear many voices and see many figures
:18:46. > :18:53.involved, and it is time for Scotland to have a debate, made the
:18:53. > :19:03.decision, and Scottish Labour will play a big part of that.
:19:03. > :19:12.