0:00:08 > 0:00:11The first minister there with Jeremy Paxman. Tonight, a little
0:00:11 > 0:00:17more on Mr Salmond's visit to London and how his missionary work
0:00:17 > 0:00:20there has been going. Also tonight a chink of light in the misty white
0:00:20 > 0:00:24people in West Scotland live shorter and less healthy life than
0:00:24 > 0:00:29their counterparts anywhere else. We will hear from the epi
0:00:29 > 0:00:32geneticist who has been researching the Glasgow effect.
0:00:32 > 0:00:36We have heard Alex Salmond interviewed by Jeremy Paxman but
0:00:36 > 0:00:39that was not the reason for his visit to London to date on the eve
0:00:39 > 0:00:42of the launch of his referendum consultation, the first minister
0:00:42 > 0:00:47had been invited by the trust which runs the Guardian newspaper to
0:00:47 > 0:00:52deliver a lecture to an invited audience. His chosen topic, how
0:00:52 > 0:00:58much Scotties independence could benefit England. The views of
0:00:58 > 0:01:02people here have understandably not played much of a part so far in the
0:01:02 > 0:01:06debate of Scotland's future and and I reminded of the reference to the
0:01:06 > 0:01:13people of England to never have spoken yet. The people of Scotland
0:01:13 > 0:01:18have not spoken yet, or at least not conclusively. England does not
0:01:18 > 0:01:23nor cannot have a veto in the debate on independence. But I
0:01:23 > 0:01:28suspect, I know that the vast bulk of England freely recognise
0:01:28 > 0:01:30Scotland's right to determine its own future. This leads research
0:01:30 > 0:01:35from the Institute for Public Policy certainly suggests that
0:01:35 > 0:01:38people in England are waking up to the on sustainability of current
0:01:38 > 0:01:43constitutional arrangements. They are not sustainable because they
0:01:43 > 0:01:48are not fair. They are not fair to Scotland and they are not fair to
0:01:48 > 0:01:51say England. Most importantly, I believe these relationships will be
0:01:51 > 0:01:58positive and much stronger when our nations are clear and equal
0:01:58 > 0:02:03partners. I believe that at our best, an independent Scotland could
0:02:03 > 0:02:07be a beacon for progressive opinion south of the border and further
0:02:07 > 0:02:13afield. Addressing policy challenges in ways that reflect the
0:02:13 > 0:02:17universal values of fairness, of capable of considered adapted and
0:02:17 > 0:02:23implemented according to circumstances and wishes with in
0:02:23 > 0:02:28other jurisdictions of the silence. I am joined by the political
0:02:28 > 0:02:37commentator Gerry Hassan and the London editor of the Irish Times
0:02:37 > 0:02:43Mark Hennessy. Thank you for coming in. Mark, how is the foreign press
0:02:43 > 0:02:46during all of this? It is birdied days and there is an increasing
0:02:46 > 0:02:51amount of interest in what is happening in Scotland. Most people
0:02:51 > 0:02:57watching that interview with Jeremy Paxman, I am sure Alex Salmond
0:02:57 > 0:03:01would be very glad if he was to get more interviews like that by
0:03:01 > 0:03:05English presenters. It is certainly the picture of the patronising
0:03:05 > 0:03:09Englishman and that would feed into the debate both in Scotland and the
0:03:09 > 0:03:12attitudes that will be perhaps taken a broad when people are
0:03:13 > 0:03:19looking at this from an outside audience. Certainly in the Irish
0:03:19 > 0:03:23context, there was interest. We are not at a point where there is a
0:03:23 > 0:03:27deep knowledge of what is going to take place in Scotland but it will
0:03:27 > 0:03:30have interesting implications, and certainly if Scotland was to become
0:03:30 > 0:03:36independent it would have significant impact on Northern
0:03:36 > 0:03:42Ireland. And the Unionist community there which is not traditionally
0:03:42 > 0:03:46the most self-confident of groups and certainly were Scotland to
0:03:46 > 0:03:54leave the union, that would have a deep and profound impact on
0:03:54 > 0:03:59politics on the island of Ireland. We do not have time to go into this
0:03:59 > 0:04:04but this is something we can talk about later. Jerry, when you look
0:04:04 > 0:04:11at what is happening in London, the first minister says there will be a
0:04:11 > 0:04:18series of speeches, what is that about? He is trying to normalise
0:04:18 > 0:04:24the strategy of the SNP and the idea of independence, trying to
0:04:24 > 0:04:30make this as something that happens to normal countries. He is trying
0:04:31 > 0:04:40to address the sceptical Guardian liberal English voice, but they
0:04:40 > 0:04:43raise also an audience that regards Sam and in a fantasy land. What
0:04:43 > 0:04:49they could have been and he wants to try and build a bridge with that,
0:04:49 > 0:04:55some common ground. Understand what we are about and that this is a
0:04:55 > 0:05:00normal journey. Do you think Scottish people want to see him as
0:05:00 > 0:05:10a statesman out there? How important will be tone be in what
0:05:10 > 0:05:17he said, giving a positive message? Mood matters there and the SNP
0:05:17 > 0:05:22government strategy of how Scotland has appeared has been part of that.
0:05:22 > 0:05:32The positive tones matter and what the SNP are saying is they believe
0:05:32 > 0:05:35the Unionists are going to go on fear, negativity, and he is trying
0:05:35 > 0:05:41to take the moral high ground because he thinks he can win more
0:05:41 > 0:05:46with that. Mark, is it inevitable that there is a different debate in
0:05:46 > 0:05:50Scotland, there is a different level of accepted knowledge and
0:05:50 > 0:05:54that we are having different conversations in Scotland as to
0:05:54 > 0:05:57where we are compared with England and Ireland? Is that an inevitable
0:05:57 > 0:06:02consequence that we have been living with this for so long and
0:06:02 > 0:06:07what effect could that have? will have to wait and see how the
0:06:07 > 0:06:12debate frames up over the next couple of years. In some ways since
0:06:12 > 0:06:15devolution has occurred here, Scotland has been playing itself
0:06:15 > 0:06:21government. It does not fully raised all the money it spans and
0:06:21 > 0:06:24that allows Scottish ministers a certain freedom that it would not
0:06:24 > 0:06:29enjoy and it would not enjoy a after independence when it would
0:06:29 > 0:06:35have to raise every penny that it will spend. The debate will become
0:06:35 > 0:06:42more focused as time goes on. The constitutional expert in London
0:06:42 > 0:06:46made an interesting point when he said that the Irish and the Indians
0:06:46 > 0:06:51first of all decided they did not wish to be part of the British
0:06:51 > 0:06:55Empire. They did not ask themselves whether they would be better off.
0:06:55 > 0:06:57When you listen to the debate, it is striking how much of it is
0:06:57 > 0:07:02centred on the economic question and whether Scotland would be
0:07:02 > 0:07:08better off or not. If that debate is still the same as people are
0:07:09 > 0:07:13going to the polls at the end of 2014, the assumption as of now
0:07:13 > 0:07:20would be that Scots would not necessarily vote for independence.
0:07:20 > 0:07:24Quite what will happen on the third question of a ballot paper would be
0:07:24 > 0:07:28interesting. We were quite fascinated over the past couple of
0:07:28 > 0:07:33weeks with the issue of the legal basis on which a referendum would
0:07:33 > 0:07:39be held because if we were in this position and we have more
0:07:39 > 0:07:45experience of referendums than Scotland, we would have tied
0:07:45 > 0:07:48ourselves up in knots for a week at two weather the government had a
0:07:48 > 0:07:54right to put this question to the people or not. Looking at it from
0:07:54 > 0:07:59the outside, it would appear that the Scottish government is going to
0:07:59 > 0:08:05end up at the end of the day doing a deal with Westminster on section
0:08:05 > 0:08:1030 and it will be a referendum that will be held legally after a vote
0:08:10 > 0:08:14and legislation passes through the House of Commons. Can we look
0:08:14 > 0:08:17forward to tomorrow? What do you think has to happen tomorrow in
0:08:17 > 0:08:22terms of what the first minister will want to achieve with this
0:08:22 > 0:08:27launch? It is all about the question and that is what matters
0:08:27 > 0:08:32here and whether we have a yes or no question that stands legal tests.
0:08:32 > 0:08:37I think that will happen. One of the issues is how the UK government
0:08:37 > 0:08:47has overplayed its hand. There has to be an agreement with UK
0:08:47 > 0:08:51
0:08:51 > 0:08:53It is not news that Glasgow has a dismal health record. But precisely
0:08:53 > 0:08:56why has so far eluded explanation. Now freshly published research
0:08:56 > 0:08:59suggests the answer could lie in our genes. A study by scientists at
0:08:59 > 0:09:02Glasgow University looked at the DNA of people in the city's most
0:09:02 > 0:09:05deprived and most affluent areas. They found people from the poorest
0:09:05 > 0:09:08parts had DNA which made them more likely to develop diabetes and
0:09:08 > 0:09:18cardiovascular problems. I will be asking why in a moment. First, here
0:09:18 > 0:09:24
0:09:24 > 0:09:31They call it the Glasgow effect and they have been worrying about it
0:09:31 > 0:09:39for years. This phenomenon has risen over the last two decade.
0:09:39 > 0:09:46Something has happened to Glasgow. It is like for like more
0:09:46 > 0:09:54problematic in health terms then encountered hurt neighbourhoods in
0:09:54 > 0:10:04Manchester and Liverpool. -- than in a counterpart neighbourhoods.
0:10:04 > 0:10:11Life expensive Kinsey was 80 years old for women just decades ago. --
0:10:11 > 0:10:20life expectancy. Now there are outliers. In Glasgow, men can live
0:10:20 > 0:10:26to 71 now, and women, 78. In Chelsea, women will live nine years
0:10:26 > 0:10:35longer on average than in Glasgow. So what is wrong? There is a
0:10:35 > 0:10:45combination of drink, fax and stress. And Glasgow's numbers are
0:10:45 > 0:10:47
0:10:47 > 0:10:52worse than anywhere. There is the possibility of a damage done to a
0:10:52 > 0:10:57child's DNA while it is still in the womb. It is a small but
0:10:57 > 0:11:01potentially significant clue to the Glasgow effect.
0:11:01 > 0:11:03A short while ago I asked the leader of the new research, Glasgow
0:11:03 > 0:11:13University's Dr Paul Shiels, to explain what epigenetics actually
0:11:13 > 0:11:13
0:11:13 > 0:11:19means. It can be best described as DNA
0:11:19 > 0:11:25that tells a jeans when to work and at what level to work at. They are
0:11:25 > 0:11:30akin to a computer. If you think of your chromosomes like the operating
0:11:30 > 0:11:36system of a computer, then it is like that. A what have you worked
0:11:36 > 0:11:42out here? What we have shown is that a comparison between the most
0:11:42 > 0:11:49and least deprived areas shows that the most deprived has less than
0:11:49 > 0:11:56Chaga have up less of this type of crimson in their DNA. -- have less
0:11:56 > 0:12:03of this type of chromosome in their DNA. Generally, things are very
0:12:03 > 0:12:10prevalent in Glasgow, cancer and diabetes. Are we seeing that there
0:12:10 > 0:12:15is a predisposition towards these, a genetic disposition? Or is it
0:12:15 > 0:12:25actually a stage further down the line from that? This is not a
0:12:25 > 0:12:25
0:12:26 > 0:12:31genetic predisposition. These genetics can be modified in
0:12:31 > 0:12:36development through life just by diet and lifestyle factors such as
0:12:36 > 0:12:41smoking. These can cause the machinery to put these in place not
0:12:41 > 0:12:45to work as well as they should. why would it be the case that his
0:12:45 > 0:12:50is a particular problem in Glasgow and not other areas that you would
0:12:50 > 0:12:56expect women to have the same problems's I would expect to see
0:12:56 > 0:13:00the same thing to -- problems? would expect to see the same thing
0:13:00 > 0:13:04in many areas in Britain. This gives us a little handle on
0:13:04 > 0:13:11starting to explain why Glasgow is worse than anywhere else. We have
0:13:11 > 0:13:18here, given an explanation biologically, for the consequences
0:13:18 > 0:13:21in Glasgow, and we can start looking at the pathway is involved
0:13:21 > 0:13:28and the association between deprivation and ill health which is
0:13:28 > 0:13:32prevalent in the city. I know it is early stages, but what sort of
0:13:32 > 0:13:36interventions might be appropriate from what you have learned are
0:13:36 > 0:13:43ready? The simplest thing is focusing on -- would you have
0:13:43 > 0:13:48learned? The simplest thing is focusing on poverty and diets and
0:13:48 > 0:13:52making lives easier. Suitable environment in need to be provided
0:13:52 > 0:13:56to nurture children, especially in their early years. Is this
0:13:56 > 0:14:02something that you think that, for whatever reason, we have not
0:14:02 > 0:14:08focused on the enough in the past? We have been focusing on it but it
0:14:08 > 0:14:11is getting fed properly -- properly applied and getting suitable
0:14:11 > 0:14:16information that will allow the proper interventions that will
0:14:16 > 0:14:21affect the biology and the psychology and that will tie them
0:14:21 > 0:14:27into the socio-economic factors that need to be addressed. This is
0:14:27 > 0:14:30a problem that has no magic ball to solve it. It requires
0:14:30 > 0:14:35collaborations between many different types of scientists and
0:14:35 > 0:14:43doctors. This is something we did not know before. This is a sequence
0:14:43 > 0:14:48and a consequence. Absolutely. We have seen previously in Glasgow, as
0:14:48 > 0:14:58part of a multi- disciplinary study, ill health is more prevalent than
0:14:58 > 0:14:59
0:14:59 > 0:15:07are most -- in our most deprived communities. Those in the least
0:15:07 > 0:15:14deprived communities have fewer hours on the clock. Those in work
0:15:14 > 0:15:18affluent communities have a more. This potential issue is a double
0:15:18 > 0:15:22whammy. There are other influences that operate before you were born
0:15:22 > 0:15:28that can add to it. Thank you very much.
0:15:28 > 0:15:36Now a quick look at tomorrow's front pages. The Scottish Daily
0:15:36 > 0:15:40Mail is leading what 1,000 days to save the Union. The Herald is
0:15:40 > 0:15:45leading what a story that pupils have been told they must study
0:15:45 > 0:15:50Scottish literature and they are saying that at least one text will
0:15:50 > 0:15:56be compulsory in Higher English. The Independent is saying that
0:15:56 > 0:16:03Britain is facing a broom in dishonesty. There seems to be a
0:16:03 > 0:16:11decline in private integrity. And the Daily Telegraph has a story
0:16:11 > 0:16:14about Mervyn King, the Bank of England. -- the mayor of the Bank
0:16:14 > 0:16:17of England. That is all from me tonight. There
0:16:17 > 0:16:19is no Newsnight Scotland on BBC 2 tomorrow night, instead there is
0:16:19 > 0:16:23the Special Big Debate programme: Choosing Scotland's Future, on BBC
0:16:23 > 0:16:331 at 10:35pm. And you may wish to have a look at a new BBC website.
0:16:33 > 0:16:33
0:16:33 > 0:17:16Apology for the loss of subtitles for 42 seconds
0:17:16 > 0:17:23That is all from me for tonight. The winds in western Scotland look
0:17:23 > 0:17:28very gusty indeed. They could possibly reach 60 mph. Easter's
0:17:28 > 0:17:32Cullen will stay dry. When the weather swings through and there
0:17:32 > 0:17:37will be a showers that will turn increasingly wintry and could bring
0:17:37 > 0:17:42some snow in Northern Ireland on Thursday morning. The showers on
0:17:42 > 0:17:46Thursday could bring some hail. There will be some bright or sunny
0:17:46 > 0:17:50spells on Thursday. There could be some rain across East Anglia and