0:00:05 > 0:00:08
0:00:08 > 0:00:11Thank you all very much. On Newsnight Scotland, Labour UK
0:00:11 > 0:00:15leader told a Scottish audience that justice and equality will be
0:00:15 > 0:00:19delivered more easily if there is a No vote in the referendum. For
0:00:19 > 0:00:24Civic Scotland, it isn't so clear cut.
0:00:24 > 0:00:27All so tonight, we report from little Scotland. Corby is to 75
0:00:27 > 0:00:31miles from London, but the Caledonian heart still beats
0:00:31 > 0:00:35strongly. Good evening. Ed Miliband's message
0:00:35 > 0:00:38to his last audience today with no doubt have sounded familiar to many
0:00:39 > 0:00:43of his predecessors as Labour leader. His argument was that the
0:00:43 > 0:00:47goal of creating a more fair and just society could be more easily
0:00:47 > 0:00:50achieved with the United Kingdom remaining intact. He also said that
0:00:50 > 0:00:56it was the people of Scotland should decide the rules and timing
0:00:56 > 0:00:59of the referendum, not Alex Salmond. Meanwhile, on the other side of the
0:00:59 > 0:01:06country, Civic Scotland was having a go at defining its own space in
0:01:06 > 0:01:11the political debate. Ed Miliband said he came to Scotland with
0:01:11 > 0:01:15humility after a Labour's defeat in the Scottish elections. He claimed
0:01:15 > 0:01:20the debate over independence was distracting from the fight for
0:01:20 > 0:01:25social justice and equality, a task he believes can best be sustained
0:01:25 > 0:01:31if the UK sticks together. I am not here to tell scops that Scotland
0:01:31 > 0:01:36cannot survive and side the United Kingdom. I am here with the same
0:01:36 > 0:01:44call of Labour leaders down the ages. This is for a fairer, more
0:01:44 > 0:01:48just, more equal United Kingdom. We can do that best together.
0:01:48 > 0:01:52SNP's response was to repeat its claim that an independent Scotland
0:01:52 > 0:01:57would be a beacon for progressive thought. But Mr Miliband warned
0:01:57 > 0:02:01that the stakes are high and that the whole of the UK would have to
0:02:01 > 0:02:04live with the consequences. Some people, including the First
0:02:04 > 0:02:07Minister, will tell you this is a battle between him and the Prime
0:02:08 > 0:02:16Minister. Between the government of Scotland and the government of the
0:02:16 > 0:02:21United Kingdom. Let me say clearly, it is right that the people of
0:02:21 > 0:02:26Scotland decide the rules and timing of this referendum.
0:02:26 > 0:02:29Miliband, repeated his desire to see a straight yes no question on
0:02:29 > 0:02:32independence, rather than introducing a third option giving
0:02:33 > 0:02:36more powers to the Scottish Parliament within the UK. I think
0:02:36 > 0:02:40what we will not do is confuse the question of devolution with the
0:02:40 > 0:02:44question of separatism. These are two separate issues and a ever much
0:02:45 > 0:02:47the First Minister tries to blur them, they are separate.
0:02:47 > 0:02:50Coalition led other voluntary organisations, business, religious
0:02:50 > 0:02:54groups and trade unions believe the other option should be considered.
0:02:54 > 0:02:59They launched their campaign this morning, for the debate to be
0:02:59 > 0:03:03widened, both in terms of what is discussed and who dos be discussing.
0:03:03 > 0:03:06We think the most important thing is for Civic Scotland to have a
0:03:06 > 0:03:11voice and move away from these very highly politicised debate, which
0:03:11 > 0:03:16are focused around process and referendums and questions on a
0:03:16 > 0:03:20ballot paper. The whole debate, as reflected in the media, has been
0:03:20 > 0:03:24disappointing. It has been about process, not madder than purpose
0:03:24 > 0:03:29and we are hoping that we can get into a more mature discussion,
0:03:29 > 0:03:35which does not have a yes no proposition. This coalition isn't
0:03:35 > 0:03:39backing any particular outcome in a referendum, leading some wondering
0:03:39 > 0:03:42how its success will be measured. I am joined now from London by the
0:03:42 > 0:03:45deputy leader of Scottish Labour, Anas Sarwar and here in Glasgow by
0:03:45 > 0:03:48John Downie of the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations, which
0:03:48 > 0:03:54helped organise that Civic Scotland news conference she saw in the film
0:03:54 > 0:03:58and. John Downie, let us try and establish just what you new
0:03:59 > 0:04:04grouping is about. Does this future of Scotland Campaign believe that
0:04:05 > 0:04:10Holyrood should have more powers? What it believes is that we are not
0:04:10 > 0:04:14here to campaign for independence and the status quo, what we are
0:04:14 > 0:04:19campaigning about is a real debate about the future of Scotland. Ed
0:04:19 > 0:04:23Miliband was talking about the Scottish people and the legality of
0:04:23 > 0:04:26the referendum. What the Scottish people want to talk about is that
0:04:26 > 0:04:30the Scotland they would like to see in the future, how we deal with
0:04:30 > 0:04:34poverty and unemployment and how we deal with social justice and create
0:04:34 > 0:04:38a Scottish welfare system. As a starting point, to believe that the
0:04:38 > 0:04:43kind of future that she would like to see for Scotland it requires
0:04:43 > 0:04:49further devolution of power? Some are members of the Coalition
0:04:49 > 0:04:53actually do believe that, before macro have put a proposal forward.
0:04:53 > 0:04:57The Church of Scotland who are a key member alongside the TUC are
0:04:57 > 0:05:00very clear that they are consulting their members. They will not take
0:05:00 > 0:05:06up position, but they will make sure that their members are engaged
0:05:06 > 0:05:11in a debate and are in form to make a choice. Does that mean that you
0:05:11 > 0:05:16are divided? Week are not divided. We agree that the politicians are
0:05:16 > 0:05:20trying to narrow the debate. They have made up their minds that it is
0:05:20 > 0:05:25a yes no question. Civic Scotland and that includes the trade unions
0:05:25 > 0:05:32and churches, business and think tanks across the piece, including
0:05:32 > 0:05:36the Scottish Youth Parliament, want to see a wider debate. There is
0:05:36 > 0:05:41plenty of room for debate, including on this programme, but
0:05:41 > 0:05:44what is the outcome but you are seeking. Are you trying to come up
0:05:44 > 0:05:52with a middle way between what we have now and the possibility of
0:05:52 > 0:05:55independence? There is a lot of top of clarity. There isn't going to
0:05:55 > 0:05:59beat that. People with in the grouping are interested in the
0:05:59 > 0:06:03debate and the outcome will be that people will propose this is how
0:06:03 > 0:06:09perhaps up we should run of the Scottish welfare system and this is
0:06:09 > 0:06:14how we should run the Scottish economy. As Scottish system or part
0:06:14 > 0:06:17of the UK system? Members at the moment have done a lot of work over
0:06:17 > 0:06:23the last six months on the Welfare Reform Bill which is a Bill
0:06:23 > 0:06:27designed for England, totally at odds with the Scottish legislation,
0:06:27 > 0:06:30we have a welfare system that is going to adversely affect thousands
0:06:30 > 0:06:33of people in Scotland. What they are thinking about is how we can do
0:06:33 > 0:06:38it better and manage it better in the future to help people and make
0:06:38 > 0:06:43more of a difference to people's lives. By devolving that to
0:06:43 > 0:06:49Holyrood? Some people do believe that. Is that the middle way that
0:06:49 > 0:06:52the Labour Party should be pursuing? I welcome his comments.
0:06:52 > 0:06:56What you see clearly he is the genuine discussion to be had in
0:06:56 > 0:06:59Scotland about what powers need to be where in the best interest of
0:06:59 > 0:07:04the Scottish people. I am saying that I am not tied to any
0:07:04 > 0:07:07particular powers been at Westminster are Holyrood. I will
0:07:07 > 0:07:14not prevent any Paris coming anywhere for the best interest of
0:07:14 > 0:07:20the Scottish people. What should the right package be? Devolution is
0:07:20 > 0:07:24a separate concept and we are open to having these conversations. We
0:07:24 > 0:07:29would be delighted to be part of that conversation. We are having a
0:07:29 > 0:07:33conversation internally, but it is separate from separation. But we
0:07:33 > 0:07:37think there should be a straight yes no question. There should have
0:07:37 > 0:07:41a parallel conversation on what the devolution will look like in the
0:07:41 > 0:07:44best interest of Scotland. When you say at parallel conversation, you
0:07:44 > 0:07:49seem to be saying that you cannot have that until the independence
0:07:49 > 0:07:54referendum is behind us on the assumption that people vote in No?
0:07:54 > 0:07:58We are not saying that. We are saying do not confuse the issue. It
0:07:58 > 0:08:03should be a straight yes no question and all four parties in
0:08:03 > 0:08:06Scotland are saying that as their preference. At the same time, it is
0:08:06 > 0:08:10clear that politics is changing in Scotland and the civic society
0:08:10 > 0:08:15wants that adult debate about what powers need to be there in the best
0:08:15 > 0:08:19interests of Scotland. The interesting thing about that is
0:08:19 > 0:08:29that it is a rejection of the SNP, rather than devolution. Devolution
0:08:29 > 0:08:31
0:08:31 > 0:08:36We have no problem in having a conversation about the best
0:08:36 > 0:08:45interests of Scotland. We are part of those conversations. We believe
0:08:45 > 0:08:54in devolution. Our founder it stood on a manifesto of devolution for
0:08:54 > 0:08:59Scotland. We deliver a Scottish Parliament. We are open to
0:08:59 > 0:09:06devolution, but we are saying that we should have a straight yes no
0:09:06 > 0:09:11question on independence. So a parallel conversation. What is to
0:09:11 > 0:09:17say that an independent Scotland could not be more equal and
0:09:17 > 0:09:22progressive in the way that you would want? We are saying that in
0:09:22 > 0:09:27terms of the big challenges we face, we are genuinely stronger taking on
0:09:27 > 0:09:37those challenges as part of the United Kingdom. Doesn't it depend
0:09:37 > 0:09:37
0:09:37 > 0:09:47on he was governing? Let's take the big issue of the last few days
0:09:47 > 0:09:48
0:09:48 > 0:09:58which is the banker's -- bankers' bonuses. If we have a lighter touch
0:09:58 > 0:10:00
0:10:00 > 0:10:04of regulation in Scotland, banks will move North. Alex Salmond says
0:10:04 > 0:10:08that an independent Scotland could be a beacon for progressive opinion.
0:10:08 > 0:10:16Why is he wrong about that G he talks about being progressive, but
0:10:16 > 0:10:20I think he needs to look at the definition of the word. He says he
0:10:20 > 0:10:23wants to keep stronger welfare in Scotland but also wants to could
0:10:23 > 0:10:27business rate and corporation tax. I do not think that giving a tax
0:10:28 > 0:10:35code to the biggest businesses in the country is credible at the same
0:10:35 > 0:10:38time as we see a massive cuts to public services. Communities are
0:10:38 > 0:10:48being hammered up and down the country, but he is proposing a
0:10:48 > 0:10:51
0:10:51 > 0:10:55council tax freeze. We are out of time. Thank you very much.
0:10:55 > 0:10:59You may recall our reporter Ian Hamilton has been on tour in
0:10:59 > 0:11:03England to find out what different communities make of the prospect of
0:11:03 > 0:11:08a referendum on Scottish independence. He was in Cornwall
0:11:08 > 0:11:11last week. Tonight he reports from the town of Corby in
0:11:11 > 0:11:15Northamptonshire. It is known as Little Scotland because of the
0:11:15 > 0:11:20Scots who settled there in the middle of the last century to work
0:11:20 > 0:11:30in the steel industry. The steelworks closed in 1979. The
0:11:30 > 0:11:41
0:11:41 > 0:11:45Scots and their descendants are Corby lies at the heart of Middle
0:11:45 > 0:11:51England. Half-a-century ago, thousands of Scots moved here to
0:11:52 > 0:11:55work in the steel industry. Corby became known as Little Scotland. In
0:11:55 > 0:12:00the 1980s, Corby went to a tough time when the steelworks closed,
0:12:00 > 0:12:08but since then, things have improved. The Scottish influence is
0:12:08 > 0:12:13still here. It has been a while since the steelworks closed, but we
0:12:13 > 0:12:19have a Grampian club and we have the biggest Rangers club outside of
0:12:19 > 0:12:29Glasgow. The Scottish influence will continue. We have seen so many
0:12:29 > 0:12:30
0:12:30 > 0:12:33Burns Nights been run recently. -- being run recently. I am keen to
0:12:33 > 0:12:38find out what some of the Corby Scots think about the forthcoming
0:12:39 > 0:12:45referendum in Scotland. I have come here to the Church of Scotland to
0:12:45 > 0:12:53hear from the congregation. I do not think it should break away.
0:12:53 > 0:12:58Cornwall want to break away, Wales probably wants to break away. The
0:12:58 > 0:13:02whole world knows Great Britain. It is a tiny country punching far
0:13:02 > 0:13:08above its weight and I think the more you fragmented, it will lose
0:13:08 > 0:13:12power. I think we should stay as a United Kingdom. I think we would be
0:13:12 > 0:13:20stronger as a United Kingdom. I do not see how the split would benefit
0:13:20 > 0:13:28anybody. The SNP had a massive victory last year. That is more to
0:13:28 > 0:13:34the -- to do with the Government in England. Do you think it was more
0:13:34 > 0:13:39an anti-Tory vote then a pro- independence vote? Yes, I think so.
0:13:39 > 0:13:44I have never lived there, although I feel as Scottish as everyone else.
0:13:45 > 0:13:48I have got no right to say what they should do. What worries me is
0:13:48 > 0:13:55that the politicians will treat it as a propaganda exercise and not
0:13:55 > 0:13:59give the Scottish people the facts. I have moved across the town from
0:13:59 > 0:14:06the church to one of Corby's many social clubs. It has a heavy Scots
0:14:06 > 0:14:11influence. Like the churchgoers, these regulars think that
0:14:11 > 0:14:16independence is a non-starter. big thing around here is whether we
0:14:16 > 0:14:25would be allowed the vote on that. Personally, I do not believe that
0:14:25 > 0:14:30we should. We make our living in England and we really do not
0:14:30 > 0:14:35deserve the vote down here. United we stand, divided we fall. We're
0:14:35 > 0:14:40going to be in a Union, one way or another, whether that is the
0:14:40 > 0:14:45British Union or the European Union. If Scotland becomes independent, we
0:14:45 > 0:14:54are heading towards the European Union. I think we are stronger
0:14:54 > 0:14:59within the UK. I agree. If Scotland became independent, the outstanding
0:14:59 > 0:15:09debt that the United Kingdom has, that has to be divided. We are not
0:15:09 > 0:15:09
0:15:09 > 0:15:14going to get away with saying we are our own country without any
0:15:14 > 0:15:24debt. We need to take on part of the UK debt, and Scotland cannot
0:15:24 > 0:15:35
0:15:35 > 0:15:43Scotland has changed dramatically over the last 50 years and I wonder
0:15:43 > 0:15:49if these children rammers, and Howard was and not how it is. Could
0:15:49 > 0:15:53that be colouring their view? think it is wrong. I think Scotland
0:15:53 > 0:15:58should stay as it is and has not changed. If they take it away from
0:15:58 > 0:16:04the UK, they are going to lose out on a lot of revenue. I think that
0:16:04 > 0:16:09Mr Salmond is going against the British government to see what
0:16:09 > 0:16:13extra power he can get. I do not think they want to go on their own
0:16:13 > 0:16:21because I do not think they can manage anyway. I think he is trying
0:16:21 > 0:16:28to get a lot of power from Cameron. A It depends how far they take it.
0:16:28 > 0:16:36As a Scotsman, I want independence from England, definitely. But as
0:16:36 > 0:16:41long as we can sustain it, in terms of money, yes, definitely, it is a
0:16:41 > 0:16:46good thing. The court the Scots have clearly got no regrets about
0:16:46 > 0:16:51moving here. They found jobs and brought up children and
0:16:51 > 0:16:54grandchildren. Everyone I spoke to in Corby with few exceptions
0:16:54 > 0:16:59believe in the Union between England and Scotland and do not
0:16:59 > 0:17:08want to see any kind of split. Clearly, the opinion North of the