0:00:08 > 0:00:12targeting those people on work fair Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, the
0:00:12 > 0:00:17Prime Minister came north to neat First Minister, shook hands and
0:00:17 > 0:00:22agreed to disagree. Mr Cameron said Scotland could vote no and be given
0:00:22 > 0:00:25more powers. Alex Salmond says such an offer needs more detail and
0:00:26 > 0:00:28sounds suspiciously like something that has been heard of before.
0:00:28 > 0:00:32Good evening, so the basis of the referendum battle is clearer,
0:00:32 > 0:00:36should there be one or two questions on the ballot paper? The
0:00:36 > 0:00:39Prime Minister came with a deal to offer. He said he'd consider giving
0:00:39 > 0:00:43Holyrood more powers but only after the issue was settled. The Scottish
0:00:43 > 0:00:46Government say they have heard this sort of promise before and would
0:00:46 > 0:00:54like to see more detail before they trust it again. We have been
0:00:54 > 0:00:59looking at the day the Prime Minister came to town.
0:00:59 > 0:01:04If you're going to start a fight, you need a power breakfast. Yes,
0:01:04 > 0:01:09the Prime Minister began his tour north of the border in a porridge
0:01:09 > 0:01:14factory. While resisting swapping his spoon for a sparkle, he thought
0:01:14 > 0:01:18he'd stir up a new row all of his own. The Scottish weather means his
0:01:18 > 0:01:21televised speech was a little broken up, but the message was
0:01:21 > 0:01:27clear... I believe in devolution, not because I see it as a mechanism
0:01:27 > 0:01:31for obtaining power - hardly the case for my party in Scotland, but
0:01:31 > 0:01:34because I believe in giving people choice and a real say over their
0:01:34 > 0:01:38own affairs. I passionately believe that local is best and the
0:01:38 > 0:01:45decentralisation of power is one of the core aims of the coalition
0:01:45 > 0:01:48Government that I lead. And let me say something else about
0:01:48 > 0:01:53devolution. This doesn't have to be the end of the road. When the
0:01:53 > 0:01:56referendum on independence is over, I am open to looking at how the
0:01:56 > 0:02:00devolved settlement can be improved further, and yes, that does mean
0:02:00 > 0:02:05considering what further powers could be devolved. But that must be
0:02:05 > 0:02:08a question for after the referendum when Scotland has made its choice
0:02:08 > 0:02:15about the fundamental question of independence or - or the United
0:02:15 > 0:02:19Kingdom. The Scottish people have heard this
0:02:19 > 0:02:25before - back during the 1979 referendum, the country was offered
0:02:25 > 0:02:29something better if they said no to independence. But a no vote does
0:02:29 > 0:02:38not and need not imply any disloyalty to the principle of
0:02:38 > 0:02:44devolution. A fact not lost on the First Minister as he headed in to
0:02:44 > 0:02:48today's talks. We have heard that before in Scottish politics.
0:02:48 > 0:02:51Douglas Hume said they could vote no in '79 to devolution and would
0:02:51 > 0:02:53get a much better form of devolution from the Tories. What
0:02:54 > 0:02:58happened to Scotland was 17 years of Conservative Government from
0:02:58 > 0:03:01London. We got fooled once on that prospectus. If the if the Prime
0:03:01 > 0:03:08Minister has an offer to make to the people of Scotland, then he
0:03:08 > 0:03:11should make it now. Finally, the two shook hands for
0:03:11 > 0:03:17the cameras. Everyone took their seats, although David Cameron might
0:03:17 > 0:03:24not have liked his view of Scotland's elect oral -- electoral
0:03:24 > 0:03:28map - a clever piece of positioning, but then this turned out to be a
0:03:28 > 0:03:32day of shadowboxing, not of political consensus. I am afraid
0:03:32 > 0:03:36there wasn't much progress. I think we have moved on subtially for two
0:03:36 > 0:03:40reasons. I believe we need to put a straight-forward, simple, fair
0:03:40 > 0:03:42legal question to the Scottish people in good time, which is to
0:03:42 > 0:03:46ask the straight forward question, do you want to stay in the United
0:03:46 > 0:03:50Kingdom, and I hope that's what people will vote for, or do you
0:03:50 > 0:03:54want to leave the United Kingdom? think it's now pretty clear that -
0:03:54 > 0:03:57what the nub of contention is, and the Prime Minister may think it's
0:03:57 > 0:04:00frustrating, but nonetheless it's something very important to the
0:04:00 > 0:04:04people of Scotland, and that is whether there should be one or two
0:04:04 > 0:04:07questions on a ballot paper and who should decide that? My position -
0:04:07 > 0:04:11Mr Cameron's position - should be one question - my position is,
0:04:11 > 0:04:15let's listen to the people of Scotland in the consultation period.
0:04:15 > 0:04:19Ironically, the UK Government's own consultation asks that question.
0:04:19 > 0:04:23Should there be one or more questions? You can't foreclose that
0:04:23 > 0:04:26before you listen to the people. think we need to get on with that
0:04:26 > 0:04:30and there needs to be a simple question. On those issues, we
0:04:30 > 0:04:33haven't made progress, which is frustrating. We have been told on
0:04:33 > 0:04:37the table there is another proposition. I am saying quite
0:04:38 > 0:04:41clearly, fine. Let's hear what it is. Give us the detail, the beef.
0:04:41 > 0:04:45You can't seriously expect the people of Scotland to go into this
0:04:45 > 0:04:48huge debate, the biggest debate for 300 years about the future of our
0:04:48 > 0:04:52country and have people say, look, we're thinking about giving you
0:04:52 > 0:04:56something else, but we're not going tell you what it is. That's not a
0:04:56 > 0:05:00tenable position. In this first referendum face-off, David Cameron
0:05:00 > 0:05:04says he came here with humility, that he'd fight for the union with
0:05:04 > 0:05:10his head, heart and soul. The two may fight for very different causes,
0:05:10 > 0:05:17have very different profiles, but in that regard, at least, the pair
0:05:17 > 0:05:23are evenly matched. Mr Cameron followed something of a
0:05:23 > 0:05:30tourist photo opportunity in his visit to Scotland. He headed to a
0:05:30 > 0:05:34porridge factory in the Forth Bridge.
0:05:34 > 0:05:37I think it's important we have this question answered that we have this
0:05:37 > 0:05:40debate about whether Scotland wants to stay in the United Kingdom or
0:05:40 > 0:05:43not. My argument is very simple. I am not saying that Scotland
0:05:43 > 0:05:47couldn't make it on her own. Of course Scotland could just as
0:05:47 > 0:05:50England could, but I dearly hope that this doesn't happen. I believe
0:05:50 > 0:05:54in the United Kingdom head, heart and soul. We've achieved so much
0:05:54 > 0:05:58together. We can go on achieving great things together, so I hope
0:05:58 > 0:06:03that when the time comes, Scots will vote to stay in our shared
0:06:03 > 0:06:05home. Do you worry that Scots voters may reject you and your
0:06:05 > 0:06:10party and the arguments you're making in this referendum in the
0:06:10 > 0:06:13way they tend to do in elections? Well, I am only one voice amongst
0:06:13 > 0:06:16many, as the British Prime Minister, the Prime Minister of the whole of
0:06:16 > 0:06:21the United Kingdom, I want to be here making the argument, helping
0:06:21 > 0:06:24to make the debate, there will be many others. There will be Labour
0:06:24 > 0:06:29politicians, Liberal Democrat politicians, people of no political
0:06:29 > 0:06:31party, people who hate politics - will all step forward and make
0:06:32 > 0:06:35arguments about whether Scotland should stay in the United Kingdom
0:06:35 > 0:06:40or not. And I think this has really in the end got to be the people's
0:06:40 > 0:06:44referendum. It's got to be their choice. As I say, I will be one
0:06:44 > 0:06:47person making the argument we have achieved a lot together. I hop we
0:06:47 > 0:06:50stay together. Doesn't it make it uncomfortable for you to have to
0:06:51 > 0:06:55subcontract much of this campaign to others? No, because it's not a
0:06:55 > 0:06:58campaign of any one politician or party. I think it's important we
0:06:58 > 0:07:01open this debate up and allow the Scottish people themselves -
0:07:01 > 0:07:04they're the ones who must make the decision about whether to stay in
0:07:04 > 0:07:10the United Kingdom with all of the combined and shared strengths we
0:07:10 > 0:07:14have or to go their own way. Let's be clear - is it your view that an
0:07:14 > 0:07:18independent Scotland could be a successful country? I think, of
0:07:18 > 0:07:21course, if Scotland chose to go it alone, there would of course be
0:07:21 > 0:07:25challenges. All countries face challenges. It's never been part of
0:07:25 > 0:07:28my argument that Scotland couldn't make it on her own. There are small
0:07:28 > 0:07:33countries in Europe that make it on their own, but my argument is we're
0:07:33 > 0:07:36better all. We're stronger together, fairer together, richer together.
0:07:36 > 0:07:39There's solidarity together when one part of the United Kingdom
0:07:39 > 0:07:42suffers a setback, whether it's a drought or a flood or severe
0:07:42 > 0:07:46weather or economic dislocation, we're there for each other. There
0:07:46 > 0:07:50is real solidarity in the United Kingdom, and we've achieved all of
0:07:50 > 0:07:52these things together, and I think to throw that away would be deeply,
0:07:52 > 0:07:58deeply sad. Isn't it possible thaw independent Scotland with oil
0:07:58 > 0:08:04revenues flowing could be better off than it is now? I think you'd
0:08:04 > 0:08:09have the advantages of oil, but you'd have the disadvantages of an
0:08:09 > 0:08:15overextended banking system. There would be pluses and minuses on the
0:08:15 > 0:08:18sheet. There would be future costs of pensions. You can have the
0:08:18 > 0:08:23argument, and of course, we can look at all the facts and figures,
0:08:23 > 0:08:26but this comes down to more than economics. It's about who we are,
0:08:26 > 0:08:30about this shared history, shared country and shared United Kingdom
0:08:30 > 0:08:33that we have and its future potential, and the real question is
0:08:33 > 0:08:38not just are we going to be richer in the United Kingdom, which I
0:08:38 > 0:08:42think we will, but also are we going to be stronger? A we going to
0:08:42 > 0:08:45have more influence? Are we going to be able to help each other
0:08:45 > 0:08:50through difficult things? All of these things we have had over 300
0:08:50 > 0:08:53years point the way to the future. This will be decided in a
0:08:53 > 0:08:57referendum. On Alex Salmond's timetable it would be held in
0:08:57 > 0:09:01autumn 2014. Is there any way you would agree to there being another
0:09:01 > 0:09:04question on the ballot paper about more devolved power for Scotland
0:09:04 > 0:09:08short of independence? No, I don't think that is appropriate. I think,
0:09:08 > 0:09:12look, there is a simple question here that we have to settle which
0:09:12 > 0:09:15is, does Scotland want to stay in the United Kingdom? As I said, I
0:09:15 > 0:09:18hope she does. I hope people will vote that way, but it seems to me
0:09:18 > 0:09:24we have to settle that question - a question that arises because
0:09:24 > 0:09:28there's an SNP majority in Scotland. We have to settle that question
0:09:28 > 0:09:33before then going on and asking - I think quite legitimately - is there
0:09:33 > 0:09:37more that we can do to improve the devolved settlement? Are there
0:09:37 > 0:09:40other powers that can be devolved? How can we make the United Kingdom
0:09:41 > 0:09:44work better? I believe in devolution, and I don't just mean
0:09:44 > 0:09:48devolution in terms of power. I mean devolution in terms of giving
0:09:48 > 0:09:50people greater control over their own lives. I want to see more
0:09:51 > 0:09:55Scottish homeowners, more successful Scottish businesses,
0:09:55 > 0:09:58more people being able to keep their money as they choose. I
0:09:58 > 0:10:00believe in really devolving power to people, but as I say, after we
0:10:00 > 0:10:03have settled the independence question, if the answer to that
0:10:03 > 0:10:06question is that Scotland wants to stay in the United Kingdom - and I
0:10:06 > 0:10:09hope that is the answer - of course then we can have a further
0:10:09 > 0:10:13conversation about how much - how best to arrange the devolved
0:10:13 > 0:10:16settlement so it works for everybody. I am joined from
0:10:16 > 0:10:22Edinburgh by the journalist and critic Joyce McMillan and here in
0:10:22 > 0:10:28Glasgow by Professor John Curtis of Strathclyde University. John Curtis,
0:10:28 > 0:10:32where are we on the referendum - amicable agreement or not, do you
0:10:32 > 0:10:35think? The truth is neither the meeting between the First Minister
0:10:35 > 0:10:37and Michael Moore, the Scottish Secretary on Monday, or today's
0:10:37 > 0:10:41meeting between the Prime Minister and Alex Salmond has done anything
0:10:41 > 0:10:44in a sense to move forward the debate between the two governments
0:10:44 > 0:10:48about the process of the referendum. In truth, there was never any
0:10:48 > 0:10:52prospect that these meetings would move things forward because both
0:10:52 > 0:10:55governments have now put the issue out to public consultation, and
0:10:55 > 0:10:58therefore neither can seen to be giving ground until their
0:10:58 > 0:11:02consultation is over, so to that extent nothing was going to happen.
0:11:02 > 0:11:06What we have seen, however, today is we have seen the Prime Minister
0:11:06 > 0:11:09as, in effect, the Conservative leader in this respect accepting
0:11:09 > 0:11:15that should Scotland vote against independence there might then be
0:11:15 > 0:11:19further debate about more devolution. Now, in that respect,
0:11:19 > 0:11:23he's moved his party's position closer to that of the Labour Party
0:11:23 > 0:11:29and the Liberal Democrats in recent weeks and in some sense cut across
0:11:29 > 0:11:33what the Scottish Conservative leader, Ruth Davidson said, which
0:11:33 > 0:11:36is we shouldn't move beyond the Scotland powers... The point is
0:11:36 > 0:11:41this Section 30 - the British Government says to the Scottish
0:11:41 > 0:11:44Government, you can legally hold a referendum. It's then not
0:11:44 > 0:11:49challenged in the lower courts. If Alex Salmond goes ahead with his
0:11:49 > 0:11:54referendum, it is open to a legal challenge. There's got to be some
0:11:54 > 0:11:59sort of... Exactly. But don't expect that issue to resolve any
0:11:59 > 0:12:04time soon. The SNP's consultation goes on until early May - in fact,
0:12:04 > 0:12:09probably quite deliberately it goes on to the other side of the local
0:12:10 > 0:12:13elections we're having in Scotland. I don't think you should expect the
0:12:13 > 0:12:17SNP to make any concession on the referendum until those are over. I
0:12:17 > 0:12:20think we'll be looking into the summer, early autumn before we know
0:12:20 > 0:12:24whether either of the two governments are going to come to
0:12:24 > 0:12:32some agreement, or if not, what Mr Salmond is going to do instead.
0:12:32 > 0:12:38The more powers offer from David Cameron, what did you make of that?
0:12:38 > 0:12:43Well, you know, it really does conjure up that historic memory of
0:12:43 > 0:12:47Alec Douglas Hulme, accidents it, and how far Scots will remember
0:12:47 > 0:12:50that and decide not to be impressed by the idea of a Tory Prime
0:12:50 > 0:12:54Minister offering better devolution if we just say no to independence.
0:12:54 > 0:12:58I just don't know. I think that's possibly one of the least important
0:12:58 > 0:13:02aspects of what he said today. I mean, I'm struck by how much better
0:13:02 > 0:13:07he is at playing this game of handling of devolution question or
0:13:07 > 0:13:10the whole Scottish question than Margaret Thatcher ever was. He's an
0:13:10 > 0:13:13equally right-wing Conservative Prime Minister, we've found out. In
0:13:13 > 0:13:17many ways the Scottish people will reject him as they did Margaret
0:13:17 > 0:13:21Thatcher. But I think he is better at playing this issue. I think he
0:13:21 > 0:13:24is wise toint deuce the dimension of emotion and the mention of his
0:13:24 > 0:13:27own family background and all the rest of it into this debate,
0:13:27 > 0:13:31because that is what you hear people saying in pubs, that oh,
0:13:31 > 0:13:34well, yeah, I quite like the idea of independence, but these
0:13:34 > 0:13:38connections between Scotland and England are very, very strong. I
0:13:38 > 0:13:42have kids down there or family down there, how's it going to pan out,
0:13:42 > 0:13:46etc. Making this kind of positive, warm, emotional case for the union
0:13:46 > 0:13:49is probably the best way for him to go. I think he did it quite well
0:13:49 > 0:13:53today. How much influence it will have on Scottish voters remains to
0:13:53 > 0:13:58be seen. I think Alex Salmond would be unwise to write it off
0:13:58 > 0:14:01completely. There's been a vacuum where the positive and sort of,
0:14:02 > 0:14:07emotional arguments for the union should be and that David Cameron
0:14:07 > 0:14:10has started to fill it. Were you equally impressed? I'm not quite so
0:14:10 > 0:14:14impressed. I agree with Joyce that a potent part of the speech today
0:14:14 > 0:14:18was he began to flush out what he understood the positive case for
0:14:18 > 0:14:24the union to be. And he's moved away from what has long been too
0:14:24 > 0:14:28much of the standard Unionist tune to say frankly, Scotland just isn't
0:14:28 > 0:14:31credible as an independent country. He's moved away from that territory.
0:14:32 > 0:14:34The emotion he was trying to sell was very much the owe motion of
0:14:34 > 0:14:40somebody who believes in Britain and has a strong sense of British
0:14:40 > 0:14:45identity. He was trying to sell the idea of the United Kingdom
0:14:45 > 0:14:50collectively being strong together. What he wasn't doing was saying how
0:14:50 > 0:14:53Scotland would be better off within the union and he certainly wasn't
0:14:53 > 0:15:00trying to wrap his argument in terms of Scottish identity or in
0:15:00 > 0:15:05terms of the as opposed to Britishness. If the unionists want
0:15:05 > 0:15:08to cement their case they need not to simply tug into British emotions,
0:15:08 > 0:15:12they need to tug into Scottish emotions. At the end of the day,
0:15:12 > 0:15:15it's Scottish emotions which are the most dominant for people in
0:15:15 > 0:15:20Scotland. Yes, people do feel the ties to tkphraen, but for most
0:15:20 > 0:15:23people they are now secondary to their sense of Scottishness. The
0:15:23 > 0:15:26unionists have to say yes, we are going to give Scotland a positive
0:15:26 > 0:15:30vision that enables Scotland's identity to be expressed adequately
0:15:30 > 0:15:35within the UK. Do you agree with that? I suppose you mite argue that
0:15:35 > 0:15:39he did try to make a positive case, but it's just he didn't talk about
0:15:39 > 0:15:42the things we're used to hearing about. He did try. I thought one or
0:15:42 > 0:15:48two of the things he said were quite powerful. It doesn't make
0:15:48 > 0:15:52much sense for him to talk about fairness. If Scots were primarily
0:15:52 > 0:15:56concerned with fairness, they would probably leave the union. When he
0:15:56 > 0:16:00talks about solidarity, not having the kind of problem in Europe about
0:16:00 > 0:16:03whether to help Greece or not, that is true. There's an automatic
0:16:03 > 0:16:07exchange of resources in the UK, which still goes on. So some of
0:16:07 > 0:16:11these arguments are strong. The personal argument about people's
0:16:11 > 0:16:14personal tie sz strong. The argument about the ever closer
0:16:14 > 0:16:19economic links between Scotland and England is quite strong. This is
0:16:19 > 0:16:24the strongest speech in favour the union, I mean, the competition is
0:16:24 > 0:16:27lamentable. But this is nonetheless the strongest speech in favour the
0:16:27 > 0:16:31union, the most positive that we've heard in Scotland for maybe a
0:16:31 > 0:16:35decade or more, perhaps half a century, in some ways and quite a
0:16:35 > 0:16:40warm, emotional one too. It seems to me that the question now is what
0:16:40 > 0:16:43the heck are the lamentable Unionist parties going to do? They
0:16:43 > 0:16:47cannot really have David Cameron as John Curtice says, leading this
0:16:47 > 0:16:51campaign from London and talking only about the British dimension of
0:16:51 > 0:16:55it. Where are they? Where is their positive argument for new Scottish
0:16:55 > 0:17:00rule in the union and for a new wave of constitutional reform?
0:17:00 > 0:17:04Their silence is really shocking. I think it's actually becoming a
0:17:04 > 0:17:08problem for Alex Salmond. If there is going to be a devo max option,
0:17:08 > 0:17:12then you need some parties that are willing to stand up and speak for
0:17:12 > 0:17:15that option. That can't really be the SNP because it's not a core
0:17:15 > 0:17:19policy. Where are the parties that are supposed to support devo max.
0:17:19 > 0:17:23In an odd way that question that Joyce McMillan has asked was sort
0:17:23 > 0:17:27of there is David Cameron's speech. He was careful to say look, my
0:17:27 > 0:17:31party, I know we're a bit unpopular in Scotland, but don't you think he
0:17:31 > 0:17:34played that bit quite well? I mean, there was a very open
0:17:34 > 0:17:38acknowledgement that he was not going to be capable as the Prime
0:17:38 > 0:17:43Minister of the United Kingdom to lead the campaign for the union.
0:17:43 > 0:17:46And an open acknowledgement that he would need to be working alongside
0:17:46 > 0:17:50Labour and the Liberal Democrats. That is one of the crucial
0:17:50 > 0:17:55questions, will the three parties be willing and able to coordinate
0:17:55 > 0:17:58and collaborate and come up with a common campaign vision? His move on
0:17:58 > 0:18:01devolution helps to make that possible. We still at some point
0:18:01 > 0:18:05need for example, the Labour Party to indicate, yes, they are indeed
0:18:05 > 0:18:08willing to stand on the same platform0s David Cameron in defence
0:18:08 > 0:18:12of the union. If they're not willing to engage in that kind of
0:18:12 > 0:18:15collaboration, the truth is the Unionist campaign will be at risk
0:18:15 > 0:18:20of being fragmented and the immediate political interest of the
0:18:20 > 0:18:24parties will look as though they're more important than apparently wish
0:18:24 > 0:18:28to maintain the existing state. wasn't all positive, Joyce McMillan.
0:18:28 > 0:18:32It was threaded with some of these things, that the SNP have been
0:18:32 > 0:18:38accused of being unclear of what they mean by independence. There
0:18:38 > 0:18:41seems to be a policy in London of being unclear as well. Mervyn King
0:18:41 > 0:18:44didn't want to talk about whether Scotland could be part of the pound
0:18:44 > 0:18:48and what the role of the Bank of England would be. David Cameron
0:18:48 > 0:18:53talked about if Scotland was part of a pound zone, he said it would
0:18:53 > 0:18:56have to negotiate, the phrase was, have to negotiate things it now
0:18:56 > 0:19:01gets as right. There was little detail there. I don't think anyone
0:19:01 > 0:19:04in this debate is big on detail. Alex Salmond is not big on detail.
0:19:04 > 0:19:08He's big on creating mood music about the possibility of a positive
0:19:08 > 0:19:13Scottish future, with a vague sense of energy wealth in the background
0:19:13 > 0:19:17to pay for some of it. By the same token, David Cameron is now trying
0:19:17 > 0:19:20to create positive mood music about the future of the union or at least
0:19:20 > 0:19:25more positive than we've heard for a while. I think that does change
0:19:25 > 0:19:29the game slightly. I think if the SNP are as good as strategy as they
0:19:29 > 0:19:33think they are, they'll be taking this reasonably seriously. I think
0:19:33 > 0:19:37there is a big vacuum in the Scottish-based arguments for the
0:19:37 > 0:19:41union. I'm increasingly, as an observer of Scottish politics,
0:19:41 > 0:19:46shocked by the weakness of the Scottish Unionist parties. And by
0:19:46 > 0:19:50their lack of creativity in this debate. Today, David Cameron looked
0:19:50 > 0:19:53very good by comparison with them. And that wouldn't have been the
0:19:53 > 0:19:57situation 15 or 20 years ago. It's actually very telling about their
0:19:57 > 0:20:01weakness. We have to leave it there. Thank you both very much. A very