:00:14. > :00:18.Greece. Thank you are very much On Newsnight Scotland tonight's,
:00:18. > :00:26.Rupert Murdoch has treated to say he reckons Scotland could go it
:00:26. > :00:29.alone and that might be good for competition. Is it a game changed?
:00:29. > :00:31.Also tonight, is there really a line in the sand between the
:00:31. > :00:34.leaders of Scotland's Conservatives? Is it possible to
:00:34. > :00:39.campaign for the status quo, but still talk meaningfully about what
:00:39. > :00:43.extra devolution might be appropriate? The executive chairman
:00:43. > :00:47.of News Corporation, Rupert Murdoch, clearly likes to make the news as
:00:47. > :00:51.well as reported. You might think he would be distracted by events at
:00:51. > :00:54.the Leveson Inquiry, the arrest of some of his staff by Metropolitan
:00:54. > :01:00.Police or even by the imminent launch of his new Sunday paper, but
:01:00. > :01:04.in spite of all that, he found time yesterday to tweet to his 200,000
:01:04. > :01:08.followers that Alex Salmond is, in his view, the most brilliant
:01:08. > :01:15.politician in the UK. He topped that this evening with a tweet for
:01:15. > :01:19.suggesting he may now be in favour of Scottish independence.
:01:19. > :01:23.The Sun is the biggest selling newspaper in Scotland. Ahead of
:01:23. > :01:27.last year's Holyrood election it came out in favour of the SNP,
:01:27. > :01:32.although stopped short of backing an independent Scotland. This
:01:32. > :01:42.evening, its owner has used Briton to suggest he may now support
:01:42. > :01:53.
:01:53. > :01:58.That followed his tweet yesterday The Sun has flooded with
:01:58. > :02:02.independence in the past. Ahead of the 1992 election, it urged Scots
:02:02. > :02:08.to rise and be a nation again, and withdrawing that support a few
:02:08. > :02:13.years later. In 2007, it was urbane -- against both independence and
:02:13. > :02:18.the SNP, suggesting they vote for the nationalists would be suicidal.
:02:18. > :02:25.Then last year, for the first time, Issa N Daws Alex Salmond and the
:02:25. > :02:30.SNP. -- the Sun endorsed Alex Salmond. So now that its proprietor
:02:30. > :02:36.appears to be backing independence will be newspaper follows suit and
:02:36. > :02:42.what independence -- effect, if any, would that have on how people voted
:02:42. > :02:46.in the independence referendum? Professor John Curtice is here. How
:02:46. > :02:52.do you read this intervention in support of independence from Rupert
:02:52. > :02:57.Murdoch, if indeed that is what it is? A couple of things behind this.
:02:57. > :03:01.Intrigue, Rupert Murdoch has indeed recognise that Alex Salmond is an
:03:01. > :03:06.unusually popular politician. He has been in power for five years
:03:06. > :03:11.and is undoubtedly more popular than either of the three
:03:11. > :03:15.politicians south of the border. He is simply reporting what he sees.
:03:15. > :03:22.The interesting take he has got an independence is the idea that
:03:22. > :03:26.Scotland may be going towards it. - - might be able to compete. Maybe
:03:26. > :03:29.we are seeing here a bit of a canny businessman as well. Mr Murdoch
:03:29. > :03:34.thinking, if Scotland is independent, maybe the corporation
:03:34. > :03:36.tax in Scotland might be lower and maybe I might lose some of my
:03:36. > :03:41.operations north of the border instead. Some critics might point
:03:41. > :03:45.out this is exactly the kind of problem that might arise if you
:03:45. > :03:49.have competing tax regimes on both side of the border. Tonight a
:03:49. > :03:53.spokesman for the First Minister has welcomed the Rupert Murdoch's
:03:53. > :03:56.contribution, as he would welcome any contribution to the debate. The
:03:56. > :04:01.Liberal Democrat leader in Scotland has said this is precisely the sort
:04:01. > :04:05.of endorsement politicians now fear, though. Certainly, given the there
:04:05. > :04:09.is PR and legal difficulties in News International aria at the
:04:09. > :04:14.moment, perhaps the endorsement of the Sun is no longer something
:04:14. > :04:18.people would look for as they did ten years ago. But one can always
:04:18. > :04:22.exaggerate the amount of influence the Sun had, even in its heyday,
:04:22. > :04:28.and frankly we should bear in mind that half the Scottish population
:04:28. > :04:34.do not read any newspaper at all. So go back to the story of 1992.
:04:34. > :04:41.Then, side of the border, the Sun claimed it was the Sun what won it
:04:41. > :04:45.when intriguingly, part of the UK was most advanced, in Scotland, the
:04:45. > :04:48.Sun was supporting the SNP. That is one example of how we can
:04:48. > :04:52.exaggerate the degree to which newspapers or Rupert Murdoch can
:04:52. > :05:00.actually change things. But what is interesting is that what the Sun
:05:00. > :05:06.does often tend to do is it does tend to follow the tide. Ipswich
:05:06. > :05:15.from the Conservatives in the 1980s to Labour before 1997, back to the
:05:15. > :05:21.Conservatives and then the SNP. of course, the Sun in 2007 opposed
:05:21. > :05:26.the SNP and they did go on to win. So it does not always get its calls
:05:26. > :05:34.right. And perhaps also, with asking -- worth asking if Rupert
:05:34. > :05:38.Murdoch takes a political view comet does it necessarily a follow
:05:38. > :05:45.that his newspapers will follow? Undoubtedly one can our participate
:05:45. > :05:52.that editors will be aware of his views. -- one can anticipate. He is
:05:52. > :05:56.in a particularly unusual position at the moment you advise editors.
:05:56. > :06:04.Those who do not read newspapers cannot be back influenced by what
:06:04. > :06:08.they are not reading birds are those people those most likely not
:06:08. > :06:13.to vote? Those people not reading newspapers are those least likely
:06:13. > :06:18.to vote. Newspapers in general are struggling to reach the less
:06:18. > :06:22.particularly interested part of the population. But if you followed
:06:23. > :06:27.what happens to those people who read newspapers over a period of
:06:28. > :06:33.time and follow their political views, it is true that he peaky by
:06:33. > :06:38.reading a conservatively can find newspaper, then those people are
:06:38. > :06:42.more likely to become Conservative. You can see at an individual level
:06:42. > :06:46.newspapers having some influence but it is always the case when
:06:46. > :06:50.there are newspapers batting on both sides and therefore they do
:06:51. > :06:56.not necessarily have that much impact on the overall outcome.
:06:56. > :07:00.suppose one thing that could be important in all of this if Rupert
:07:00. > :07:04.Murdoch's titles were to take the pro-independence line across the UK,
:07:04. > :07:08.it could have an influence on opinion in England and Wales about
:07:08. > :07:12.Scottish independence? One of the things Alex Salmond has been trying
:07:12. > :07:15.to do and has put a lot of effort into, and last week, is to try to
:07:15. > :07:20.persuade people in England that independence for Scotland would be
:07:20. > :07:22.good for England. And certainly Alex Salmond will be delighted
:07:22. > :07:28.insofar as he can get support from the south of the border and
:07:28. > :07:32.certainly he does not have people coming down from south of the
:07:32. > :07:42.border, trying to all due against his case for independence. --
:07:42. > :07:42.
:07:42. > :07:46.The Prime Minister's visit to Scotland created a number of waves.
:07:46. > :07:49.One of the question that has not been answered is whether the
:07:49. > :07:55.Scottish Conservative view that there is no need for any more
:07:55. > :07:59.devolution was contradicted by David Cameron. He was pretty
:07:59. > :08:03.explicit in discussing what more might be done in terms of devolving
:08:03. > :08:11.power as if his side won the referendum. In a moment I will hear
:08:11. > :08:17.from the leader of the Scottish Conservatives, but first the report.
:08:17. > :08:22.It might look smiles and cordiality, but they are both playing for high
:08:22. > :08:26.stakes. No accident that the Prime Minister was forced to sit in front
:08:26. > :08:31.of a map with lots of yellow on it. It reminds him of the mandate to
:08:31. > :08:37.hold a referendum. David Cameron was offering movement on the
:08:37. > :08:40.devolution settlement. That was as long as independence is rejected.
:08:40. > :08:44.After we settle the independence question, if the answer is Scotland
:08:44. > :08:48.is going to stay in the United Kingdom, we can have a further
:08:48. > :08:54.conversation about how much, how best to arrange the devolved
:08:54. > :08:59.settlement so it works for everybody. What does this cut
:08:59. > :09:04.across the current Tory leader, Ruth Davidson? She made it clear
:09:04. > :09:09.she considered the Scotland Bill a line in the sand not to be crossed.
:09:09. > :09:13.Let us see this working before we moved to the next thing. That is
:09:13. > :09:17.not a line in the sand. I want to see the Scotland Bill working on
:09:17. > :09:21.the ground. We may need to tweak things, but if you're talking about
:09:21. > :09:26.things like wholesale conversion of corporation tax, I do not believe
:09:26. > :09:30.that is the right thing to do. Davidson's caution about further
:09:30. > :09:37.devolution won the support of traditional Tories, including Lord
:09:37. > :09:41.Forsyth. The truth is this is a time bomb at the heart of the Union.
:09:41. > :09:45.In the Scotsman newspaper, Lord Forsyth says the Prime Minister's
:09:45. > :09:51.offer of further devolution is a risky approach. He is quoted as
:09:51. > :09:54.saying if this is a tactic it will play into Alex Salmond's hands. He
:09:54. > :09:59.says the last thing he wants his people talking about what
:09:59. > :10:05.independence would mean. Just how far to go with devolution
:10:05. > :10:08.was a part of the Scottish Tory leadership debate, with one of the
:10:08. > :10:15.candidates calling for more financial powers for Holyrood.
:10:15. > :10:20.have always believed him more power for it. We were anti-devolution for
:10:20. > :10:24.a very good reasons at the time, but we were allowed to be portrayed
:10:24. > :10:31.as anti-Scottish. We need to get over that, and the way to do that
:10:31. > :10:36.is to be positive about devolution. That has meant conceding to the SNP
:10:36. > :10:41.shopping list. We offered our support to the Scotland Bill going
:10:41. > :10:45.through Westminster. I regard that as a very positive move, creating
:10:45. > :10:52.more accountable politicians in Edinburgh. It is not just the
:10:52. > :10:56.Tories' showing signs of movement. Labour are also having to adjust.
:10:56. > :11:00.Nobody would argue that what we have at the moment is satisfactory.
:11:00. > :11:04.It was fine in 1998, things have moved on, the constitution is
:11:04. > :11:09.always something to look at and see what is best. The first question
:11:09. > :11:13.you have to ask before you get on to any change at all, are we
:11:13. > :11:18.staying in the UK or are we going to leave? If we are going to leave,
:11:18. > :11:24.there are other questions arising. If we stay, we can look at what we
:11:24. > :11:29.need to do. In all of this, Alex Salmond is demanding clarity from
:11:29. > :11:33.others on devolution Max, while remaining spectacularly they about
:11:33. > :11:37.independence. If the Prime Minister has an offer to make to the people
:11:37. > :11:41.of Scotland, he should make it now. He should spell it out so we can
:11:41. > :11:47.have a clear debate on the alternative futures for Scotland.
:11:47. > :11:53.This idea of voting no and you will get something later will not
:11:53. > :11:58.convince anybody in Scotland. He is on very shaky ground if he believes
:11:58. > :12:04.people in Scotland will be fooled again. Right now, the balancing act
:12:04. > :12:10.is between a Scottish Conservative leader voted then on a very
:12:10. > :12:14.different angle from the Tory prime minister.
:12:14. > :12:20.I am joined now by the leader of the Scottish Conservatives, with
:12:20. > :12:27.Davidson. Whose idea was it to change the position and dangle the
:12:27. > :12:30.possibility of more devolution if independence is defeated? What was
:12:30. > :12:35.important about that piece is it shows that David Cameron and I are
:12:35. > :12:41.in complete agreement on the big question, we have to sort the big
:12:41. > :12:48.question now. Do we want separation? Do we want to keep the
:12:48. > :12:52.devolved settlement? But you both agree there should be more
:12:52. > :12:56.devolution after a referendum if independence is defeated. That is
:12:56. > :13:02.not what either of us said. We have had regular meetings on this issue
:13:02. > :13:07.since I became leader. What was said by both of us is the priority
:13:07. > :13:10.is to make sure that the referendum happens, the big question about
:13:10. > :13:17.separation is settled, and if there needs to be further discussion
:13:17. > :13:21.about devolution that is the time to have it. Are you not committed?
:13:21. > :13:27.I am asking you to clarify. Are you committed to more devolution for
:13:27. > :13:30.Scotland? I am absolutely committed. We are about to get it, it is
:13:30. > :13:37.called the Scotland Bill. It is the biggest transfer of the school
:13:37. > :13:44.power to the Scotland -- biggest transfer of financial power to the
:13:44. > :13:51.Scottish Parliament in 300 years. It brings in many areas of
:13:51. > :13:57.legislation, it is comprehensive. That should be approved by the UK
:13:57. > :14:02.Parliament prior to the referendum, correct? First of all, we need to
:14:02. > :14:11.expedite the referendum. Scotland Bill predates the
:14:11. > :14:16.referendum. At the moment, it is sitting in the House of Lords. It
:14:16. > :14:21.has been in the Commons, it is going back there. It should be in
:14:21. > :14:28.on the ground by 2015. That is after the timetable for at the
:14:28. > :14:33.referendum. Are you suggesting that the contents of the Scotland Bill
:14:34. > :14:38.could meet demand, desire for further devolution in Scotland?
:14:38. > :14:42.think it could. Other people in Scotland could disagree with me. If
:14:42. > :14:47.there is a discussion the Scottish Conservatives want to be part of
:14:47. > :14:51.that discussion. We have always taken part in discussions of
:14:51. > :14:56.devolution in good faith. During the Calman Commission we were
:14:56. > :15:02.involved in that. A lot of people said we would not do anything with
:15:02. > :15:06.the Calman Commission, the Scotland Bill was brought forward. Is it not
:15:06. > :15:12.a line in the sand, as you describe the during your leadership
:15:12. > :15:17.campaign? In terms of what we saw, this has been crystal clear. We
:15:17. > :15:21.need to get this in and work it before we look at more powers. We
:15:21. > :15:26.need to settle the big questions about whether Scotland is the bake
:15:26. > :15:30.-- is a separate nation broken off from the UK or whether it exists as
:15:31. > :15:40.a devolved settlement? Will you go into the election promising further
:15:40. > :15:46.devolution as well as what is in the Scotland Bill? As I have said
:15:46. > :15:52.before, we are going through a wholesale review of our policies
:15:52. > :15:56.before the 2015 election. I am talking right across the board. Not
:15:56. > :16:01.just to our membership, but also act with that. People across
:16:01. > :16:05.Scotland. When you set up a committee in the way the Liberal
:16:05. > :16:10.Democrats have looking at the future of devolution and potential
:16:10. > :16:14.for further powers in Holyrood? What you say is really interesting,
:16:14. > :16:19.what we see is a debate in other parties about what form the see
:16:19. > :16:25.devolved government in Scotland taking. There is debate among
:16:25. > :16:30.members of our party. I want to make sure everybody has heard, I am
:16:30. > :16:36.not sure it will be the same as the Liberal Democrats, but we will look
:16:36. > :16:43.at this policy area. It will be brought forward in the same way we
:16:43. > :16:49.are bringing all policy areas for word. We are looking at papers and
:16:49. > :16:53.reviews. We have won in education on going, another before local
:16:53. > :17:02.government elections, we had leaders telling us what they want
:17:02. > :17:06.to look at, and there will be won on the constitutional question.
:17:06. > :17:11.there Scotland Bill a line in the sand or not? My position is what it
:17:11. > :17:16.was last time we talked about this, I want to see the Scotland Bill Inn.
:17:16. > :17:20.Since we last spoke about this, the Prime Minister has been to Scotland,
:17:20. > :17:24.made a high-profile speech, and in interviews suggested he may be in
:17:24. > :17:29.favour of further devolution but that can only be considered after
:17:29. > :17:34.an independence referendum. He said he would consider and discuss it.
:17:34. > :17:39.That is not quite the same thing as flying the flag for it. So he is
:17:39. > :17:42.not offering a particular package and not drying up a particular
:17:42. > :17:47.package in order to put two people prior to the independence
:17:47. > :17:51.referendum? It is incumbent on Alex Salmond to tell us what he sees
:17:51. > :17:56.independence as being. His mock road rage from Alex Salmond this
:17:56. > :18:01.week is to deploy -- is up like to deflect that he is not answering
:18:01. > :18:09.questions about independence. He is not giving us answers on the
:18:09. > :18:15.economy, defence, and he is trying to deflect from that. If he is
:18:15. > :18:20.still interested, why is he talking now about settlements on
:18:20. > :18:25.devolution? Why is he not making the case for independence? Lord
:18:25. > :18:31.Forsyth thinks it is the Prime Minister that is speaking to Alex
:18:31. > :18:36.Salmond's agenda and playing into his hands by talking about further
:18:36. > :18:40.devolution. Is he correct? He also thinks we need to discuss whether
:18:40. > :18:44.to be a separate state before devolution. He thinks you are going
:18:44. > :18:49.soft on the union. He is a man of strong views, and there is a
:18:49. > :18:53.healthy debate among our party. is not daft, he can read between
:18:53. > :18:59.the lines in speeches. He will be during the conversation is taking
:18:59. > :19:05.place in your party, and he thinks you are selling the past. Let's
:19:05. > :19:10.look at the speech first. Have you reassured him otherwise? Yes I have.
:19:10. > :19:15.I spoke to him since the speech. What did you say to him? He agrees
:19:15. > :19:20.with me. We had a conversation. The fundamental question of settling
:19:20. > :19:24.independence, having a separate United Kingdom, or whether Scotland
:19:24. > :19:31.wants a devolved settlement within the United Kingdom, that is when we
:19:31. > :19:36.talk about it. There is no disagreement? I disagree with Lord
:19:36. > :19:40.Forsyth on many things but it is a healthy debate. The incumbency is
:19:40. > :19:44.on Alex Salmond to tell us what independence would be. This is a
:19:44. > :19:48.smokescreen for him. He will not answer the questions we need to
:19:48. > :19:57.make an informed choice in Scotland, questions about the economy, what
:19:57. > :20:02.currency we would have, the defence policy. Rupert Murdoch seems to be
:20:02. > :20:04.supporting independence, what do you think about that? I look
:20:04. > :20:10.forward to the day him and Tommy Sheridan are sharing a platform
:20:10. > :20:16.with Alex Salmond. with Alex Salmond.
:20:16. > :20:24.Now we will look at the front pages. The Daily Mail says we are all
:20:24. > :20:29.being spied on with CCTV cameras. The front page of the Guardian,
:20:29. > :20:35.voters are rejecting health reforms, wiping out the Conservative lead.
:20:35. > :20:42.The front page of the Telegraph goes with 500,000 let into the UK
:20:42. > :20:52.without checks. That is about the break-up of the UK Border Agency.
:20:52. > :21:01.
:21:01. > :21:06.Goodbye. It will be a mild tonight. The eastern areas will brighten up
:21:06. > :21:12.with sunshine. We will keep some rain in the West, it could be a wet
:21:12. > :21:16.24 hours and lead to some problems, particularly a wet Monday. We will
:21:16. > :21:23.see a break in the clouds in the east. Sunny spells are possible in
:21:23. > :21:29.the county's to the south. -- in the southern counties. South-west
:21:29. > :21:34.England will stay cloudy. It will be a damp start in Wales. We should
:21:34. > :21:38.get some bright skies in north-east Wales. The eastern half of Northern
:21:38. > :21:48.Ireland will brighten up. Temperatures may reach double
:21:48. > :21:49.
:21:49. > :21:53.figures. Across the north-east, temperatures up to 11. We could
:21:53. > :21:58.easily reach 13 on Wednesday but it will not feel mild because of thick
:21:58. > :22:02.cloud, I outbreaks of rain and strong wind. It will be very windy.
:22:02. > :22:10.There remain not reach south-east England until later on but it will