:00:13. > :00:15.Tonight on Newsnight Scotland... As Rangers' administrators thank the
:00:16. > :00:18.fans and other football clubs for their sympathy and understanding so
:00:18. > :00:22.far, we will ask about the politicians' reactions. Have they
:00:22. > :00:27.been wise to get involved? Or have they just made themselves look
:00:27. > :00:29.foolish? Also tonight, the First Minister's
:00:29. > :00:32.chief economic adviser tells me Britain would still have
:00:32. > :00:39.substantial control over the economy of an independent Scotland.
:00:39. > :00:42.And that keeping RBS might not be a great idea.
:00:42. > :00:47.Good evening. The administrators running Rangers put out a statement
:00:47. > :00:49.tonight thanking the club's fans for their loyal support so far.
:00:49. > :00:52.They also acknowledged that other football clubs are generally
:00:52. > :00:55.sympathetic and what they called very supportive of the survival of
:00:55. > :01:00.the club. But it is not just football fans who have special
:01:00. > :01:02.sympathy for Rangers. Politicians have always found it difficult to
:01:02. > :01:09.keep quiet about matters which interest the public. But it is
:01:09. > :01:13.potentially a rocky path. The Rangers manager, Ally McCoist,
:01:13. > :01:18.ashen-faced as he left Ibrox without speaking to reporters
:01:18. > :01:22.following a meeting with administrators this afternoon. At
:01:22. > :01:27.the weekend, fans tried hard to show solidarity with the club and
:01:27. > :01:32.their manager in particular. There is no doubting the raw emotion felt
:01:32. > :01:35.by fans in these difficult times. The club is part of their lives,
:01:35. > :01:40.the community and they are distraught at what is going on, but
:01:41. > :01:47.this club is also a multi- million pounds business with obligations to
:01:47. > :01:52.shareholders and, of course, the taxman. And when the Revenue could
:01:52. > :01:58.have gone easy on football clubs because of those places within the
:01:58. > :02:03.community, those days could have gone. Rangers is seen as more as a
:02:03. > :02:09.business than anything else. The majority shareholder, Craig Whyte,
:02:09. > :02:14.faces a number of questions, not least over �9 million over unpaid
:02:14. > :02:19.tax. Politicians have also been asking for understanding from the
:02:19. > :02:23.Revenue. We should keep an eye on what is best for Rangers and other
:02:23. > :02:29.clubs within Scottish football, that would be a sensible thing to
:02:29. > :02:34.do and asking both Rangers and Revenue and Customs that these
:02:34. > :02:38.matters should be settled best by sensible agreement. What we want to
:02:38. > :02:44.see, which the administrators should teach to do, is find a way
:02:44. > :02:50.forward for Rangers to fulfil their obligations, but for the sake of
:02:50. > :03:00.football and the people working there. It is not just the SNP
:03:00. > :03:10.
:03:10. > :03:20.asking for flexibility. Margaret And from Labour, it was said they
:03:20. > :03:21.
:03:21. > :03:26.Rangers fans might feel isolated, but even you the Revenue's case
:03:27. > :03:31.against Tottenham manager, Harry Redknapp, field, it shows at
:03:31. > :03:38.Rangers is in the spotlight. And Leeds United went into
:03:38. > :03:42.administration five years ago, falling �6 million of unpaid tax.
:03:42. > :03:50.Politicians are lawmakers and tax spenders at must be careful about
:03:50. > :03:58.defending those who sail close to the wind. How comfortable are the
:03:58. > :04:03.over these shots? One of these men failed to play players in time. As
:04:03. > :04:07.Ally McCoist drove away from Ibrox, he knew he could count on support
:04:07. > :04:13.from the bowler -- from the political world, but what should be
:04:13. > :04:16.carefully given out. So how easy is it to tread the line
:04:16. > :04:19.between being popular and overdoing the populism? I'm joined by two of
:04:19. > :04:21.Scotland's experts in manipulating politicians and voters. Former
:04:21. > :04:30.Labour spin-doctor Simon Pia is in Edinburgh. Former SNP spinner Ewan
:04:30. > :04:37.Crawford is with me here. Simon Pia, would you have advised those
:04:37. > :04:41.politicians to say what they were saying? The Labour Party, we are
:04:41. > :04:51.allowed to disagree with each other. I do none know if that would apply
:04:51. > :04:52.
:04:52. > :04:58.to Ewan. And I am a spin-doctor, or former spin-doctor,... You should
:04:58. > :05:02.be more subtle than that. I do not agree with Mark Wright or Brian
:05:02. > :05:09.Cowen that, that Rangers is a special case when it comes to tax.
:05:09. > :05:14.I know what it is like when you are club goes into administration.
:05:14. > :05:21.Hibernian were in a precarious situation than Rangers, with some
:05:21. > :05:27.takeovers that would have white that out as a club. Councillors and
:05:27. > :05:33.politicians got involved, which is right for constituents. But not
:05:33. > :05:42.when it comes to tax. You have to put the tax man first. If there is
:05:42. > :05:45.any illegality, it is the end ice. I am sure that the others from
:05:45. > :05:51.Labour would say they were not claiming that the taxpayer should
:05:51. > :05:56.not get the money that is due to it, but this is football in Scotland.
:05:56. > :06:01.Everyone knows, with Rangers, the taxman has been holding off with
:06:01. > :06:07.this building for a decade. The Scottish football media were very
:06:07. > :06:13.aware of this. There were untold -- it was not an untold secret that
:06:13. > :06:18.Rangers was in a precarious position. Would you have advised
:06:18. > :06:26.either of those Crewe SNP politicians to have said that?
:06:26. > :06:29.will come to the defence of some of the Labour politicians. In Scotland,
:06:29. > :06:36.when every you say something about Rangers, it is seen as dangerous,
:06:36. > :06:40.because it might upset Celtic. And vice versa. That is what we should
:06:40. > :06:46.look at, rather than take a sharp intake of breath when politicians
:06:46. > :06:51.talk about the Old Firm. It is the implication that somehow the
:06:51. > :06:59.survival of what is a private business is more important than the
:06:59. > :07:04.tax payer, whose money is spent, that money should be given. I have
:07:04. > :07:13.not heard politicians saying that tax should not be paid. Alex
:07:13. > :07:18.Salmond said it was the same interest at stake. But bows might
:07:18. > :07:22.not be the same. Getting the tax eventually it is most important.
:07:22. > :07:28.Say this was Manchester United or Liverpool faced with going to the
:07:28. > :07:33.wall. The idea that politicians in England would not talk about it
:07:33. > :07:38.would be fanciable. But it is walking on eggshells. When Alex
:07:38. > :07:43.Salmond spoke about Celtic needing Rangers just as much as Rangers
:07:43. > :07:48.needing Celtic, which I am sure many watching would say was
:07:48. > :07:55.binoculars, but all hell broke loose and Celtic put out official
:07:55. > :08:00.statements against that. But it seems you cannot talk about one
:08:00. > :08:04.Glasgow football club, would it be dreadful for the other one. We
:08:04. > :08:09.cannot be in a situation in Scotland where politicians of any
:08:09. > :08:16.party cannot talk about one part of the Old Firm, where it is talking
:08:16. > :08:22.on it -- where it is walking on eggshells. It was not quite that,
:08:22. > :08:27.was it, Simon Pia? What seemed to annoys Celtic was the suggestion
:08:27. > :08:32.that the team depended on Rangers. Perhaps without the Old Firm,
:08:32. > :08:38.Scottish football would suffer, but it did not stop Alex Salmond
:08:38. > :08:46.getting trouble. Ewan was seeming to make accorded defence of Alex
:08:46. > :08:52.Salmond. The sectarian bill was very poor, that was messed up.
:08:52. > :08:56.are at it again. I am trying to give you my opinion on this. Of
:08:56. > :09:02.course, politicians are right to step in for the ordinary football
:09:02. > :09:08.fans, the thousands and thousands of Rangers fans. Rangers might
:09:08. > :09:13.survive, with a new company formed, but people have to critically
:09:13. > :09:21.examined as scrutinise what has happened at the club. It is not for
:09:21. > :09:27.Parliament to get involved, it is up to the SPL, and we can
:09:27. > :09:32.scrutinise what has gone wrong, but... You think politicians of all
:09:32. > :09:41.parties should shut up? politicians should be wary about
:09:41. > :09:50.going on to a populist bandwagon. The SNP Government shunted
:09:50. > :09:56.sectarianism as site went coming in. A point is, court and, that the SNP
:09:56. > :10:03.got involved when there was an incident at the Old Firm game.
:10:03. > :10:09.politicians should shut up? It is interesting. Some politicians have
:10:09. > :10:15.got in trouble. But what you are saying about Rangers and Celtic,
:10:15. > :10:21.that will not be the debate. point I was trying to make, if this
:10:21. > :10:25.was happening in England, people would talk about their clubs.
:10:25. > :10:30.Gordon Brown has got involved, saying one of his memorable moments
:10:30. > :10:38.was Paul Gascoigne scoring against Scotland. So Labour politicians
:10:38. > :10:46.have spoken about football. this you a chance to level this? We
:10:46. > :10:49.will leave it there. Thank you both Now, as the independence debate
:10:49. > :10:51.increasingly gets round to matters of substance, I've been speaking to
:10:51. > :10:53.the Chair of the Government's council of economic advisers.
:10:53. > :10:55.Crawford Beveridge, who's an advocate of independence, was at
:10:55. > :10:59.Holyrood today answering questions at the economy committee.
:10:59. > :11:02.Afterwards at his Edinburgh home I began by asking him what he meant
:11:02. > :11:07.when he said recently that for an independent Scotland to keep the
:11:07. > :11:11.pound would not be ideal. I think where possible most countries would
:11:11. > :11:17.like to be able to control all of the leaders, including setting
:11:17. > :11:22.their own interest rates. Clearly whether we were in a European zone
:11:22. > :11:27.or a pound zone, we would want to decide what the interest rates
:11:27. > :11:29.would be. So that is why towards the end of the last council of
:11:29. > :11:33.economic advisers, we were suggesting that they would need to
:11:33. > :11:38.be some kind of Fiscal Commission that would allow people to sit down
:11:38. > :11:43.and say, what rules will we work under? Much as they are trying to
:11:43. > :11:48.do for the euro now. But this would be a British one. So even if
:11:48. > :11:54.Scotland was independent, it would be part of what? It would be part
:11:54. > :12:04.of a currency union would the rest of the UK. With a British physical
:12:04. > :12:04.
:12:04. > :12:09.condition? You would have won it to help the Scottish government here
:12:09. > :12:14.understand what these rules might be. Because that is one of the
:12:14. > :12:18.issues. If an independent Scotland wanted the Bank of England to act
:12:18. > :12:22.as a lender of last resort, and should the rest of the United
:12:22. > :12:25.Kingdom be willing to consider such an option, there would have to be
:12:25. > :12:30.some pretty stringent rules, wouldn't they? Along the lines of
:12:30. > :12:36.the kind of thing the eurozone are talking about. Absolutely. A lot of
:12:36. > :12:40.them would be the same kinds of things, the amount of yet -- the
:12:40. > :12:46.amount of debt to GDP that you could have, the amount of debt you
:12:46. > :12:50.could have in a year. And they would also have to be enforceable?
:12:50. > :12:55.Which this was not in the eurozone, so they would have to be some other
:12:55. > :12:58.mechanism? Yes, a lot of the things that went wrong in the eurozone,
:12:59. > :13:05.even though the main members were very keen and worked these rules
:13:05. > :13:08.are a long time ago, there were rules about how much you could go
:13:08. > :13:12.into debt. When they came up against countries like France, they
:13:12. > :13:17.can be ignored that and went forward. There must be some
:13:17. > :13:21.mechanism that says, you cannot go beyond the rules we have set.
:13:21. > :13:25.obvious problem with a British currency is that of the rest of the
:13:25. > :13:31.UK would be so dominant compared to Scotland that it would effectively
:13:31. > :13:36.be able to set the rules. Except within very tight margins on things
:13:36. > :13:40.like how much the Scottish Government could borrow? Absolutely
:13:40. > :13:46.right. You cannot ignore what the lender of last resort is going to
:13:46. > :13:50.lay down in terms of what is upset. But if we went ahead and did some
:13:50. > :13:54.borrowing within reasonable means, that would be a good thing. One of
:13:54. > :13:58.the things that is Hape well at the moment is the number of -- the
:13:58. > :14:02.might have time the Government is spending on capital, which will
:14:02. > :14:06.kick-start the economy. You cannot cut your way to great, you have to
:14:06. > :14:09.find a way to get growth back into the economy. The obvious
:14:09. > :14:15.counterpoint to this is that of the British Government is already
:14:15. > :14:18.giving the Scottish Government borrowing powers. If under a
:14:18. > :14:22.currency zone, the parameters of those borrowing powers would be
:14:22. > :14:27.very limited, because it would have to be part of the fiscal pact, it
:14:27. > :14:31.is not quite clear what the difference would be, and whether
:14:31. > :14:36.there is any advantage of going through this whole shenanigans of
:14:36. > :14:40.independence when you end up with much the same thing. What we don't
:14:40. > :14:48.know is what UN do with the same thing, and how much lead -- leeway
:14:48. > :14:55.there would be. But it is more than a detail. One of these supposedly
:14:55. > :14:59.compelling arguments of the Scottish National Party is that it
:14:59. > :15:03.knows that as things stand at the moment, the majority of people are
:15:03. > :15:08.against independence, and it has come up with a compelling economic
:15:08. > :15:13.reason, that we would have fiscal powers, that what we seem to be
:15:13. > :15:16.saying is those fiscal powers compared to being a devolved part
:15:16. > :15:23.of the United Kingdom, the difference would either be zero or
:15:23. > :15:29.not that much. It depends what happens to GP. We still haven't
:15:29. > :15:37.resolved this issue of oil and an oil fund. It might give us more
:15:37. > :15:41.money to spend all borrow against then you would normally have. All
:15:41. > :15:45.of the revenue goes into a fifth region of the UK, it doesn't get
:15:45. > :15:52.split, it goes straight to the Treasury. If we could reclaim some
:15:52. > :16:00.of that money here, we would have a lot more leeway. The other issue
:16:00. > :16:05.that is coming up is banking. It is unclear what the state of RBS is at
:16:05. > :16:09.the moment. It is partially nationalised. Do you think it is
:16:09. > :16:16.credible of Scotland became independent to have a bank like
:16:16. > :16:22.Abbey S whose assets are a multiple of Scotland's GDP, almost Icelandic
:16:22. > :16:26.rather than Irish. Is that credible? Or would it be better if
:16:26. > :16:31.it came out of nationalisation as a London based company? I think
:16:31. > :16:37.everybody wants to get it out of nationalisation. The top managers
:16:37. > :16:40.in the bank are all working to that regard. None of them like the
:16:40. > :16:44.Government being in ultimate control. It would be neater if it
:16:44. > :16:47.came out of nationalisation before it became a Scottish bank again.
:16:47. > :16:51.Would it become a Scottish bank again? I don't know. I don't see
:16:51. > :16:57.any reason why shouldn't. It could last for a great deal of time
:16:57. > :17:01.longer here. But the worry would be, and of course everyone will say,
:17:01. > :17:08.there will be new banking rules, this will never happen again. It
:17:08. > :17:16.might not in the short term, but look what happened between class
:17:16. > :17:20.steal it in the 1930s and in 1988. And if a company this size went
:17:20. > :17:25.down, there is no way an independent Scotland could do what
:17:25. > :17:29.the British government had done. would be very hard, I agree. And
:17:29. > :17:38.this is why, in amongst the volley of bank regulation there would be,
:17:38. > :17:45.you are right, we can never stop anything going wrong to some point,
:17:45. > :17:48.but it could be very successful, and you need to think about what
:17:48. > :17:58.rules we could put in here they could get most of these nets
:17:58. > :18:04.covered. The danger, the downside risk is cataclysmic. Yes, and we
:18:04. > :18:08.have to think, do we want and in incredibly dominant bank in
:18:08. > :18:13.Scotland, do we want smaller ones? There are banks and smaller
:18:13. > :18:17.countries that don't expose themselves internationally. Just
:18:17. > :18:22.not the one in our country! And the question is how do they get from...
:18:23. > :18:26.For example, the SNP seems to have, some would say, remarkably little
:18:27. > :18:30.say. It might be an argument for them to say, we don't want a huge
:18:30. > :18:34.bank like RBS. And they think that is a perfectly reasonable argument
:18:34. > :18:40.for somebody to make. The banking system in Scotland makes a lot of
:18:40. > :18:50.sense. It might not complete -- compete with City banker Schroders,
:18:50. > :18:54.
:18:54. > :18:58.but it could be more like many smaller banks around the world.
:18:58. > :19:01.None of the smaller banks are trying to gain to do the massive
:19:01. > :19:07.banking markets worldwide that are the has tried to get into. You are
:19:07. > :19:11.very sympathetic to the idea of independence for Scotland. Yes.
:19:11. > :19:15.do think there is a compelling argument. You can understand why a
:19:15. > :19:18.lot of people will think, you wanted us to vote for independence,
:19:18. > :19:24.to leave the UK and become a separate member of the European
:19:24. > :19:27.Union, United Nations, separate military. And the up side is that
:19:27. > :19:32.maybe we could have taxes that are a little bit different, and we
:19:32. > :19:38.might or might not be able to do a bit more of borrowing. Is the game
:19:38. > :19:43.really worth it? I tell you why I think it is worth it. You have to
:19:43. > :19:46.pop up a little minute from the economic argument, and ask do you
:19:46. > :19:53.want to be in control as you possibly can in this environment
:19:53. > :19:58.that we have, and have all of the decisions that you make about what
:19:58. > :20:04.is right to a country? I think that is right faster do. I want us to be
:20:05. > :20:08.able to decide, even within constraints, that the vulnerable in
:20:08. > :20:12.our society can ride on buses free and get free prescriptions, even
:20:12. > :20:21.though my neighbours and the South don't think that is a good idea.
:20:21. > :20:26.Yes, of course, attitudes to the vulnerable in society might change
:20:26. > :20:28.depending on whoever is in power in Britain. But that is almost a
:20:28. > :20:35.constituent sense of what Britishness means to many British
:20:35. > :20:41.citizens, at least since the Second World War. Britain is proud of its
:20:41. > :20:49.National Health Service. Britain is pride of the welfare state that was
:20:49. > :20:55.set-up in your namesake's stake - no relative! It is hardly a
:20:55. > :20:59.clincher. For me it is. I want to raise my own money and be allowed
:20:59. > :21:04.to spend it in the way I want to spend it. Does that mean sometimes
:21:04. > :21:08.we will be ahead of our neighbours and sometimes behind? Probably. But
:21:08. > :21:16.I would still rather be an independent person of that sort
:21:16. > :21:18.then be given a cheque by mum and dad and told to do my best.
:21:18. > :21:26.Beveridge, thank you very much indeed.
:21:26. > :21:32.Now a quick look at tomorrow's front pages.
:21:32. > :21:42.We look at the Scotsman, RBS handing out �800 million in bonuses,
:21:42. > :21:43.
:21:43. > :21:46.and a picture there of Marie Colvin. The Herald, and the Daily Telegraph,
:21:46. > :21:56.baby girls aborted no questions asked, that is their headline.
:21:56. > :22:04.
:22:04. > :22:07.Good evening. A cloudy, misty and mild night for many. With the the
:22:07. > :22:13.wind south-westerly, many of these western and southern parts will
:22:13. > :22:18.remain grey and damp throughout. Through the Midlands and into
:22:18. > :22:26.eastern parts of England, we could see sunny spells and temperatures
:22:26. > :22:31.reaching 16 or 17 Celsius. To the east of Dartmoor, we could see some
:22:31. > :22:38.sunnier breaks. But through the moors, it will remain misty and
:22:38. > :22:42.foggy all day. The same for the hills and mountains of Wales. They
:22:43. > :22:48.will see some patchy rain and drizzle. Northern Ireland will see
:22:48. > :22:52.some brightness in the east. The patchy rain and drizzle turns a bit
:22:52. > :22:58.heavier across the North West of Scotland. Warmer and brighter to
:22:58. > :23:01.the east. Things change across the North Thursday into Friday, but the
:23:01. > :23:08.temperatures drop. We will slowly sea temperatures drop because
:23:08. > :23:14.England and Wales, too. This comes from a cold front working its way