:00:12. > :00:15.leaving others to fight it out for Tonight on Newsnight Scotland., the
:00:15. > :00:19.first official pronouncement of the European Commission on what status
:00:19. > :00:21.an independent Scotland would have in the European Union. We will talk
:00:21. > :00:25.to the Catalan member of the European Parliament who have been
:00:25. > :00:31.pressing for answers. And if you do not want independence,
:00:31. > :00:33.then you can have devo-max, the new Scotland Bill, you can have Menzies
:00:33. > :00:37.Campbell's proposals from the Liberal Democrats or you can have
:00:37. > :00:40.whatever emerges from the civic Scotland campaign. And you can now
:00:40. > :00:45.have something called the Pope last, we will be asking what that might
:00:45. > :00:49.be and whether this is all getting a bit silly -- something called
:00:49. > :00:52.devo-max. There's been a debate going on for
:00:52. > :00:56.some while about what an independent Scotland would be in
:00:56. > :00:59.the European Union. Would it continue in membership or would
:01:00. > :01:02.Scotland have to apply for membership? In a moment I will be
:01:02. > :01:06.speaking to the Catalan member of the European Parliament tried to
:01:06. > :01:10.get answers from the European Commission that first here's David
:01:11. > :01:15.Allison. There is some flash photography in this report.
:01:15. > :01:18.Your Scotland, your referendum. Alex Salmond is casting a long
:01:18. > :01:23.shadow with his plans for an independence referendum in 2014.
:01:23. > :01:26.And interest from foreign media means impact has been felt well be
:01:26. > :01:30.on Scotland. When he held his press conference at Edinburgh Castle last
:01:30. > :01:34.month, to launch the SNP's administration consultation process,
:01:34. > :01:38.the First Minister was aware that countries such as Spain were paying
:01:38. > :01:42.particular interest to what he had to say.
:01:42. > :01:52.The media from Madrid would also be from the Basque region and
:01:52. > :01:57.Catalonia to report back what it Now a Catalan MP wants answers from
:01:57. > :02:01.the European Union. Ramon Tremosa, a liberal politician with a
:02:01. > :02:04.background in economics submitted a written question to the European
:02:05. > :02:14.Commission last month. In it, he points out that the UK has been
:02:15. > :02:28.
:02:28. > :02:33.part of the European Union since 19 Another person had the task of
:02:33. > :02:37.coming up with an answer from the European Commission and the rest of
:02:37. > :02:42.the UK as well as Scotland. He says the commission is not able to
:02:42. > :02:45.express any view given up the view and terms and result of any future
:02:45. > :02:48.referendum are known as is the nature of possible future
:02:48. > :02:58.relationships between the parties concerned and those parties and
:02:58. > :03:00.
:03:00. > :03:05.European Union partners. As a fairly non-committal response
:03:05. > :03:10.but does indicate that he and the President of the European
:03:10. > :03:14.Commission, Jose Manuel Barroso, say EU membership for Scotland as a
:03:14. > :03:18.political issue rather than constitutional. In the Catalan
:03:18. > :03:21.capital of Barcelona, the moves for a Scottish referendum and his
:03:21. > :03:24.impact across the EU were being closely watched while in the Basque
:03:24. > :03:29.country, tongue in cheek demands from pro-independence campaigners
:03:30. > :03:34.have prompted headlines like this even here in the Scottish media.
:03:34. > :03:44.Madrid it remains particularly wary although the Spanish Foreign
:03:44. > :03:46.
:03:46. > :03:51.Minister was quoted at the weekend He said that no one would object to
:03:51. > :03:54.consented independent of Scotland. But Spain recently did block moves
:03:55. > :03:58.by the former Yugoslavia Republic of Kosovo to get EU membership
:03:58. > :04:05.because it was based on a unilateral decision and so in
:04:05. > :04:09.Spanish eyes was completely different. Since the SNP won a
:04:09. > :04:14.majority, it has taken a while for Westminster to react. Now it
:04:14. > :04:18.appears that the union is starting to take notice.
:04:18. > :04:25.Just before we came on their eyes but to the Catalan MEP, Ramon
:04:25. > :04:30.Tremosa that you saw there. He is a member of the majority party in
:04:30. > :04:34.Catalonia. I began by asking him why he put this question to the EU
:04:34. > :04:41.Commission. There are a lot of parallels between Scotland and
:04:41. > :04:47.Catalonia. Like in Scotland, the opinion polls in Catalonia show
:04:47. > :04:53.increasing demand for independence. We have, depending on the polls,
:04:53. > :04:58.some give a 40% in favour but other polls give 50 present, 53% in
:04:58. > :05:03.favour of independence and it is a clear majority feeling in people.
:05:03. > :05:10.Unlike in Scotland, there is a huge majority, near 80% of cattle and
:05:10. > :05:14.population, which wants real, fiscal federalism. -- near 80% of
:05:14. > :05:22.the Catalan population. Collecting all the taxes and this includes all
:05:22. > :05:28.the Spanish speaking people in Catalonia so I think we follow all
:05:28. > :05:34.the debate and we admire how democracy exists in the United
:05:34. > :05:43.Kingdom. With a British Prime Minister accepting the referendum.
:05:43. > :05:47.Just to make clear to people, one of the issues in Spain is, as I
:05:47. > :05:53.understand, is it written into the constitution that people in
:05:53. > :05:59.Catalonia or the Basque country can not have a similar referendum?
:05:59. > :06:07.but this constitution was written just after Franco died. The
:06:07. > :06:12.military powers had a lot of employment -- had a lot of
:06:12. > :06:22.influence. The Basque country was not a prude and Catalonia existed
:06:22. > :06:24.
:06:24. > :06:30.in extension. -- the Basque country was not approved. This is why...
:06:30. > :06:35.Basically you put the question because you would like to know, as
:06:35. > :06:39.Catalans, should you have a similar vote what the situation would be of
:06:39. > :06:49.either Scotland or Catalonia should either of them decide to become
:06:49. > :06:54.independent? Yes, I wanted to intellectually know which would be
:06:54. > :06:59.the answer of the European Commission. And as I could foresee,
:06:59. > :07:03.at the European Commission said it was an internal issue of the United
:07:03. > :07:10.Kingdom and if they were aware of any change, the United Kingdom
:07:10. > :07:15.would make these steps necessary to deal with any situations. But I
:07:15. > :07:18.wanted to go because in Catalonia, lot of people ask me about this
:07:18. > :07:25.question so I put it to the commission. Are you satisfied with
:07:25. > :07:33.the answer? The commission has basically said to you, about what
:07:34. > :07:41.we don't really want to talk about this"! It is a polite and
:07:41. > :07:46.democratic answer. The commission... I think that in Europe, everybody
:07:46. > :07:53.knows that there will be a referendum in Scotland and if the
:07:53. > :07:59.Scottish people vote easily and democratically, for independence, I
:07:59. > :08:07.think that the rest of the European nations will accept a new state. So
:08:07. > :08:14.this is why I asked all the MEPs from the political parties and we
:08:14. > :08:22.are expecting... In Spain, I have doubts if the Spanish government
:08:22. > :08:25.would accept a majority demand from Catalans or Basque people. Thank
:08:25. > :08:32.you, it has been very interesting talking to you.
:08:32. > :08:37.Thank you. So we were just getting used to the term devo-max being
:08:37. > :08:42.bandied around and it led to a pressure group called Reform
:08:42. > :08:46.Scotland and they have a go at selling as a new type of devolution,
:08:46. > :08:50.devo-plus. Laura Bicker has been finding a out.
:08:50. > :08:54.Basic choice is a good thing but what if you have no idea what on
:08:55. > :08:59.earth you are choosing between? Devo-max or devo-plus. Do we know
:08:59. > :09:03.what either would mean for Scott and? Under devo-plus, we would have
:09:03. > :09:07.full control of income tax, corporation tax, plus some control
:09:07. > :09:11.over welfare benefit. Devo-max has not been properly defined but it is
:09:11. > :09:15.thought it would go further. We take on more welfare including
:09:15. > :09:20.pensions, VAT, and national insurance. The mandate from the
:09:20. > :09:24.people of the referendum is the best but just as tough and tax-
:09:24. > :09:29.raising powers. Back at the launch of a new devo-plus brand today, it
:09:29. > :09:32.seems not all the details have been nailed down. I pick the proposal
:09:32. > :09:36.has been worked out, that is not to say that it will not be flexible
:09:36. > :09:38.and changed going forward because we are getting lot of input from
:09:38. > :09:43.Treasury and others about the details of the proposals and we
:09:43. > :09:47.have to adapt. The broad philosophy is each level of government should
:09:47. > :09:51.be responsible for raising the money that it spends. Individuals
:09:51. > :09:55.from the Lib Dems, Tories and Labour have signed up although not
:09:55. > :09:59.for all of the proposals. I am fully signed-up to the principle.
:09:59. > :10:03.The overriding principle that each level of government should raise
:10:03. > :10:07.the taxes that it spends because I think that way we address the
:10:08. > :10:11.problem that Kenneth Calman identified, the lack of it
:10:11. > :10:16.accountability. And they don't intend for the question of devo-
:10:16. > :10:19.plus to be put to the people. have had a referendum on tax powers
:10:19. > :10:23.for the Scottish Parliament. What devo-plus is about is extending
:10:23. > :10:27.that. I think this question has been answered by people across
:10:27. > :10:30.Scotland. They want to see their Palmer put more responsibility,
:10:30. > :10:34.they want to see politicians doing things more responsibly. I think
:10:34. > :10:38.the question has been dealt with. The Scots have heard a lot about
:10:38. > :10:40.greater devolution over the past few weeks. The Prime Minister David
:10:40. > :10:45.Cameron at the former Labour Chancellor Alistair Darling both
:10:45. > :10:48.talked about giving more powers to Scotland. But outside of devo-max
:10:48. > :10:51.and devo-plus, you have the Scotland Development -- the
:10:51. > :10:55.Scotland Bill making his way through Westminster and the
:10:56. > :11:01.nationalists campaigning for independence. Choice can be a good
:11:01. > :11:04.thing. But is this constitutional choice just a bit confusing? And
:11:04. > :11:14.anyway, it's not even clear that the Scot would get a chance to
:11:14. > :11:19.
:11:19. > :11:23.With me is the leader of devo plus. And that share of the Scotland Bill
:11:23. > :11:31.Committee. Jeremy Purvis, what are you proposing it should be done?
:11:31. > :11:38.You do not want a referendum. group is not seeking it. What do
:11:38. > :11:45.you want? We want to persuade the political parties to adopt the
:11:45. > :11:50.proposals we have outlined. That is a clear aim. You would say the vote
:11:50. > :11:59.no to independence but you would hope to be able to say one or more
:11:59. > :12:07.of the political parties have adopted your plan. We are hoping to
:12:07. > :12:12.go further as a group. We can have a cross-party view and see if there
:12:12. > :12:17.is a consensus for additional powers for the Scottish Parliament
:12:17. > :12:27.to address a real fault line... are still in the Liberal Democrats?
:12:27. > :12:28.
:12:28. > :12:33.I am. Are you hoping to convince them? Each party has its own
:12:33. > :12:39.process and they will come to their own views. We wish to inform the
:12:39. > :12:44.debate. We want to the parties to adopt the proposal. I would love it
:12:44. > :12:49.to be if I have a vote in the referendum, I will vote no to
:12:49. > :12:55.independence but I want that to be a vote for change. I hope they can
:12:55. > :13:05.be a consensus for that. According to the Scotsman, best MP backs devo
:13:05. > :13:07.
:13:07. > :13:13.plus. Your party loves this? -- SMP. A party is clear. We stand for
:13:13. > :13:17.independence. You are also abjectly desperate for a second question to
:13:17. > :13:22.be in the referendum because you know that is what people want.
:13:22. > :13:26.stand for independence... It is nonsense you want eight-second
:13:26. > :13:31.question. We want the single question because we believe in
:13:31. > :13:35.independence. We have said everyone in Scotland have a view, there is a
:13:35. > :13:41.consultation, people should respond to the consultation. We will look
:13:41. > :13:46.at what people are saying. That is clear. What is not is what these
:13:46. > :13:50.parties are now dealing with devo plus. There are questions in there.
:13:50. > :13:58.They do not know whether they want a second question. He has just said
:13:58. > :14:03.he does and that one! I have heard other reports. -- and doesn't want
:14:03. > :14:11.one. If the position of devo plus and not to have a second question?
:14:11. > :14:16.The group is not seeking one. sounds to me like it is putting it
:14:16. > :14:20.off. Are we have heard it all before. We heard it in the 1970s.
:14:20. > :14:25.It took us 20 years to get our Scottish Parliament. The debate is
:14:25. > :14:29.on and it is about whether Scotland should be independent. People can
:14:29. > :14:34.contribute. Let me read you a paragraph. They have learnt a
:14:34. > :14:40.strong body of opinion are lined up behind devo plus and the First
:14:40. > :14:45.Minister could agree to include a referendum -- that in the
:14:45. > :14:50.referendum. The First Minister has always said the consultation is
:14:50. > :14:54.there, people can contribute, if they have a large body of opinion
:14:54. > :15:01.coming up from six Scotland that a second question could be considered,
:15:01. > :15:07.it would be considered. You may have Alex Salmond on your side, or
:15:07. > :15:16.at least that the new. What about David Cameron? According to the
:15:16. > :15:22.Scotsman, he was. I bet you're glad you are left -- you asked your seat.
:15:22. > :15:30.-- Young lost. People should be making a clear choice. We hope as a
:15:30. > :15:35.group of the choice between independence and devo max -- devo
:15:35. > :15:40.plus. That is why we are hoping that the parties will look at this.
:15:40. > :15:44.There will be a set of proposals. It is not just about... I can
:15:44. > :15:51.appreciate a level of confusion may exist but that is why we have
:15:51. > :15:56.established this, to be specific. Are you sure about what you are
:15:56. > :16:03.watching for? One of the implications of the policies or the
:16:03. > :16:08.policies you are outlining -- the proposals, is to do with the
:16:08. > :16:18.British welfare system. There is no constitutional reason why a winter
:16:18. > :16:18.
:16:18. > :16:24.fuel payments should be reserved by it the Treasury. Under your
:16:24. > :16:29.proposals, as you know, the welfare system... Pensions will continue to
:16:29. > :16:39.be reserved for Westminster. Scotland is doing badly compared to
:16:39. > :16:40.
:16:40. > :16:48.the UK, UK taxpayers will continue through the benefits system.
:16:48. > :16:58.Correct. That is a pretty important benefit. Does the 8th MP want to
:16:58. > :17:02.disband the UK benefits system? -- SNP. You need to have the palace to
:17:02. > :17:07.do it the best for the citizens. To say you are not going to include
:17:07. > :17:10.pensions and to say the welfare system does not tie in with the tax
:17:10. > :17:15.raising powers, I think that is creating problems. You see the
:17:15. > :17:21.force of a point? One of the benefits of the UK is when
:17:21. > :17:27.particular parts are doing badly, just as in the US, the whole of the
:17:27. > :17:32.UK automatically through the benefits system, money is shovelled
:17:32. > :17:36.into areas doing badly. In an independent Scotland, you would not
:17:36. > :17:43.have that. A Scotland that was doing badly -- badly would have to
:17:43. > :17:48.subsist on tax revenues. independent Scotland would be a
:17:48. > :17:53.normal country, same as many other countries in Europe. It would take
:17:53. > :17:57.its own in decisions to the benefit of citizens. There is no reason why
:17:57. > :18:04.Scotland would do badly. Scotland is doing better than the UK at the
:18:04. > :18:08.moment. Why do you think that is wrong? I think the way the UK
:18:08. > :18:12.operates provides a risk and benefit system. When it goes well,
:18:12. > :18:18.Scotland shares that but if there are difficulties, there can be
:18:18. > :18:26.equalisation across the UK. Offaly, that is the benefit of being in the
:18:26. > :18:36.UK. -- obviously. The F MP want to tell us they are not breaking up
:18:36. > :18:37.
:18:38. > :18:45.the UK, it is a social union. -- SMP. We maintain social union.
:18:45. > :18:51.does that mean? It is about being good neighbours. He does not mean
:18:51. > :18:55.anything at all, then? I think the reality of this discussion is at
:18:55. > :19:00.the Scottish National Party, if they had not won a good majority,
:19:00. > :19:09.are we not be having this discussion. People would be trying
:19:09. > :19:13.to kill devolution. Why not put your question... I know there are
:19:13. > :19:19.problems with devolution but why not stick something on a
:19:19. > :19:29.referendum? If you are a unionist and you want to shoot the Scottish
:19:29. > :19:34.Nationalist Party, why not? It was nine years ago that David Steel
:19:34. > :19:39.really is these issues. I wrote a paper on having more powers. This
:19:39. > :19:46.predates the Scottish National Party coming to office her in 2007.
:19:46. > :19:56.There are those who believe the party should be stronger. --
:19:56. > :19:56.
:19:56. > :20:05.apartment. That is why we believe in the case for devo plus. A look
:20:05. > :20:11.at tomorrow's papers. In the Daily Mail... Chris Huhne will pocket the
:20:11. > :20:16.money despite being at the first Cabinet minister to be forced from
:20:16. > :20:25.office. At the Guardian, activists killed in rescue of British
:20:25. > :20:35.journalist from Syria. The Independent, hip replacements. That
:20:35. > :20:45.
:20:45. > :20:51.For most of Oz, Tuesday was a cloudy but mild day, particularly
:20:51. > :20:55.across the East. -- most of us. Most of us will have a grey start
:20:56. > :21:00.tomorrow. Things will brighten up in the afternoon. In the north-east
:21:00. > :21:09.of England, they will see decent breaks. Temperatures will lift to
:21:09. > :21:13.14 degrees. It will stay cloudy for East Anglia. You could see brighter
:21:13. > :21:21.spells later. The best of the brakes are likely further west. Are
:21:21. > :21:28.a much sunnier day for south-west England. There are sunny spells.
:21:28. > :21:31.Temperatures reached 11 degrees. In Northern Ireland, a similar day to
:21:31. > :21:41.yesterday. Western Scotland keeps the blagged of cloud with a few
:21:41. > :21:42.
:21:42. > :21:47.spots of rain. Staying rather cloudy for most of us, particularly
:21:47. > :21:57.in the morning. Things will turn writable stop in London,
:21:57. > :21:58.