:00:07. > :00:11.will make Quemoy disjointed, not more joined-up. -- it will make
:00:11. > :00:14.care more disjointed. Tonight on Newsnight Scotland: The Justice
:00:14. > :00:16.Secretary once again denies he urged the Lockerbie bomber to drop
:00:16. > :00:19.his appeal in return for compassionate release, but his
:00:19. > :00:23.statement leaves many still asking questions about why he was allowed
:00:23. > :00:27.to go home. And a constructive meeting or
:00:27. > :00:29.inappropriate and ill-advised? We weigh up the First Minister's
:00:29. > :00:32.latest rendez-vous with Rupert Murdoch.
:00:32. > :00:35.Good evening. The Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill told the Scottish
:00:35. > :00:38.parliament this afternoon that he would have freed Abdel Basset Al-
:00:38. > :00:43.Megrahi even if he had pressed ahead with a second appeal against
:00:43. > :00:45.his conviction. In response to claims made in a book earlier this
:00:45. > :00:49.week, Mr MacAskill insisted the Scottish government had no interest
:00:49. > :00:54.in the decision to abandon the legal action. He added that he
:00:54. > :01:01.would be entirely comfortable with any future appeal. Here's David
:01:01. > :01:06.Allison. August 2009, the Justice Secretary
:01:06. > :01:10.Kenny MacAskill visits the Lockerbie bomber at Greening prison.
:01:10. > :01:14.The talk is over Abdel Basset Al- Megrahi been freed to return to
:01:14. > :01:21.Libya, through the prisoner transport scheme or compassionate
:01:21. > :01:26.release because he has cancer. Kenny MacAskill also had
:01:26. > :01:31.conversations with the man shaking hands with McGraw he. It is what
:01:31. > :01:35.was allegedly said in a private moment between the Scottish Justice
:01:35. > :01:40.Secretary and the Libyan minister which is significant part of a new
:01:40. > :01:46.book giving Al-Megrahi's version of events. He said the minister told
:01:46. > :01:52.him he had had a conversation in private with Kenny MacAskill and he
:01:52. > :01:56.indicated it would be easy to grant Al-Megrahi compassionate release is
:01:56. > :02:04.the Minister dropped his appeal. He was not claiming he made that as a
:02:04. > :02:10.demand. The Justice Secretary has insisted nothing untoward was
:02:10. > :02:15.discussed, either with the Libyan minister or Al-Megrahi himself, and
:02:16. > :02:20.he reiterated his point today. These claims are wrong. Minutes of
:02:21. > :02:25.meetings related to it were made at the time and have, except with the
:02:25. > :02:30.mission was not given by other governments, been published. The
:02:30. > :02:34.minutes of my meeting with Libyan representatives is one of them.
:02:34. > :02:40.These minutes are not here say, unlike the claims, but an accurate
:02:40. > :02:47.record made at the time. These minutes have been in the public
:02:47. > :02:51.domain since September 2009. In addition to the minutes kept, let
:02:51. > :02:58.me be clear. Scottish government officials were present throughout
:02:58. > :03:04.my meeting with the Libyan minister. At no time did I or any other
:03:04. > :03:08.member of the Scottish government suggest to him, to anyone connected
:03:08. > :03:14.with the Libyan government, or indeed to Mr Al-Megrahi himself
:03:14. > :03:17.that abandoning his appeal against conviction would in any way aid or
:03:17. > :03:24.affect his application for compassionate release. Lewis
:03:24. > :03:29.Macdonald. Does he now accept that his conversations with both Mr Al-
:03:29. > :03:32.Megrahi and the Libyan minister did indeed leave both men with the very
:03:32. > :03:38.clear impression that withdrawing the appeal was the prudent thing to
:03:38. > :03:48.do? Does he now regret either of those meetings and the way in which
:03:48. > :03:52.he handled them? No. The attack did not just come from Labour. The
:03:52. > :03:56.Scottish Conservatives used SNP backbenches words against Kenny
:03:56. > :04:01.MacAskill. The allegation made in this book is the same allegation
:04:01. > :04:06.previously made by Christine Grahame MSP, who said that she had
:04:07. > :04:12.been told this very self-same thing by a whistleblower in the Scottish
:04:12. > :04:18.Executive. To that extent, one allegation corroborates the other.
:04:18. > :04:23.But according to Christine Grahame, Al-Megrahi had decided to drop his
:04:23. > :04:30.appeal will before the August 2009 meetings. For my family's sake, I
:04:30. > :04:35.decided I must choose prisoner transfer and on 23rd March are
:04:35. > :04:40.assigned an undertaking to abandon the appeal. That considerably
:04:40. > :04:44.predates any memos and anything said in his safe. These are direct
:04:44. > :04:48.words from Al-Megrahi. Kenny MacAskill said he would have
:04:48. > :04:53.released him even if he had not dropped his appeal but the Libyan
:04:53. > :04:57.boiler fire stands by his claims. Kenny MacAskill made a ludicrous
:04:57. > :05:03.point that a private conversation would have been minuted, that is
:05:03. > :05:07.irrelevant, they would not have been. Al-Megrahi's decision to
:05:07. > :05:11.abandon his appeal certainly lower the temperature surrounding his
:05:11. > :05:15.controversial possible release from his prison cell at Greenock Prison,
:05:15. > :05:18.and that in turn made the subsequent decision by the Justice
:05:18. > :05:23.Secretary Kenny MacAskill to release him on compassionate
:05:23. > :05:26.grounds slightly more palatable. But over two years after his
:05:27. > :05:33.compassionate release because of terminal illness, the fact that the
:05:33. > :05:37.only man convicted of the Lockerbie bombing is to live means many
:05:37. > :05:40.details of this case remains highly contentious.
:05:40. > :05:43.We did ask the Justice Secretary to appear on tonight's programme, but
:05:43. > :05:47.he declined. I'm joined from Oxford by Dr Jim Swire, whose daughter
:05:47. > :05:52.Flora died in the atrocity. Dr Jim Swire, in a way you think this
:05:52. > :05:58.whole issue of who said what to whom is a bit of a sideshow? I do,
:05:58. > :06:03.yes. I think it is a sideshow to a sideshow because I think the whole
:06:03. > :06:09.story about Libya being involved in Lockerbie is probably a sideshow in
:06:09. > :06:14.itself. It doesn't seem to me that any of the evidence points in that
:06:14. > :06:20.direction holds up. If you look elsewhere in Mr Ashton's book, you
:06:20. > :06:23.will see he produces evidence which shows that their famous fragment,
:06:23. > :06:28.which purported to suggest that Al- Megrahi uses sophisticated digital
:06:28. > :06:32.timer, thus enabling him to initiate the bombing route from
:06:32. > :06:38.more top all the way around through Heathrow to Lockerbie, that
:06:38. > :06:41.fragment was not made in the same way as the circuit boards of the
:06:41. > :06:46.timers which the prosecution allege has been used. That allegation can
:06:46. > :06:53.be subjected to objective scientific investigation and has
:06:53. > :06:56.been, and as was shown in a recent TV documentary, and I think one of
:06:56. > :07:02.the most appalling things about that allegation, again if you look
:07:02. > :07:07.in the book you will see that there is a memo which Mr Ashdown obtained
:07:07. > :07:14.access to which shows that the Scottish police force was given the
:07:14. > :07:19.information about the discrepancy over the fragment of the time there
:07:19. > :07:23.in 1999. It only got into the hands of the defence shortly before Mr
:07:23. > :07:28.Al-Megrahi was allowed home to Tripoli and I want to know why it
:07:28. > :07:33.all those years went by when that information, which would have been
:07:33. > :07:38.crucial and destructive to the case against Al-Megrahi, was concealed
:07:38. > :07:42.somewhere within either the police echelons or the Crown Office, and
:07:42. > :07:45.not passed to the defence? This is in line with other allegations that
:07:45. > :07:51.were made particularly with respect to the break in evidence at
:07:51. > :07:56.Heathrow, which again appears to have been concealed somewhere...
:07:56. > :08:04.Just to make this clear. The significance you think of the
:08:04. > :08:10.evidence in the book and the documentary is that some of this
:08:10. > :08:15.new information should have been available at the original trial?
:08:15. > :08:20.What do you think that if there was information that showed that a key
:08:20. > :08:23.item of forensic evidence was bogus and that the prosecution was given
:08:23. > :08:28.information confirming this, and then failed to pass it to the
:08:28. > :08:31.defence, that that was just a little bit unfair in terms of a
:08:31. > :08:36.level playing field that the Scottish criminal law is supposed
:08:36. > :08:42.to be providing? It goes along with the UN special Observer's comments
:08:42. > :08:48.on Mistral, which was that it was grossly unfair and unrecognisable
:08:48. > :08:53.as justice -- on this trial. How much of it lies with the police and
:08:53. > :08:58.how much with the Crown Office, I do not claim to know. The problem
:08:58. > :09:03.with you and the people who support your arguments is way you take them.
:09:03. > :09:07.You have today written to the Prime Minister asking for a meeting.
:09:07. > :09:12.Should you get that meeting, what will you be asking David Cameron to
:09:12. > :09:16.do? One of the things I will be asking him to do is similar to what
:09:16. > :09:22.we are talking about tonight. I would be asking him to look at the
:09:22. > :09:27.minutes and the records because in 1988, when Lockerbie happened,
:09:27. > :09:30.Margaret Thatcher was Prime Minister and in January 1989 the
:09:30. > :09:35.Metropolitan Police interviewed the guy who had found the break-in at
:09:35. > :09:40.Heathrow and yet that evidence was clearly surprised and was have
:09:40. > :09:44.known until after the verdict had been reached against Al-Megrahi.
:09:44. > :09:48.Now, why was the evidence accumulated by the Metropolitan
:09:48. > :09:53.Police not pass to the Scottish police had to go over the
:09:53. > :10:00.investigation? Or was it passed to them and debate suppress it? I do
:10:00. > :10:04.not know. Would you like to say to the Prime Minister, more than read
:10:04. > :10:09.some documents? Are you asking him to launch a UK government public
:10:09. > :10:14.inquiry? That is a very good question. It is not what I would be
:10:14. > :10:18.asking him to do first. I think we should start with an investigation
:10:18. > :10:24.initiated hopefully by the Scottish government because they have the
:10:24. > :10:29.power to initiate an inquiry into this verdict and that inquiry could
:10:29. > :10:32.cover both the activities of the Crown Office and the activities of
:10:32. > :10:40.the Scottish police force around the investigation and it would be
:10:40. > :10:45.much more difficult to expect a Westminster based inquiry... But
:10:45. > :10:49.these are issues which could be a dress from it in Scotland and I
:10:49. > :10:54.think it is well past time that someone took a bold step and set up
:10:54. > :10:59.such an inquiry. That is what is requested by the justice for Al-
:10:59. > :11:08.Megrahi Group, whose petition is currently in front of the Justice
:11:08. > :11:12.Commission at Hollywood. I -- Holyrood. I imagine you thought it
:11:12. > :11:17.was interesting that Kenny MacAskill leaving open the idea
:11:17. > :11:25.that the Al-Megrahi appeal could be continued, even after Al-Megrahi
:11:25. > :11:29.dives. That is not a new concept for us. Professor Robert Black, who
:11:29. > :11:33.most people concerned with this verdict will know about, has
:11:33. > :11:38.advised me that in the event that Al-Megrahi does die, his family
:11:38. > :11:43.would be first on the list of people who would be considered to
:11:43. > :11:47.in allowing the resumption of or a new appeal to take place and they
:11:47. > :11:52.have to decide whether that appeal would be in the public interest,
:11:52. > :11:56.and I think the family would have the first call. If the family did
:11:56. > :12:01.not want to do that, people like me who have tragic involvement in this
:12:01. > :12:06.terrible case might well apply to the Serc ourselves, but these
:12:06. > :12:11.things will take a lot of time. Much quicker for the Scottish
:12:11. > :12:14.government to take the matter in hand and say, we will have a
:12:14. > :12:18.Scottish-based inquiry, an objective inquiry into why all
:12:18. > :12:22.these aspects of the information that should have been shed was not
:12:22. > :12:26.shared, and I think that will be sufficient to overturn the verdict.
:12:26. > :12:28.Thank you. Now, the big news from News
:12:28. > :12:32.International today was the departure of James Murdoch from his
:12:32. > :12:42.father's newspaper empire. We can go one better. Rupert Murdoch
:12:42. > :12:52.himself was in Scotland today, These pictures are of a previous
:12:52. > :12:54.
:12:54. > :12:57.meeting. Today's event at Bute House was a private affair. Rupert
:12:57. > :13:05.Murdoch described Alex Salmond as the most brilliant politician in
:13:05. > :13:08.the UK. Relationships have swung to and fro over the last 20 years, but
:13:08. > :13:16.a saint -- seemed to have settled in a position of mutual respect
:13:16. > :13:26.recently. The Sunday Sun has an editorial attitude more open to
:13:26. > :13:28.
:13:28. > :13:32.Scottish independence than any of the other Scottish newspapers.
:13:32. > :13:36.Perhaps Mr Murdoch is feeling the pull of his Scottish roots. Perhaps
:13:36. > :13:41.he feels a political dalliance with the prospect of a low-tax
:13:41. > :13:44.environment in Scotland would send a suitable message to the other big
:13:44. > :13:47.beasts in London. We did invite the SNP to take part
:13:47. > :13:52.in a discussion, but they declined saying that it would be
:13:52. > :13:56.inappropriate to comment on what was a private meeting. I am joined
:13:56. > :14:00.by the political strategist formally for the SNP Ewan Crawford,
:14:00. > :14:08.and labour's Willie Bain from Westminster. White you have a
:14:08. > :14:12.problem with this? Good evening. I find it extraordinary that an
:14:12. > :14:15.organisation which is subject to two judicial legs -- inquiries for
:14:15. > :14:20.alleged criminal behaviour is getting advanced knowledge and
:14:20. > :14:24.details of the date of a referendum about Scotland's constitutional
:14:24. > :14:28.future when they should be given to the Scottish people and Scotland's
:14:28. > :14:34.elected politicians first. I think most people think is wrong that the
:14:34. > :14:38.SNP treated this important matter in this way and I think they are
:14:38. > :14:44.suspicious about the cosy chats and dealings that are going on between
:14:44. > :14:49.the SNP and Rupert Murdoch. Cosy chats and cosy dealing? New Labour
:14:49. > :14:53.have several world records at cosying up to the world's --
:14:53. > :14:57.Murdoch empire. Most people in the country are disgusted with the way
:14:57. > :15:05.that these revelations about Milly Dowler and the other serial phone
:15:05. > :15:10.hacking that has been dying on have come out. There are over 6,000
:15:10. > :15:17.instances of phone hacking being investigated by the police. The
:15:17. > :15:20.accusations of bribery with the police. Hang on. You are saying it
:15:20. > :15:24.is all right for the Labour Party to cosy up to Murdoch before this,
:15:24. > :15:30.but not all right now? People want to see clear roles put in place
:15:30. > :15:34.about how much of the newspaper Industry, the TV and radio sector,
:15:34. > :15:38.a single company can own. Alex Salmond would have done better
:15:38. > :15:43.today to have hauled in Rupert Murdoch and shown leadership that
:15:43. > :15:50.Ed Miliband and Harriet Harman have done in calling for a change of
:15:50. > :15:54.leadership. Do you think Alex Salmond was wise to do is? It was
:15:54. > :15:58.not fantastic timing today, given some of the events that have gone
:15:58. > :16:03.on and some of the allegations that have been made, but there are two
:16:03. > :16:07.separate things here. 1, appalling behaviour by some journalists who
:16:07. > :16:11.are -- were employed by a News International. Everyone agrees that
:16:11. > :16:15.was appalling and it will have ramifications for the whole of the
:16:15. > :16:21.newspaper industry. On the other hand, they are legitimate
:16:21. > :16:24.businesses. Sky employs 6,000 people in Scotland. As I understand
:16:24. > :16:28.it, Rupert Murdoch asked for this meeting to talk about further
:16:28. > :16:32.investment. Surely the First Minister could have got a cheap
:16:33. > :16:37.headline and said that he was a going to meet Wigan Murdoch. On the
:16:37. > :16:44.other hand, it seems reasonable to me that a major employer, one of
:16:44. > :16:47.Scotland's biggest employers, was to discuss further air Investment -
:16:47. > :16:57.- wants to discuss further investment, if you shut the door on
:16:57. > :17:01.him, that would be odd. A lot of the meetings between, you know,
:17:01. > :17:05.they were SMER and a sign. We put their bodies during the back door
:17:05. > :17:10.at Downing Street. This was quite open. You could set -- shout at
:17:10. > :17:16.Alex Salmond for being bad. Hold on. The whole issue last summer was
:17:16. > :17:21.that the public and Parliament were at one that Rupert Murdoch should
:17:21. > :17:30.not be allowed to take over sky. Achieve it -- if he was there to
:17:30. > :17:35.talk about Sky... He is talking about jobs! The point that Willie
:17:35. > :17:40.Bain is making is that we deponent -- Rupert Murdoch is not in a
:17:40. > :17:43.position to do that. He is a major shareholder in that country. You're
:17:43. > :17:51.talking about last summer, the whole Westminster village was in
:17:51. > :17:55.uproar about Rupert Murdoch. It not stop many of your colleagues going
:17:55. > :18:04.to a summer party on a social occasion, not a business are --
:18:04. > :18:08.acacia. Less sector money please. Get real! The public is disgusted.
:18:08. > :18:14.Not so disgusted that the embargo and enjoy Rupert Murdoch's
:18:14. > :18:18.champagne. What we need to seek is a change in the media ownership in
:18:19. > :18:23.this country. I do not disagree. News International has been engaged
:18:23. > :18:26.in criminality because their own too much of the media. That is why
:18:27. > :18:36.Ed Miliband and Harriet Harman are right to call for change in
:18:36. > :18:40.ownership. If I could get a word in edgeways! The bottom line here is
:18:40. > :18:44.that Alex Salmond might get some flak for this. But there is a
:18:44. > :18:50.bigger prize. If he can convince the Murdoch newspapers to support
:18:50. > :18:57.his campaign for independence in the referendum, everyone will Cedex
:18:57. > :19:01.the row that Willie Bain is going to stirrup. The game for him is
:19:01. > :19:04.enormous. As I understand it, that was not discussed at all. I am not
:19:04. > :19:14.naive enough to think that, yes, politicians of all political
:19:14. > :19:16.
:19:16. > :19:19.parties, I think Willie Bain is using it -- every political party.
:19:19. > :19:24.I do not blame the Labour Party for cosying up to News International
:19:24. > :19:27.over the last 20 years. Of course political party seek media
:19:28. > :19:31.endorsements. That is the reality. As I understand it, that had
:19:31. > :19:35.nothing to do with the meeting today, which was about the
:19:35. > :19:41.thousands of people who are employed in Scotland. It is a
:19:41. > :19:45.complete coincidence then that Murdoch has been tweeting about how
:19:45. > :19:50.fantastic Alex Salmond is? As I understand it, Murdoch are
:19:50. > :19:57.requested the meeting, not Alex Salmond. I genuinely think they are
:19:57. > :20:00.not connected. Would it be a blow to Labour if Salmon's -- the
:20:00. > :20:06.Scottish Sun supported independence? They are entitled to
:20:06. > :20:16.take their own view. I do not deny they are. I asked whether you think
:20:16. > :20:17.
:20:18. > :20:21.it would damage your point of view? I think what is interesting today...
:20:21. > :20:24.When we have one in four young people in Scotland, one would hope
:20:24. > :20:28.the First Minister would be talking about a plan for youth unemployment
:20:28. > :20:32.instead of speaking with big business about a corporation tax
:20:32. > :20:37.could. I think that says a lot about the nature of the Scotland at
:20:37. > :20:41.Alex Salmond is trying to create. Briefly. I mean that. The Labour
:20:41. > :20:44.Party boasted about corporation tax codes, but when it comes to the SNP,
:20:44. > :20:50.it is unacceptable. A quick look at tomorrow's front
:20:50. > :20:55.pages: One in 10 Scots to be jobless by the end appear in the
:20:55. > :21:00.Scotsman. That is according to a report.
:21:00. > :21:05.The Financial Times. James Murdoch, we have just been talking about him.
:21:05. > :21:08.He has quit News International. The Guardian, government U-turn on
:21:08. > :21:11.the work scheme. That is about whether it should be compulsory on
:21:11. > :21:21.Oct. That is all we have time for
:21:21. > :21:26.
:21:26. > :21:30.tonight. And back tomorrow night. Good evening. A cooler start
:21:30. > :21:32.tomorrow than the last few days. There will be some frost in the
:21:33. > :21:37.There will be some frost in the Midlands and East. It will brighten
:21:37. > :21:44.up throughout the day. We will see sunny spells in their areas. There
:21:44. > :21:50.will be a lot of cloud. In the Pennines and the Midlands and the
:21:50. > :21:55.South, the cloud starts to break and we will see sunny spells. It
:21:55. > :22:01.will be another mild stay with winds, temperatures peaking at 16
:22:01. > :22:08.Celsius. Sun in the South West and Wales. A bit cloudier on the
:22:08. > :22:10.western coast. We could see some showers across Snowdonia. In the
:22:10. > :22:16.South and South East of Northern Ireland, it is bright and sunny,
:22:16. > :22:20.but in the North West, rain putsches in dread the day. Some of
:22:20. > :22:24.the patchy rain pushes into parts of Scotland, with a drop in
:22:24. > :22:30.temperature. That rain tends to fizzle out. We hold on to a lot of
:22:30. > :22:40.cat mac for Friday. Temperatures drop on Thursday. There is a lot
:22:40. > :22:41.