:00:12. > :00:15.Tonight on Newsnight Scotland: The Scottish Labour leader says she
:00:15. > :00:18.ants Eric Joyce to resign if there's any truth in allegations
:00:18. > :00:23.about his private life, allegations he denies. But does Johan Lamont
:00:23. > :00:25.have any power to get her way? Also, 33 years to the day after the
:00:25. > :00:30.first devolution referendum, the great and the good hold yet another
:00:31. > :00:35.meeting about more devolution. But is there any point in all this?
:00:35. > :00:38.Good evening. The Scottish Labour leader Johann Lamont has called for
:00:38. > :00:43.the Falkirk MP Eric Joyce to step down after newspaper reports that
:00:43. > :00:48.he'd had a relationship with a 17- year-old party worker. Mr Joyce has
:00:48. > :00:51.denied the allegations and said he will be taking legal advice. The MP
:00:51. > :00:58.has already been suspended from Labour as he's facing assault
:00:58. > :01:02.charges following an incident in a House of Commons bar last week.
:01:02. > :01:11.This morning the Daily Redcoat, traditionally pro-Labour, claims
:01:11. > :01:18.every Joyce had an affair with a schoolgirl who was then 17. The
:01:18. > :01:28.Labour leader is reported to have been incandescent when she read
:01:28. > :01:31.
:01:31. > :01:37.this. She said if this is true, he is unfit to be an MP. Johann Lamont
:01:37. > :01:40.has no powers to force him to step down as an MP. This afternoon, the
:01:40. > :01:45.Evening Standard in London said Eric Joyce had called them to say
:01:45. > :01:50.the story was not true and that he would be taking legal advice. The
:01:50. > :01:54.MP has already been suspended from the Labour Party. He has been
:01:54. > :02:04.charged with three counts of common assault following an incident at a
:02:04. > :02:20.
:02:20. > :02:25.House of Commons bar last week. A Eric Joyce won Falkirk for Labour
:02:25. > :02:28.in a by-election 12 years ago. His majority in 2010 was nearly 8,000.
:02:28. > :02:36.I'm joined now by Ian Macwhirter in Edinburgh, and Professor John
:02:36. > :02:43.Curtice. John, Johann Lamont says if there is any truth in this, she
:02:43. > :02:48.wants Eric Joyce to go. Does she have any power to enforce that?
:02:48. > :02:52.A political party can withdraw the whip from an MP, it can say it is
:02:52. > :02:58.not willing to allow that MP to be nominated for the next general
:02:58. > :03:03.election, which is not until 2015 from Eric Joyce, but it cannot
:03:03. > :03:07.force an MP to resign. An MP is effectively safe inside the House
:03:07. > :03:13.of Commons unless they are convicted of a criminal offence and
:03:13. > :03:19.receive a prison sentence of more than 12 months. And in that case,
:03:19. > :03:24.it is in effect parliament that is forcing the resignation was mag yes,
:03:24. > :03:28.and Parliament itself can take individual sanctions against an MP.
:03:28. > :03:33.A number of MPs have been temporarily suspended because they
:03:33. > :03:38.have broken the law, so David Laws for example, when allegations about
:03:38. > :03:42.his expenses were revealed and he was suspended from membership of
:03:42. > :03:46.the House of Commons. But a political party cannot force an MP
:03:46. > :03:52.to resign from Parliament as long as that Parliament remains in
:03:52. > :03:56.existence. One of the things that is interesting about this is the
:03:56. > :04:00.strength of the statement from Johann Lamont. It has been echoed
:04:00. > :04:05.by a statement from Ed Miliband tonight. Johann Lamont is the first
:04:05. > :04:11.leader of the Scottish Labour Party who is responsible for MPs as well
:04:11. > :04:16.as MSPs. Yes. This is her first test if you like as leader, and
:04:16. > :04:22.first test of Labour's first rule Scottish leader, so she has to take
:04:22. > :04:26.a very firm line. He has to be forced out one way or the other.
:04:26. > :04:31.Constitutionally, he is there by virtue of the fact he was elected
:04:31. > :04:36.by his constituents, not because he is a member of a political party,
:04:36. > :04:40.but party leaders can exert considerable pressure on errant MPs.
:04:40. > :04:47.This is part of a long and ignoble tradition of parliamentary
:04:47. > :04:52.misbehaviour by Labour MPs, going back through Mike fire, Watson,
:04:53. > :04:57.actor Ron Brown in 1992. He went through a catalogue of
:04:57. > :05:03.parliamentary misdemeanours and was eventually non-selected and he was
:05:03. > :05:07.defeated at the subsequent election. They are frozen out. Tonight, a
:05:07. > :05:13.spokesman for Ed Miliband said that if true, their allegations were
:05:13. > :05:19.shocking and disgraceful and fell short of the conduct expected of an
:05:19. > :05:25.MP. I suppose in a way, Johann Lamont would have rather liked him
:05:25. > :05:29.to say, I defer to Johann Lamont's judgment on this. Yes, this is the
:05:29. > :05:33.first test of whether a Labour Scottish leader is the genuine
:05:33. > :05:38.leader of the Labour Party in Scotland and there would always be
:05:39. > :05:42.that confusion. As the leader of the Labour group in Westminster,
:05:42. > :05:47.obviously Ed Miliband has every right to comment on the suitability
:05:47. > :05:53.of one of his MPs to sit there. We have been here a number of times
:05:53. > :05:57.before. This is a test of leadership. She has to make
:05:57. > :06:02.absolutely clear there is no future for Eric Joyce in the Scottish
:06:02. > :06:07.Labour Party and that he has really got to go. I wonder if the moral
:06:07. > :06:11.climate is changing. Perhaps in the aftermath of the MPs' expenses
:06:11. > :06:16.question. One of the things that Johann Lamont made clear was that
:06:16. > :06:21.she thought quite irrespective of what happened to the charges that
:06:21. > :06:26.Eric Joyce is facing as a result of the incident last week, on this new
:06:26. > :06:33.issue, the alleged affair alone, if it is true, he should no longer be
:06:33. > :06:39.an MP. That is not illegal. remember the back-to-basics, a
:06:39. > :06:44.weekly series of scandals in John Major's government, because in that
:06:44. > :06:50.government, John Major spoke about family values and that set up all
:06:50. > :06:55.of these MPs who were found to be engaged in various alleged sexual
:06:55. > :06:59.misdemeanours. To that extent we have been here before. However, I
:06:59. > :07:04.think it is probably true that for many women, the issue of an older
:07:04. > :07:09.man allegedly engaging in sexual relations with a relatively young
:07:09. > :07:13.girl is something they feel more sensitive about their many men and
:07:13. > :07:19.that is perhaps in part what Johann Lamont reflected. One might want to
:07:19. > :07:21.argue that while the Labour Party may well want to distance itself
:07:21. > :07:25.from a rich choice given his personal difficulties, given that
:07:25. > :07:30.it is impossible for them to force him out of the parliament before
:07:30. > :07:34.2015, maybe Johann Lamont was not necessarily wise in giving the
:07:34. > :07:38.story quite so much airtime by insisting he must resign. We will
:07:38. > :07:41.be back with you in a moment. If civic Scotland sounds like a
:07:41. > :07:44.polite social gathering, our own version of the Tea Party, perhaps,
:07:44. > :07:46.it's worth remembering that it was social groups, unions and churches
:07:46. > :07:49.who gave lift-off to the Constitutional Convention which led
:07:49. > :07:54.to the Scottish parliament. Political parties ignore them at
:07:54. > :07:57.their peril. What starts as an insistent tapping on the door can
:07:57. > :08:00.grow into a ground-shaking thunder. They call it the Future of Scotland.
:08:00. > :08:10.It met for the first time in Glasgow. And Derek Bateman was
:08:10. > :08:15.
:08:15. > :08:25.Oh you have to go back to 1980s for a political gathering of such bread.
:08:25. > :08:25.
:08:25. > :08:30.Some may be uneasy at the comparison. -- breadth. But the
:08:30. > :08:39.group meeting by the River Clyde today had echoes of the
:08:39. > :08:44.constitutional convention. This is by far the biggest of the at hoc
:08:44. > :08:49.groups to occupy the centre ground between independence and status quo
:08:49. > :08:59.but it is also at the earliest stage between formulating policy,
:08:59. > :09:01.
:09:01. > :09:11.on like the launch of Devo Plus 11 a week. It is clear that the real
:09:11. > :09:12.
:09:12. > :09:17.debate is happening in the middle - - in the middle. They called it the
:09:17. > :09:23.Future of Scotland. They began by voicing opinions on what kind of
:09:23. > :09:29.country they want to live and. We have got a spirit that makes us
:09:29. > :09:35.keep going, keep striving. With independence we will have a
:09:35. > :09:40.fantastic future. They are along way from agreeing a
:09:40. > :09:44.position on the constitution. Or anything, apart from the fact that
:09:44. > :09:50.they want to be heard. And they do not want the political parties to
:09:50. > :09:54.control the debate. It includes churches, young people, community
:09:54. > :09:59.groups, all meaning that if they do throw their weight behind a
:09:59. > :10:06.position they will be difficult to ignore.
:10:06. > :10:10.There are echoes and I welcome this voice being held again. -- here.
:10:10. > :10:14.But it is a reminder that having been here there were
:10:14. > :10:18.disappointments associated with the new Scottish Parliament. It is not
:10:18. > :10:23.just about the constitutional process. It needs a tremendous
:10:23. > :10:28.engagement with the political parties. The parties are the way we
:10:28. > :10:33.run our democracy. Unless you change them you do not ultimately
:10:33. > :10:41.change the policies. So be on the aspiration that there
:10:41. > :10:44.will be a need for a mechanism to deliver change. -- beyond.
:10:44. > :10:49.Looking at the Scottish attitudes Survey you can see people
:10:49. > :10:53.clustering around three options. Independence, more power, the
:10:53. > :10:58.status quo. If Scotland wants to find out which of the options is
:10:58. > :11:03.the most popular it is entirely possible to do it. You should have
:11:03. > :11:13.a great way question about change/not wanting change. Then a
:11:13. > :11:14.
:11:14. > :11:17.second question about devolution maximum/full independence. On
:11:17. > :11:24.balance we would come down in favour of people asking those
:11:24. > :11:29.questions at the same time. Even the man behind devolution plus
:11:29. > :11:34.was there. We have seen that people are
:11:34. > :11:39.searching for solutions and want to have at debate, to be engaged. What
:11:39. > :11:43.we have set out is an option that people can decide is for them, or
:11:43. > :11:49.not. And if you believe in something she
:11:49. > :11:53.did not be put in the referendum? There are lots of ways to get what
:11:53. > :12:01.you want. The SNP and the other parties are moving towards the
:12:01. > :12:07.centre. What might be the end game?
:12:07. > :12:10.They grouping that we have is non- partisan nor can it be. We have
:12:10. > :12:15.organisations that may in the next few months arrive at positions of
:12:15. > :12:19.their own. Others will not. But it does not stop has been a loose
:12:19. > :12:23.coalition who can open up debate would people's opinions will be
:12:23. > :12:33.respected. We talk about civil society and I hope it will be civil
:12:33. > :12:37.debate. They have the capacity to take the
:12:37. > :12:43.lead in the centre ground debate with some partners like the unions
:12:43. > :12:53.already inching towards devolution Max. It is early days and it seems
:12:53. > :12:56.Is this a great national debate or will people does be confused by the
:12:56. > :13:00.plethora of different organisations?
:13:00. > :13:03.There is the potential for confusion because although Lapper
:13:04. > :13:08.attitude and also of this suggests there is an appetite out there for
:13:08. > :13:13.the Scottish Parliament to be more powerful than it currently is -
:13:13. > :13:21.attitudinal surveys, what is lacking right now is clearly
:13:21. > :13:24.worked-out proposal. The devolution plus group began to sketch out an
:13:24. > :13:31.outline of what they believe in the when they launched they did not
:13:31. > :13:35.come up of any detailed proposals. The group that met today is coming
:13:35. > :13:40.together and having debate but again it is not clear that they are
:13:41. > :13:46.going to come up with a detailed agreed proposal. We must remember
:13:46. > :13:50.what happened in the constitutional convention. It provided a forum in
:13:50. > :13:55.which Labour and Liberal Democrats came to a negotiated agreement
:13:55. > :13:58.about a relatively detailed scheme which but relatively little change
:13:59. > :14:03.was then implemented in the devolution settlement. At the
:14:03. > :14:09.moment at least we do not see a mechanism for the Unionist parties
:14:09. > :14:16.to come together for any agreed alternative or enhancement of
:14:16. > :14:24.devolution. You rather like this, Ian, don't
:14:24. > :14:29.you? How do you mean?
:14:29. > :14:31.You seem to be suggesting that what we have seen emerge this week is an
:14:31. > :14:37.utter elation of what the majority want and therefore might be a step
:14:37. > :14:44.in the right direction. -- indication. If I am not miss for
:14:45. > :14:49.raising what you wrote. It is an example the Unionist
:14:49. > :14:55.parties getting their act together behind the scenes and not leaving
:14:55. > :14:58.it to the SNP to continue having the initiative. Act One was a
:14:58. > :15:03.fortnight ago when David Cameron came out quite remarkably and
:15:03. > :15:08.announced that there was an option for more powers for the Scottish
:15:08. > :15:12.Parliament, despite what he and his Scottish leaders had been saying.
:15:12. > :15:18.Alastair Darling then said something similar for Labour. Then
:15:18. > :15:23.we had big evolution plus lunch this week in. Led by senior figures
:15:23. > :15:29.from three Unionist parties. The Liberal Democrats, Labour, but
:15:29. > :15:36.toadies. Now will come Act 3, moored expedition -- explicit
:15:36. > :15:43.collusion. And the chance for Labour to seize the moment in
:15:43. > :15:47.Scotland, being at orchestrated by Douglas Alexander who will call on
:15:48. > :15:54.Labour in its dying hour to realise that it has to change and adopt
:15:54. > :16:00.another form of devolution. Evolution plus is now the Unionist
:16:00. > :16:05.match are no line. Beyond which the SNP shall not go. It is their final
:16:05. > :16:12.or for. It will be interesting to see if that is taken up.
:16:12. > :16:20.We could avoid it two to years of debate, Alex Salmond wants a second
:16:20. > :16:26.question in the referendum, the second question he would presumably
:16:26. > :16:31.be happy with as a second-best, no matter what the other parties might
:16:31. > :16:38.think they would presumably be fairly happy with that, why not
:16:39. > :16:42.shocked so it all this and just have a deal? -- short circuit.
:16:42. > :16:46.In various ways the English parties are moving towards a position
:16:46. > :16:50.whereby at the time of the referendum even if it is not on the
:16:50. > :16:54.ballot paper they will be saying that, yes, they're in favour of a
:16:54. > :17:00.more advanced form of devolution, something much more advanced than
:17:00. > :17:04.originally envisaged in the 1990s. He certainly yes, eventually, we
:17:04. > :17:10.may end up with the situation which whilst Alex Salmond did not
:17:10. > :17:16.champion at, may be close to what many in the SNP are happy with.
:17:16. > :17:20.They could call it social union and everybody would be happy.
:17:20. > :17:25.But we have to realise that the reason the Unionist parties are
:17:25. > :17:30.moving is because of the SNP's continued electoral success and
:17:30. > :17:35.because there is the threat hanging over them that indeed the SNP might
:17:35. > :17:40.just manage to win an independence referendum and that is the last
:17:40. > :17:43.thing they want. So long as the SNP are successful and there is the
:17:43. > :17:49.possibility of an independent Scotland the Unionist parties are
:17:49. > :17:54.constantly under pressure to work out what their position actually is.
:17:54. > :18:03.We should not underestimate the significance of this. Evolution
:18:03. > :18:09.plus is not quite the same as their volition Max. It doesn't give
:18:09. > :18:13.income-tax corporation tax on oil revenues to the Scottish Parliament.
:18:13. > :18:17.If this becomes the new Unionist default position, and it is clearly
:18:17. > :18:21.moving in that direction, then Scotland will already have changed
:18:21. > :18:25.its constitutional status with the United Kingdom and United Kingdom
:18:25. > :18:32.will indeed be fundamentally different.
:18:32. > :18:35.Yes or no, are there are mutterings that Labour might sign up for that?
:18:35. > :18:41.I they are certainly not signing in the dotted line but they are moving
:18:41. > :18:47.in that direction. Douglas Alexander will be saying that very
:18:47. > :18:56.clearly tomorrow. A quick look at the front pages.