:00:05. > :00:15.affected. If a dray spring follows the dry winter. -- if a dry spring
:00:15. > :00:20.
:00:20. > :00:25.follows the dry winter. Good evening. I ask Donald Trump fit is
:00:25. > :00:30.appropriate to ask a head of Government if he wants to be known
:00:30. > :00:34.as Mad Alex. And shareholders plot revenge on the Royal Bank of
:00:34. > :00:39.Scotland old bosses and how many questions make a good referendum?
:00:39. > :00:42.Are we any wiser after the analysing? The American developer
:00:42. > :00:46.Donald Trump has upped the ante in his dispute with the Scottish
:00:46. > :00:48.government by using the expression "mad Alex" in a letter to the First
:00:48. > :00:58.Minister. Trump has been campaigning against a wind farm
:00:58. > :00:59.
:00:59. > :01:02.proposal offshore from his golf complex. The tycoon has made clear
:01:03. > :01:12.his disapproval of Scottish wind farm developments. Now he is
:01:13. > :01:25.
:01:25. > :01:35.getting personal. In a letter to The SNP leader has not risen to the
:01:35. > :01:39.
:01:39. > :01:49.bait and a Government statement was But the Liberal Democrat leader was
:01:49. > :01:55.
:01:55. > :02:01.A short while ago, I called Donald Trump at his office in New York. I
:02:01. > :02:06.asked him to outthrien point he was making. -- outline the point he was
:02:06. > :02:13.making. Scotland is a beautiful country to have these ugly
:02:13. > :02:17.industrial wind turbines, 7,000, maybe 8,000 and I even hear numbers
:02:17. > :02:21.higher, to have them throughout Scotland, ruining the shores and
:02:21. > :02:25.the beauty, would be a disaster. Now the people in Ireland are happy,
:02:25. > :02:29.because tourism in Scotland will cease to exist. Before when I
:02:29. > :02:33.decided not to do the job, because they were going to put turbines up,
:02:33. > :02:38.they all said, well I guess you know the turbines won't be built
:02:38. > :02:42.and they weren't. After my investment was made, they then said,
:02:42. > :02:47.here come the turbines. So I thought I was dealt with very
:02:47. > :02:52.unfairly. Is this about Scotland and its environment, or is this
:02:52. > :02:56.about you and your particular investment? No, I'm happy with the
:02:56. > :03:00.fact we built this and I look forward to the next phase, as soon
:03:00. > :03:04.as I get assurances that these won't be built. I love the idea of
:03:04. > :03:10.building a hotel, I think it will do well. We don't have a loan on
:03:10. > :03:14.the property, it is interesting e- interesting, I built this out of
:03:14. > :03:18.cash from my own pocket. I thought you had downed tools? No, we
:03:18. > :03:23.haven't stopped work. We built the course and it is going to open, in
:03:23. > :03:30.fact now we're building a temporary club house. And it is going to be
:03:30. > :03:33.opening in the very near future. It will hope in earl -- early July.
:03:33. > :03:38.That will happen regardless of the decision on the planning
:03:38. > :03:44.application. Yes it is finished. We have completed it ahead of schedule.
:03:44. > :03:48.We will open, in fact we would open sooner, but we wanted some of the
:03:48. > :03:53.great European players here. They will be in Scotland for the
:03:53. > :03:58.Scottish Open. Wouldn't turbines and many others help save the
:03:58. > :04:04.planet and the impact that climate change may have? No, well that
:04:04. > :04:08.depends on whether you leave e -- believe in climate change. A lot of
:04:08. > :04:12.people don't believe in it and don't see the issue. You don't
:04:12. > :04:18.believe the vines? I frankly, as far as climate change, I'm on the
:04:18. > :04:21.fence. I'm not a believer. And just so you understand, there is always
:04:21. > :04:26.climate change, but I don't believe some of the reports that came out
:04:26. > :04:31.and if you look at some of the studies, they are proven to be
:04:31. > :04:37.false. To destroy Scotland over something which many people don't
:04:37. > :04:43.believe is in fact a fact is a terrible thing. To destroy the
:04:43. > :04:47.tourism industry in Scotland, would be I think just, which is I believe
:04:47. > :04:51.Scotland's biggest industry, would be a disgrace. What do you make of
:04:51. > :04:56.the comments from the Scottish Liberal Democrat leader, Willie
:04:56. > :05:02.Rennie who, says you're turning more eccentric and hysterical by
:05:02. > :05:07.the day and you're attempting toing to bull -- to bully the First
:05:07. > :05:13.Minister. Don't know who he is. Don't care whoers. If not
:05:13. > :05:17.hysterical, is not intemporate to describe an elected politician as
:05:17. > :05:24.being mad? I'm not saying he is mad. But if this goes forward they will
:05:24. > :05:31.refer to him as Mad Alex. I say that, with all due respect. If he
:05:31. > :05:35.allows Scotland to be destroyed with his ugly machines, you're talk
:05:35. > :05:39.about 7,000 to 8,000 all over the coast of Scotland, the only one
:05:39. > :05:43.happy about it will be Ireland. Because they will take all of your
:05:43. > :05:47.business as sure as you're sitting there. I thought you and the First
:05:47. > :05:52.Minister were friends, you described him as an amazing man.
:05:52. > :05:57.thought we were friends, when somebody who comes out with who igs
:05:57. > :06:00.a politician with an idea that is insane. I have to speak up. I have
:06:00. > :06:04.an investment to protect and a country I love, because my mother
:06:04. > :06:09.was born there. I'm doing a great service to Scotland. Because
:06:09. > :06:16.Scotland is going to be destroyed if this litter is allowed to be
:06:16. > :06:19.built all over its coast. Donald Trump, thank you. Thank you. Now,
:06:19. > :06:22.the stage is set for a serious legal battle between the people who
:06:22. > :06:25.used to run the Royal Bank of Scotland and a group of
:06:25. > :06:28.shareholders who think they were conned out of �12 billion just
:06:28. > :06:31.before the bank collapsed. Court action is being planned on behalf
:06:31. > :06:34.of individuals and institution which bought into the Royal Bank's
:06:34. > :06:37.special issue of new shares, which was designed to raise new capital
:06:37. > :06:47.to tide the bank over a difficult period. And we all know how that
:06:47. > :06:50.
:06:50. > :06:56.ended. It is called a rights issue. A company wants to raise capital,
:06:56. > :07:02.so it offers new shares. Often at a discounts, to existing share horls.
:07:02. > :07:07.Like any issue, there are a lot of rules and the main thing is the
:07:07. > :07:12.prospeck us the must be honest and fair. The problem with the RBS
:07:12. > :07:19.issue in 2008 is that it was followed less than six month later
:07:19. > :07:24.by the failure of the bank, which was only saved from closure by
:07:24. > :07:30.Government intervention. Did nobody know there was trouble brewing?
:07:30. > :07:36.They in a document suggested that 12 billion would sort out all their
:07:36. > :07:42.problems. They were fully aware by all accounts, and I have read the
:07:42. > :07:48.letter o' claim, took me three hours to go through it, in great
:07:48. > :07:53.detail and it appears from that letter, that there were many
:07:53. > :08:01.examples of evidence that they knew full well that that would be
:08:01. > :08:05.inadequate. The RBS share holders' action group reckons it is unlikely
:08:05. > :08:11.in the extreme that everyone in authority in the bank was of the
:08:11. > :08:15.opinion that everything was fine. So they're threatening to go to
:08:16. > :08:20.court to recover their share of the 12 billion. When you have a rights
:08:20. > :08:28.issue, you have to sign an agreement that you will not go back
:08:28. > :08:33.to your shareholders, for at least a year, and they went bust within
:08:33. > :08:38.five months. So the shareholders have every right to feel aggrieved.
:08:38. > :08:44.And some people lost their life savings on this and it is a serious
:08:44. > :08:52.affair. The bank responded by saying it has substantial and
:08:52. > :09:01.credible legal and factual defences to the claim and will defends
:09:01. > :09:07.itself vigorously. -- defend itself vigorously. One part of claim is
:09:07. > :09:13.the acquisition of the bank ABM AMRO. The bank presented this in
:09:13. > :09:21.glowing term, although insiders described it as a disaster. And
:09:21. > :09:26.there was talk of borrowing that was not revealed. I'm joined by
:09:26. > :09:31.Iain Fraser who broke the story. Why has it taken share holes so
:09:31. > :09:34.long to bring these action? -- shareholders. I think they thought
:09:34. > :09:39.the Financial Services Authority would do a better job of
:09:39. > :09:43.investigating the matter. As you know, the Financial Services
:09:43. > :09:47.Authority, its main role is to police the city. But the view, well
:09:47. > :09:52.they were depending on it to produce a thorough report
:09:52. > :09:59.investigating the matter, whether or not shareholders were misled.
:09:59. > :10:06.But the part of the report into the RBS that was publiced -- published
:10:06. > :10:10.in December, it was supposed to be published earlier, it didn't seem
:10:10. > :10:14.to tackle this issue. Once the report came out, it was
:10:14. > :10:23.disappointing. And they then decided I think to proceed with the
:10:23. > :10:29.legal claim. Problems of this sort don't come around often, is there
:10:29. > :10:34.any historical example of an action of this sort and if so how did it
:10:34. > :10:41.turn out? I don't know of an exact comparison. Although you can think
:10:41. > :10:47.back to the City of Glasgow back in 1873 where within one year the
:10:47. > :10:52.entire board, or certainly a number of directors, were in jail. That is
:10:52. > :10:56.a... A parallel. But it is a long time ago and a different
:10:56. > :11:02.environment. I am not aware of an action such as the one which these
:11:02. > :11:08.people are proposing. What happens now? Well I think the board, the
:11:08. > :11:13.board of directors who were running the bank in 2008 have 90 days to
:11:13. > :11:18.respond to the allegations which are in the letter o' of claimment
:11:18. > :11:21.and the bank itself, the current bank has 90 days to respond to
:11:21. > :11:26.these allegations. And if they don't respond to the satisfaction
:11:26. > :11:31.of the people who are putting forward the claim, who represent
:11:31. > :11:37.large institution s and small investors, then they will proceed
:11:37. > :11:43.with a court case in the High Court in London. They will be seeking at
:11:43. > :11:50.least �2.4 billion, but possibly more. Obviously, they have put
:11:50. > :11:55.together a case and the bank says it will defend itself, we have yet
:11:55. > :12:00.to hear from them, but what the -- but what is the whistle blowing
:12:00. > :12:09.culture like in these banks? There doesn't seem to be whistle blowing
:12:09. > :12:14.culture. There was one guy called Paul Moore, who emerged in HBOS and
:12:14. > :12:21.opened a lot of internal practices that were not known and the risk
:12:21. > :12:28.management failures, but within RBS there are... There is no equivalent
:12:28. > :12:31.to Paul Moore, who has come out and stated that risk management
:12:32. > :12:37.processes that were inadequate or auditing was. There is evidence to
:12:37. > :12:41.suggest that these things were inadequate within RBS. There is a
:12:42. > :12:51.guy called Clive Adamson, a former Executive with the Financial
:12:52. > :12:54.
:12:54. > :12:58.Services Authority, who apparently stated to an author that RBS's
:12:58. > :13:02.disclosures in 2008 were a pack of lays. He discovered this when he
:13:02. > :13:09.was working for the Financial Services Authority. -- pack of lies.
:13:09. > :13:17.But he was sat upon and not able to reveal or release the information,
:13:17. > :13:21.because if the FSA had publicised the fact that RBS's mandate were a
:13:21. > :13:26.pack of lies, it would have undermined the way it was
:13:26. > :13:34.regulating the banks. shareholders feel they have been
:13:34. > :13:38.coned, isn't it possible that those at a bank which made so many
:13:38. > :13:43.disastrous decisions, seemingly blind to the consequences may have
:13:43. > :13:48.asked for shareholders to buy more shares, without knowing the real
:13:48. > :13:54.dangers? Sorry could you repeat the question? I wonder if it is
:13:54. > :14:00.possible that the share rights issue could have been made without
:14:00. > :14:05.any knowledge of the difficulties to come? I don't believe that is
:14:05. > :14:10.possible. I believe that the board of directors were much more aware
:14:10. > :14:16.of the trouble in which their bank found its and they were aware of
:14:16. > :14:21.trouble in which ABM AMRO found itself and they were hiding this
:14:21. > :14:28.information. That is what a court case like this is justified in my
:14:28. > :14:31.vau. Thank you. -- in my view. Now, three out of four Scottish
:14:31. > :14:34.political parties have had their Spring conferences and the Prime
:14:34. > :14:37.Minster has already told us what he thinks about the constitution. So
:14:37. > :14:39.you'd think everyone's position is now completely clear as to what the
:14:40. > :14:42.referendum should be about. It's not, however, as simple as that.
:14:42. > :14:52.Shortly I'll be hearing from a leading authority, first David
:14:52. > :14:53.
:14:53. > :14:57.Allison reports. Over the past two weekends Labour and the SNP have
:14:57. > :15:02.been in spring conference mode. No surprises that constitutional
:15:02. > :15:07.change has been top of the agenda. One way or another. Let me tell
:15:07. > :15:10.Alex Salmond something. Putting Saltires around his fire place is
:15:10. > :15:17.no proof that he is putting Scotland's interest first, and
:15:17. > :15:22.there is one thing we are good at - spotting a con man when we see one.
:15:22. > :15:27.Labour along with the lest -- rest of the anti-independence campaign
:15:27. > :15:33.have a lot of catching up to do with the SNP, who are riding high,
:15:33. > :15:40.both in term of party membership and their campaign war shest chest.
:15:40. > :15:45.Home rule with independence, beats Tory rule from Westminster any time.
:15:45. > :15:50.So the party faithful have been lapping it up, despite a host of
:15:50. > :15:53.unanswered questions from both sides. In the real worlds, away
:15:53. > :16:00.from the weekend conference venue, others are trying to work out what
:16:00. > :16:06.this means in practice. We know there will be a referendum, but
:16:06. > :16:12.what question will it ask? How many questions will there be? Its up for
:16:12. > :16:15.grabs. Can I welcome you to this meeting? At Westminster, the
:16:15. > :16:18.unionist party come dominated Scottish affairss committee is
:16:18. > :16:22.holding an inquiry on what they call referendum on separation for
:16:22. > :16:28.Scotland. Last week they heard from distinguished political scientist
:16:28. > :16:32.and pollsters and asked if Devo Max should be a referendum question.
:16:32. > :16:38.seems from opinion poll evidence this is the option most Scots
:16:38. > :16:43.favour. It would be odd in an instrument designed to discover
:16:43. > :16:51.what Scottish people think to exclude the option that they most
:16:51. > :16:56.favour. But aren't these things undefined. What we're coming to is
:16:56. > :17:02.an understanding as the terms of this potential independence are
:17:02. > :17:06.being redefined, week-to-week and day-to-day by the Scottish
:17:06. > :17:10.Government and I don't blame them that, there would be an element of
:17:10. > :17:17.pig in the poke, even with a vote for independence. The result likely
:17:17. > :17:21.to be the subject of negotiations, should people get a second
:17:21. > :17:31.referendum? If there is a referendum, we know what no means.
:17:31. > :17:34.But we are not sure what yes means. If you were to have then a post
:17:34. > :17:41.referendum referendum you could gate question majority the first
:17:41. > :17:46.time and a no the second. So many questions, so few answers. John
:17:46. > :17:51.Curtis know no stranger to this programme, offer one way out.
:17:51. > :17:57.first indeed have the straight clear question that everyone seems
:17:57. > :18:00.to agree they want, which is do you want Scotland to become independent.
:18:00. > :18:05.Then you can have the seconds question, or if you want you have
:18:05. > :18:10.have a second referendum and there is a more of a an argument, that
:18:10. > :18:15.says if Scotland remains part of the United Kingdom, do you want to
:18:15. > :18:18.have devolution Max or the status quo? The experts agreed the second
:18:18. > :18:23.question was possible, but the question for Labour, the
:18:23. > :18:27.Conservative and the Liberal Democrats is what to do about it.
:18:27. > :18:35.If anything. With just over two and a half years until the referendum,
:18:35. > :18:39.the next major test for the parties is over places like this, Glasgow,
:18:39. > :18:45.what you hay may say do council elections have to do with the
:18:45. > :18:48.constitution? Not a lot, but that won't stop the parties. I'm joined
:18:48. > :18:51.from Oxford by the University's Professor of Politics, Iain Maclean.
:18:51. > :18:59.As you saw in the film, he was one of the academics giving evidence
:18:59. > :19:03.about how many questions would make a good referendum. More than one is
:19:03. > :19:06.advantageous? It has advantages? But it has down sides. The clip you
:19:06. > :19:12.played had me talking about the advantages. But I think in
:19:12. > :19:16.somewhere else in that hearing I talked about the down sides. Which
:19:16. > :19:24.are? The down side, the biggest down side is supposing you got a
:19:24. > :19:28.vote yes for independence and a vote yes for Devo Max, what happens
:19:28. > :19:33.then. The Scottish Government would say that is a vote for independence.
:19:33. > :19:36.The UK Government would say, hang on, a higher proportion of the
:19:36. > :19:42.Scottish people voted for something else. And none of us at the moment
:19:42. > :19:47.know what that something else would be, or is. Which is another reason
:19:47. > :19:53.why although as you saw I said to the committee, that it seems on one
:19:53. > :20:03.way of looking at it odd to exclude the option that most Scots seem to
:20:03. > :20:04.
:20:04. > :20:09.wants. Is Devo Max, Dee Voe plus or Dee Voe more, a package short of
:20:09. > :20:13.independence definable? One has been defined by the Calman
:20:13. > :20:20.Commission that was commissioned by the previous Government and has
:20:20. > :20:27.been adopted by this UK Government. That is devo more and that is
:20:27. > :20:35.something we know. Some people say it is not enough and they want devo
:20:35. > :20:39.more, more and maybe devee max. And so somebody has to say it means the
:20:39. > :20:48.following taxes will be devolved and the following spending areas.
:20:48. > :20:52.There is the devo plus package. Well yes, slightly fewer taxes.
:20:52. > :20:57.it should be possible to define whatever package is offered? Yes,
:20:57. > :21:01.it should. If that is possible, and it did go on the ballot paper with
:21:01. > :21:08.independence, how do you get around the problem that you have raised
:21:08. > :21:14.about what happens if both options get a positive majority yes vote?
:21:14. > :21:19.That is one of the easier questions. Because there are ways of doing it
:21:19. > :21:24.which haven't been tried in the UK but they're perfectly robust. That
:21:24. > :21:28.is you take each of the options against each of the others, like a
:21:28. > :21:32.round Robin tournament, everyone plays everyone else and you see
:21:32. > :21:36.which one beats all of the others. Now of course if known beats the
:21:37. > :21:42.other, you go around in circles and that is a problem F you don't have
:21:42. > :21:46.that problem, you would come up with an option which would beat the
:21:47. > :21:51.others. Are you talking about multiple choice or having a gate
:21:51. > :21:55.way question for constitutional reform yes or no and a second
:21:55. > :22:01.question testing independence against devolution more in the vent
:22:01. > :22:07.that people say yes to change? would prefer it to be all on the
:22:07. > :22:13.same ballot paper. So the options would be set out, independence and
:22:13. > :22:17.there would have to have been some booklet that said what independence
:22:18. > :22:22.would involve. Doe Voe -- Devo Max and that must be propose and you
:22:22. > :22:27.should say what it is involves and a note that it takes two to play
:22:27. > :22:32.devolution and there would have to be a Westminster response and then
:22:32. > :22:37.no to both that would involve the the present UK Government. Doesn't
:22:37. > :22:43.this get confusing for you and I, never mind all the many thousands
:22:43. > :22:47.and millions who are being zod vote and don't follow this - being asked
:22:47. > :22:52.to vote and don't follow this story. Yes that is one of the argument
:22:52. > :22:57.that people who want the straight up and down votes use. What do you
:22:57. > :23:04.say to those who say more devolution in whatever form and
:23:04. > :23:07.independence are similar pill my of a different -- are simply of a
:23:07. > :23:11.different magnitude, one is about independence and one is about
:23:11. > :23:17.changing the relationship with the state that is is currently part of?
:23:17. > :23:21.Yes this is moving fast. The Scottish Government has been
:23:21. > :23:26.recently fleshing out its vision and it seems that independence is
:23:26. > :23:31.not as complete as people may have thought. Keeping the monarchy,
:23:31. > :23:36.keeping the currency and now going for some defence agreement with the
:23:36. > :23:42.UK. But the full transfer of sovereignty, how much of it you
:23:42. > :23:46.wish to pool thereafter is political independence, and is of a
:23:46. > :23:51.different Mag dude to devolution more? The Scottish Government says
:23:51. > :23:55.that, but I have a difficulty in seeing that. What is the complete
:23:55. > :23:59.transfer of sovereignty if you're going keep the pound sterling? You
:23:59. > :24:04.have not completely transferred sovereignty, because you don't
:24:04. > :24:11.necessarily have control over that southern si. I'm not saying I'm for
:24:11. > :24:21.it or against it. -- currency. I don't see it as a complete transfer
:24:21. > :24:22.
:24:22. > :24:31.of sov - o' sovereign si. Thank you. Now a quick look at tomorrow's
:24:31. > :24:41.front pages. The Daily Mail, Lockerbie bomber's drug is refused
:24:41. > :24:50.for slats. The Scotsman has the same story. The drug has been found
:24:50. > :24:54.in clinical trials to extend the lives of prostate cancer patients.
:24:54. > :24:57.That's all from me. If you want to see the programme again it's on the