:00:10. > :00:12.Tonight on Newsnight Scotland: Whatever happened to the debate
:00:12. > :00:17.about the monarchy and whether Britain - or indeed an independent
:00:17. > :00:20.Scotland - should be a republic? As the Queen tells Lords and MPs she's
:00:20. > :00:24.recommitting herself to the United Kingdom, has the country's view of
:00:24. > :00:29.her family fundamentally changed over the past decade? Is the issue
:00:29. > :00:32.of the monarchy no longer an issue? Good evening. The Scottish
:00:32. > :00:35.Parliament is to hold a debate in honour of the Queen's Diamond
:00:35. > :00:38.Jubilee. The First Minister made the announcement as the Queen was
:00:38. > :00:41.accepting a stained glass window as a present from parliamentarians at
:00:41. > :00:44.Westminster. In her Diamond Jubilee speech, there was no mention of any
:00:44. > :00:46.possible changes to Scotland's status, in spite of the fact that
:00:46. > :00:49.the Queen had wandered into that political minefield previously, at
:00:50. > :00:52.the time of her Silver Jubilee in 1977. In a moment, we'll discuss
:00:53. > :01:02.the relationship between the state and the head of state. First Julie
:01:03. > :01:06.
:01:06. > :01:10.Peacock reports. There was plenty of the tomp and circumstance that
:01:10. > :01:19.Britain does so well. But no mention of how this country could
:01:19. > :01:24.look in a few years time. We're reminded here of our past. Of the
:01:24. > :01:30.continuity of our national story and the virtues of resilience,
:01:30. > :01:34.engeneral youty and - ingenuity and tolerance which created it. I have
:01:34. > :01:39.been privileged to witness some of that history and with the support
:01:39. > :01:45.of my family, rededicate myself to the service of our great country
:01:45. > :01:50.and its people, now and in the years to come. Politicians from all
:01:50. > :01:56.parties praised the monarch, Alex Salmond was one of them and said
:01:56. > :02:02.his party had long since changed its view on the monarchy. Plans to
:02:02. > :02:06.held a referendum on the royals' role in an independent Scotland
:02:06. > :02:11.have been dropped. Policies change and that was an intelligent change
:02:11. > :02:17.in policy. A lot of things change. As the Queen herself was noting
:02:17. > :02:22.today, she has seen 12 Prime Ministers in her reign. She has
:02:22. > :02:25.seen four Scottish First Ministers and three Welsh First Ministers and
:02:25. > :02:30.two northern Irish ministers. I think that was very much a change
:02:30. > :02:35.for the better. It places the monarchy as it should be in a place
:02:35. > :02:39.which is above and beyond politics. I think that is all to the good.
:02:39. > :02:47.is a different tone that the one set in 1977, when Scottish
:02:47. > :02:51.independence was an idea gaining popularity. I number kings and
:02:51. > :02:59.queens of England of Scotland and princesses of Wales among my
:02:59. > :03:04.ancestors. So I can reddily understand these aspirations. But I
:03:04. > :03:12.cannot forget that I was crowned queen of the United Kingdom, of
:03:12. > :03:21.Great Britain and Northern Ireland. It was still another 15 years
:03:21. > :03:27.before her royal highness was experience her annus horrible lis.
:03:27. > :03:34.But in the 70s there was opposition to the Queen. The sex pistols
:03:34. > :03:39.almost made No 1 with good save the Queen. Some believed an
:03:39. > :03:46.establishment conspiracy gave Rod Stewart the top spot instead. And
:03:46. > :03:50.the SNP had never been more popular, with eleven MPs in Parliament. At
:03:50. > :03:54.the time a significant number of members held republic can views,
:03:54. > :04:01.particularly in the 79 group, a group that the young Alex Salmond
:04:02. > :04:06.was a member of. Until it got him thrown out of party in the 80s. It
:04:06. > :04:13.noise longer 1977 and attitudes to the monarchy have warmed. No longer
:04:14. > :04:19.are they seen as cold and distant. They have reinvented themselves as
:04:19. > :04:25.Britain's first family and are now as much part of British culture as
:04:25. > :04:30.fish and chips and the Red Arrows. The SNP are unlikely to rock that
:04:30. > :04:36.boat. The Queen is popular to add the issue of Republicanism that
:04:37. > :04:40.would be the alternative into the debate would to put it mildly muddy
:04:40. > :04:46.the waters. I think they have taken the right approach in this. Because
:04:46. > :04:50.you could argue historically what they are saying is if the
:04:50. > :04:55.independent vote gos in a certain direction, that abandoning the
:04:55. > :05:00.union, but still retaining the union of crowns. According to some
:05:00. > :05:06.it doesn't mean Republicanism has died out in the SNP. Alex Salmond
:05:06. > :05:11.has worked out there is sup fort tr -- support for queen and the
:05:11. > :05:15.monarchy in Scotland and the SNP policy, or rather Alex Salmond's
:05:15. > :05:21.policy has changed to recognise that fact. Maybe I'm being cynical,
:05:21. > :05:26.but I have been covering SNP kfrs conferences since 1979 and they are
:05:26. > :05:30.58 Republicans. 2002, the last time there was a commission, headed by
:05:30. > :05:33.the late Neil McCormack said there would be a referendum on the
:05:33. > :05:40.monarchy. The idea was the Presiding Officer of this place
:05:40. > :05:43.would be the temporary head of state until the referendum. In that
:05:44. > :05:51.case it would be Tricia Marwick would be the head of state. What
:05:51. > :05:56.happen after that, goodness knows. Regardless of thousand refer dup -
:05:56. > :06:01.ehow the referendum goes, it is unlikety the Queen will be out o'
:06:01. > :06:04.of a job north of border. I'm joined now from Edinburgh by the
:06:04. > :06:05.Times editor, Magnus Linklater, and here by commentator and blogger,
:06:05. > :06:11.Gerrry Hassan, and by Glasgow University vice-principal,
:06:11. > :06:17.Professor Murray Pittock. Magnus Linklater is it conceivable tt
:06:17. > :06:26.queen could have made remarks today along the lines of those in 1977.
:06:26. > :06:34.They were more pointed she said, perhaps this Jubilee is a time to
:06:34. > :06:39.remind ourselves of the benefits the union has conferred. Is it
:06:40. > :06:44.conceivable she could say that now? No, that would be a highly
:06:44. > :06:50.political remark to make in the current climate and what the Queen
:06:50. > :06:53.has done since then, every time she has come to Scotland, particularly
:06:53. > :06:57.when she addressed the Scottish Parliament, that she has taken care
:06:57. > :07:02.to praise the quality of the Scots, to talk about her close contacts
:07:02. > :07:10.with Scotland and how much she a admires the Scottish character and
:07:10. > :07:15.that has been the message she has emphasised since then. I think it
:07:15. > :07:19.would be hard to imagine her now saying, I am the Queen of a United
:07:19. > :07:26.Kingdom. Because that United Kingdom is changing. It is changing
:07:26. > :07:31.in front of our eyes. Do you think, Murray Pittock, she could say
:07:31. > :07:39.anything like that now? I think things have moved on in all sorts
:07:39. > :07:44.of ways since 1977. People are less fearful of change. Change has
:07:44. > :07:49.happened to the monarchy and to the British politic, that the idea that
:07:49. > :07:53.any change would break things apart has been overcome by events. We're
:07:53. > :08:00.in a process of change and one thing that has been interesting is
:08:00. > :08:07.the palace adapted to the 2007 SNP victory in the Scottish election
:08:07. > :08:14.much better and much more quickly than many of the opposition. There
:08:14. > :08:17.was a very good and nuance adds and careful response to the First
:08:17. > :08:22.Minister and a warmth seems to have developed. It I not surprising that
:08:22. > :08:26.things have moved in the way that your interview with Alex Salmond
:08:27. > :08:30.indicated. That explains why, the SNP was never a Republican party,
:08:30. > :08:34.we should make that clear, Alex Salmond personally claims he was
:08:34. > :08:42.never a Republican. Although I think a lot of people in the 79
:08:42. > :08:51.group were. But any idea of let's have a referendum on this is out of
:08:51. > :08:56.the window. We have a multiplicity of unions. The Queen has done this
:08:56. > :09:04.better, a changing union, that most of the pro-union politicians. She
:09:04. > :09:10.got it right in 99 and in 2007 her language was more understanding, if
:09:10. > :09:13.you remember Blair and Brown and then in 2011. Now elected
:09:13. > :09:17.politicians could take a few lessons from the Queen. We can talk
:09:17. > :09:24.about her as a person and the institution, but as a person she
:09:24. > :09:32.understands that better than they seem to be. There has been a big
:09:33. > :09:42.rebranding exercise going on, if we look back a decade, events after,
:09:43. > :09:50.well following the death of Diana in 97, it was a low ebb for the
:09:50. > :09:54.monarchy. Well I am not sure I would agree that things have
:09:54. > :10:00.changed enormously. There has been a nuanced change. But the monarchy
:10:00. > :10:09.was very much a celebrity, a showbiz monarchy 0 years ago. What
:10:09. > :10:14.happened in 19 97 the death seemed to take the celebrity out of the
:10:14. > :10:19.monarchy for many people. So attitudes focused on the rest of
:10:19. > :10:27.monarchy as not living up to the cult of celebrity. The monarchy are
:10:27. > :10:32.back in that field again. Essentially, it is successful and
:10:32. > :10:37.permanent come back tour and they never need to come wack back.
:10:37. > :10:41.People always respond to them as - to come back, because people always
:10:41. > :10:48.respond to them as figure Herds and features in society and they have
:10:49. > :10:53.very good, clearly better and more nuanced advice than they had 0
:10:53. > :10:59.years ago. There has been a big reinvens. -- 30 years ago. What
:10:59. > :11:03.happened after the death of Diana, there was not a wave of weatherism,
:11:03. > :11:08.-- Republicanism but people said we don't like the way this set of
:11:08. > :11:12.royals is behaving and the reaction to the death. Rather than we don't
:11:12. > :11:17.wouldn't a monarchy. I think that is right. There was a lot of
:11:17. > :11:22.criticism, but I think the Royal Family itself learned a lot from
:11:22. > :11:27.that. And the Queen of course, the Queen herself has become steadily
:11:27. > :11:34.more popular, almost the longer she is there the more people warm to
:11:34. > :11:41.her. Now in Scotland it is queer that she -- clear she enjoifs come
:11:41. > :11:47.to Scotland and enjoys her holidays in slapped. And she as a person has
:11:47. > :11:53.-- in Scotland and she has a person has become more popular. After her,
:11:53. > :11:59.will that popularity pass on to her heir? I think there there may be
:11:59. > :12:04.some doubts. And I noticed that although Alex Salmond is now a
:12:04. > :12:09.signed up royalist, he still takes great care to say that he is first
:12:09. > :12:11.allegiance is to the Scottish people. That is a distinction that
:12:12. > :12:18.I don't think many English Parliamentarians would make. There
:12:19. > :12:28.is still that sense that he has got his fingers crossed behind his back.
:12:28. > :12:32.The issue there is that he is's looking at the issue of popular
:12:32. > :12:42.sovereignty and aware of the aspects of theory which mean that
:12:42. > :12:44.
:12:44. > :12:51.the popular sovereignty is at the heart of the Scottish. It accept e
:12:51. > :13:01.means Scotland is a different -- it means that Scotland is a different
:13:01. > :13:03.
:13:03. > :13:09.part of the constituency. I think what Alan was saying earlier, there
:13:09. > :13:14.is still opinion within the SNP that is probably still quite
:13:14. > :13:22.strongly Republican. I don't think you can ignore that. Do you think
:13:22. > :13:28.Republicanism as a radical cause is lost? No also to take the point,
:13:28. > :13:35.popular sovereignty is a myth in Scotland. It doesn't exist in legal
:13:35. > :13:38.intenty. I think we have a probable, we live in a country that is not a
:13:38. > :13:47.democracy. We have one part of constitution that is elected and
:13:47. > :13:51.still we have problems with and the queen has personified that. Not a
:13:51. > :13:56.democracy? The House of Lords is not elected, the Queen is not
:13:56. > :14:02.elected and we have heads of states around the world who are not
:14:03. > :14:07.elected. But we have gone through change since 1977 and a great
:14:07. > :14:13.widening of inquality and somehow despite the royal being connected
:14:13. > :14:16.to that, she has stobed some element of continuity --
:14:17. > :14:22.established some element of continuity. Once she goes, there is
:14:22. > :14:26.an issue of how the new royals will manage that. 30 years ago they
:14:26. > :14:30.would have represented the wealth and consumption, a pattern we saw
:14:30. > :14:35.in the 80s as well. If you think as long as they're there, Britain is
:14:35. > :14:41.no t democratic, what do you suggest, we elect them or just get
:14:41. > :14:44.rid of them? It is an issue that needs to be you know put forward
:14:44. > :14:51.that you can have different elements of authority and we could
:14:51. > :14:57.have an elected head of state or accept for a period that you don't
:14:57. > :15:03.directly elect everything. Nobody is suggest Scottish Enterprise is
:15:03. > :15:06.elected. We're not electing police heads, but a debate should be
:15:06. > :15:12.brought forward and acknowledged that Britain notice a democracy.
:15:12. > :15:16.Isn't that what people think. You say Britain noise t democratic.
:15:16. > :15:22.Most people would say that is none sense because we accept that the
:15:22. > :15:26.Queen, with has no political power, you know and is not elected. It
:15:26. > :15:31.doesn't mean Britain is not democratic. To be a full democracy,
:15:31. > :15:36.that is a fact. What is a full democracy? All countries have
:15:36. > :15:43.institution and not all have all their members elected. And in the
:15:43. > :15:49.UK and in Scotland, a lot of institutions have a link to the
:15:49. > :15:54.crown. And so there is an issue, the monarchy is an institution,
:15:54. > :16:00.there are institutions that that depend on the monarchy. It is a
:16:00. > :16:04.question of how you want to treat institutions in the wider society.
:16:04. > :16:11.But frankly no democratic country has democracy in all its
:16:11. > :16:15.institutions from top to bottom. Because that democracy requires
:16:15. > :16:19.institutional things to ensure liberty of its people. Do you think
:16:19. > :16:25.the culture has changed? Constitutional issues, whether
:16:25. > :16:30.Scotland should be independent, is important to nationalists. But more
:16:30. > :16:34.generally across Britain, some of the arguments for Republicanism,
:16:34. > :16:38.for changing, getting rid of the House of Lords, look at the
:16:38. > :16:43.difficulty the Liberal Democrats are having with that and with AV.
:16:43. > :16:50.These are issues that for a minority were very important 30
:16:50. > :16:55.years ago and don't seem to be as important now. I'm not sure they're
:16:55. > :17:01.as important in many people's minds, because in a sense they seem to
:17:01. > :17:07.belong to a virtual political realm. Reforming the House of Lords is
:17:07. > :17:13.like an endless joke without a punch line. It what going on since
:17:13. > :17:18.Lloyd George in 1911 and one reason the lords is not reformed, in the
:17:18. > :17:22.UK, no one can decide what to do with it. To make it more democratic,
:17:22. > :17:28.because the commons don't want it challenging their authority. And
:17:28. > :17:36.the idea of making it a kind of federalist chamber, which has been
:17:36. > :17:39.kicking around for 15 years is also unpopular. So... Yeah, people have
:17:39. > :17:42.lost interest in constitutional change in large parts of the UK.
:17:43. > :17:46.And they haven't here. That is one of the interesting differences
:17:46. > :17:52.between Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom. Does it concern
:17:52. > :17:59.you, not specifically that your views on the Queen, but there have
:17:59. > :18:03.been murmurings from some people of look if you're going to have
:18:03. > :18:08.independence, there must be must be some vision of what you want to do,
:18:08. > :18:12.rather than just have, you're not in the United Kingdom any more. Is
:18:12. > :18:18.this an example, this effort to make independence look exactly the
:18:18. > :18:24.same as staying in the UK and with the risk people say, sorry what is
:18:24. > :18:30.the point? Yes it is true f you go back to the 70s when there was a
:18:30. > :18:38.more powerism Republican tradition in the SNP. They loved the stuff of
:18:38. > :18:45.the house of Windsor and going to the receptions. But I think I
:18:45. > :18:47.understand why the SNP have shifted policy on the royalty, the Queen's
:18:47. > :18:52.popular and there will be change already with independence. One of
:18:52. > :18:59.the thins we have to talk about is about the powers, because Britain
:18:59. > :19:03.as a country is distorted by crown powers, we're talk about this when
:19:03. > :19:08.the Scottish affairs committee has published a report on the crown
:19:08. > :19:12.estate. A body that is unaccountable and could have great
:19:12. > :19:15.potential. A final thought from Magnus Linklater, we are talking
:19:16. > :19:22.about how the criticism was a particular members of Royal Family,
:19:22. > :19:28.rather than royalty after the death of Diana. How dependent is the
:19:28. > :19:32.current warmth on the Queen and could that change? In the culture
:19:32. > :19:38.we're in, could some misbehaviour create problems? I think the jury's
:19:38. > :19:42.out on that and there will be a lot of speculation about whether Prince
:19:42. > :19:47.Charles is likely to prove as popular as the Queen. It should
:19:47. > :19:52.jump a generation and there is erd that Prince William and Kate are,
:19:52. > :19:59.will be hugely pop raw Lahr. I think it will carry on for some
:19:59. > :20:06.time. -- hugely popular. We have to leave it there. Thank yu. Time to