:00:07. > :00:09.Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, the UK government say people here want
:00:09. > :00:14.a single question in an independence referendum and they
:00:14. > :00:18.want the vote as quickly as possible. So will they now give the
:00:18. > :00:21.Scottish Parliament power to actually hold the thing?
:00:21. > :00:24.And for these girls, learning about science is fun, but even those who
:00:24. > :00:32.stay the course and study science at university are far less likely
:00:32. > :00:35.to end up working as scientists Good evening. Well, there was no
:00:35. > :00:37.notable outbreak of dancing in the streets, but today the UK
:00:37. > :00:42.government published the results of its consultation on an independence
:00:42. > :00:45.referendum. It claims people want one question and want the vote held
:00:45. > :00:48.as soon as possible. That raises one rather obvious question - will
:00:48. > :00:57.they now give the Scottish Parliament the legal power to
:00:57. > :01:03.organise a referendum? Here's Julie The UK government's consultation
:01:04. > :01:07.has received 2857 responses from has received 2857 responses from
:01:07. > :01:10.groups and individuals. Here is what they so date. 75% wanted to
:01:10. > :01:14.what they so date. 75% wanted to see a single question on the ballot
:01:14. > :01:18.paper and 70% wanted to see the referendum happen sooner rather
:01:18. > :01:20.than later. These results are than later. These results are
:01:20. > :01:25.pretty much what the government and Unionist parties had been hoping
:01:25. > :01:29.for. We've had responses from nearly 3,000 people and
:01:29. > :01:32.organisations across Scotland in a great range of people and
:01:32. > :01:36.organisations with a lot of different points of view, but
:01:36. > :01:42.overwhelmingly they are telling us they want a single question, they
:01:43. > :01:45.want the referendum as soon as possible. This decision is of such
:01:45. > :01:49.importance to the future of Scotland that people have to look
:01:49. > :01:55.at this, they have to see what is happening. I think these results
:01:55. > :01:57.are very significant. Three- quarters are saying we want a clear
:01:57. > :02:06.decision to be made in the referendum. We have to get a move
:02:06. > :02:11.on. I think that speaks to opinion IFS. This debate is far from over.
:02:11. > :02:16.Of the 3,000 replies, 740, almost a Of the 3,000 replies, 740, almost a
:02:16. > :02:19.quarter, came from a standard form on a Labour Party website and
:02:19. > :02:22.responses comparatively small compared to the Scottish
:02:22. > :02:24.Government's own independent Government's own independent
:02:24. > :02:28.consultation. That received 12,000 responses and that is with a month
:02:28. > :02:31.ago. We know a quarter of the submissions were identical
:02:31. > :02:36.submissions can't or a firm from the Labour Party that argued for
:02:36. > :02:39.that position. That doesn't make them valid. If you have a
:02:40. > :02:44.consultation exercise which is so puny and tiny it can get flooded by
:02:44. > :02:49.multiple responses or identical responses from the same website, it
:02:49. > :02:53.discredits it. This is an extraordinary example of the
:02:54. > :02:57.Secretary of State discrediting his own exercise by a refusal to have
:02:57. > :03:02.it independently analysed. First Minister may be scaling of
:03:02. > :03:05.Labour's standard responses, but the SNP has offered the same thing
:03:05. > :03:09.on its website for people contributing to the Scottish
:03:09. > :03:15.government's consultation. Here is what Labour's response looks like
:03:15. > :03:19.and this is the SNP's standard e- mail. How useful is a consultation?
:03:19. > :03:25.It tends to reflect the opinion of a select group of people. And not
:03:25. > :03:29.the wider public. The value of consultations does not lie in the
:03:30. > :03:35.numbers of people who respond to them. The value of consultations
:03:35. > :03:40.lies in the quality of the arguments and crucially, do they
:03:40. > :03:43.uncover consideration that neither ministers nor officials have
:03:43. > :03:48.thought of? Snacks they have not thought of, possible advantages of
:03:48. > :03:53.doing something a different way. If there's one regret about the tone
:03:53. > :03:56.of the UK government's document, it seems to be rather self-
:03:56. > :04:01.congratulatory. It says most people agree with the arguments we have
:04:01. > :04:10.already articulated. That's fine, but then this consultation hasn't
:04:10. > :04:15.taken us very much further forward. This consultation will not tell us
:04:15. > :04:20.a great deal about what Scotland thinks, but politicians are paying
:04:20. > :04:23.attention and that is because the wording and the working of this
:04:23. > :04:27.referendum could affect the final result.
:04:27. > :04:29.Well, we did ask for an interview with the Secretary of State for
:04:29. > :04:32.Scotland, but no-one from the UK government was available to talk
:04:32. > :04:34.about the consultation they commissioned. There was also no-one
:04:34. > :04:36.available from the Scottish government available for interview.
:04:36. > :04:38.So I'm joined now by two constitutional experts who both
:04:38. > :04:41.contributed to the consultation - Professor Stephen Tierney, Director
:04:41. > :04:44.of the Edinburgh Centre for Constitutional Law, and Alan Trench,
:04:44. > :04:51.who is an honorary research fellow at the Constitution Unit at
:04:51. > :04:56.University College London. You can look through this document
:04:56. > :04:59.and take what you like from it. The real issue, I suppose, is that the
:04:59. > :05:04.British government has to give the Scottish Parliament legal powers to
:05:05. > :05:08.hold a referendum and where it takes us. Indeed. The section 30
:05:08. > :05:14.order is the tangible point of this consultation. It is telling that
:05:14. > :05:18.the Scottish government doesn't I will be interested to see if the UK
:05:18. > :05:22.government response to the Scottish government consultation. None of
:05:22. > :05:28.this will shake the key issue, which is the terms of that section
:05:28. > :05:31.30 order. Will they be acceptable to the SNP and will they therefore
:05:32. > :05:35.secure support in the Scottish parliament or will the SNP decide
:05:35. > :05:45.to reject them on the grounds they are to owners and they get in the
:05:45. > :05:47.
:05:47. > :05:51.way of the maidens, and reckon from them? It is ambiguous. It is
:05:51. > :05:56.whether they are saying we've done this consultation, this is a line
:05:56. > :06:00.in the sand, for example, we are only having one question. We want a
:06:01. > :06:05.referendum before the date the SNP government in Edinburgh would like
:06:06. > :06:10.one, or are they saying that this is still all up for negotiation?
:06:10. > :06:13.That is a card they are playing close to their chest. There have
:06:13. > :06:18.been four big issues about the referendum. Two of those now appear
:06:18. > :06:22.to be moved, the role of the electoral commission and whether 16
:06:22. > :06:28.and 17 year-olds can vote. It will be hard to see the SNP wishing to
:06:28. > :06:36.engage in a battle royal over either of those. We are now down to
:06:36. > :06:41.two issues. One is the number of questions. The other is the timing.
:06:41. > :06:44.I would suspect that the Unionist parties and the UK government will
:06:44. > :06:50.be much tougher about the number of questions than they might be about
:06:50. > :06:54.the timing. Right. Do you agree with that? Yes, to a large extent.
:06:54. > :06:58.I think the starting point is we need to work out what a
:06:58. > :07:07.consultation exercise is and isn't. It is a good way to inform public
:07:07. > :07:15.debate, it allows experts to set out and informed public debate.
:07:15. > :07:18.What it is not is an opinion poll. It is not to clear how much further
:07:18. > :07:25.ahead we are in terms of gauging what the public thinks. One point
:07:25. > :07:30.we could make... There were 3,000 responses to the UK government
:07:30. > :07:34.consultation and there have been 12,000 responses to the Scottish
:07:35. > :07:38.government's one. With all due respect to John Curtice's point
:07:38. > :07:44.about getting information out, if you add them together that is
:07:44. > :07:47.15,000 responses. Doesn't that tell you this whole debate is the
:07:47. > :07:51.political elites talking to themselves and the vast majority of
:07:51. > :07:56.the public are not interested. is an important number of
:07:56. > :08:00.contributions. We don't have a lot of these exercises in participate
:08:00. > :08:05.read politics within the UK and this is to be welcome. It is a
:08:05. > :08:09.pretty low response, isn't it? For what is supposed to be a defining
:08:09. > :08:14.issue in the history of a nation. One of the issues is we are still
:08:14. > :08:17.very much at the process stage. These consultation exercises are
:08:17. > :08:21.concerned with the technicalities of the referendum process, asking
:08:21. > :08:26.people about how the referendum should be termed. People are more
:08:26. > :08:31.interested in the substantive issues. The sooner we move the
:08:31. > :08:36.debate on from some of these processes... What is your take on
:08:36. > :08:39.section 30? This is the name of the order that the British government
:08:39. > :08:43.would pass through Parliament in order to give the Scottish
:08:43. > :08:49.parliament the right to organise a referendum on independence without
:08:49. > :08:59.it being open to challenge in the courts. Where do you think we are
:08:59. > :09:02.
:09:02. > :09:09.on that? Do you agree with Alan He is right. The electoral issue is
:09:09. > :09:13.no longer an issue. The question might be the timing. We are up in
:09:13. > :09:19.the air to some extent as to the legal powers of the Scottish
:09:19. > :09:24.Parliament to hold a referendum. That is not resolved, as to whether
:09:24. > :09:27.the Scottish Government can hold a -- an advisory referendum. A way
:09:27. > :09:30.forward would be if the government could agree but I'm not sure that
:09:30. > :09:35.is likely. What are the implications if the British
:09:35. > :09:39.government does not give the Scottish Parliament these section
:09:39. > :09:49.30 Paris and the SNP government says they will call a referendum
:09:49. > :09:53.anywhere -- anyway? It would mean that a section 30 order was made
:09:53. > :10:00.but not approved by the Scottish Parliament. The Scottish Parliament
:10:00. > :10:06.would have actually turned down a grant of powers to hold one defiant
:10:06. > :10:09.of referendum. -- defiance. If that happened and the Scottish
:10:10. > :10:16.Parliament chose to rely on how was it believes are present in the
:10:16. > :10:21.Scottish actor, the referendum almost certainly would not be held.
:10:21. > :10:25.We would see protracted and messy litigation that would involve both
:10:25. > :10:31.the Scottish courts and the UK Supreme Court to determine exactly
:10:31. > :10:35.what those powers are. suggested that the Scottish
:10:35. > :10:42.Government might not be prepared to agree to the section 30 because of
:10:42. > :10:45.the conditions, presumably some of which are being outlined today.
:10:45. > :10:51.What would the sticking point be? The Electoral Commission business
:10:51. > :10:54.has been resolved. Are the SNP going to be to the wall on having
:10:54. > :11:03.two questions rather than one? do not have a framework for holding
:11:03. > :11:08.referendums. They have discretion to the UK Parliament such as the
:11:08. > :11:13.timing and setting of questions. I imagine the Scottish Government's
:11:13. > :11:15.conviction that the Scottish Parliament has hard work to pass
:11:15. > :11:25.the legislation and hold a referendum, then they would also
:11:25. > :11:25.
:11:25. > :11:29.said the question. I imagine they would proceed on that basis. Don't
:11:29. > :11:34.the SNP government also have an obvious, I mean, if they want a
:11:34. > :11:40.referendum to go ahead and not have it bog down in legal disputes,
:11:40. > :11:46.don't they have an obvious interest in doing a deal? I am puzzled as to
:11:46. > :11:51.why it is not possible. I was told both governments have a -- an
:11:51. > :11:59.interest in doing a deal. There is no reason why these issues cannot
:11:59. > :12:03.be sold. The government was elected with a manifesto commitment to hold
:12:03. > :12:12.a referendum, the UK Government sounds like it is happy for it to
:12:12. > :12:18.be organised. If they can't organise on issues of the question
:12:18. > :12:25.of the -- in particular, they will not commit until they have read the
:12:25. > :12:28.consultation findings. Here's a scientific problem, most Scottish
:12:28. > :12:34.science graduates are working as scientists if they are men, but
:12:34. > :12:38.most women have left. That is an issue as we pride ourselves on
:12:38. > :12:41.being a world leader in science. There was a report today which says
:12:41. > :12:51.that there should be a national strategy to stop the talent drain
:12:51. > :12:56.
:12:56. > :13:01.and keep women in science. The Edinburgh International Science
:13:02. > :13:05.Festival is well into its first week. It wants to inspire a new
:13:05. > :13:10.generation of scientists, male and female. Elsewhere in Scottish
:13:10. > :13:13.science, something has gone wrong. From the start a school science,
:13:13. > :13:21.there are some disciplines which seemed to attract boys more than
:13:21. > :13:27.girls. In virtually every subject Area, the story is the same, a long
:13:27. > :13:34.decline in female participation. Because baby key pipeline. -- they
:13:34. > :13:37.call it been leaking pipeline. More than half of the men are still
:13:37. > :13:42.working in the science sectors in which they qualified. For women,
:13:42. > :13:49.that forced to a quarter. The other 73% of women are working elsewhere
:13:49. > :13:54.or not at all. This graph shows how the number of women crops as you go
:13:54. > :13:59.up in seniority... Are a report says that is a loss to Scottish
:13:59. > :14:09.Society and doubling female participation could be worth as
:14:09. > :14:09.
:14:09. > :14:15.much as �100 million a year for the economy. It is perfectly natural if
:14:15. > :14:21.a subject has been developed by men, named by men, run by men, that it
:14:21. > :14:25.will have an ethos work meals are comfortable. It does not mean that
:14:25. > :14:27.females are comfortable. Yet it is very difficult for other men to
:14:27. > :14:34.understand, because they are comfortable, why others should be
:14:34. > :14:38.uncomfortable. The report says there is more than one enemy of
:14:38. > :14:42.female scientific promise. It is not just family pressures. Other
:14:42. > :14:47.factors include the way science and technology are organised and a lack
:14:47. > :14:53.of senior female role models. have to ask why the pipeline is
:14:53. > :14:59.leaking. What is making women drift away? Some of it is the problems of
:14:59. > :15:02.combining family and career. It is not just that. Women who do not
:15:02. > :15:10.have children also progress much more slowly them their male
:15:10. > :15:14.colleagues. There are a number of issues to deal with. The report is
:15:14. > :15:18.calling for change from the UK Government, industry, universities
:15:18. > :15:23.and professional bodies and for the Scottish Government to take the
:15:23. > :15:26.lead with a national strategy to promote women in Scottish science.
:15:26. > :15:31.I will be interested in going to industry and business and asking
:15:31. > :15:36.them, what help do they need? Strategy to me his action. It is
:15:36. > :15:41.not just words in the air, it is practical things you can do. What
:15:41. > :15:45.would industry like to encourage more women to stay in in Science
:15:45. > :15:51.and Engineering? And a love to hear practical suggestions and practical
:15:51. > :15:58.help they might like. -- I would love. Science is a culture in its
:15:58. > :16:02.own right and its sub cultures have various degrees of attractiveness
:16:02. > :16:06.to female scientists. The figures for a Scottish science might make
:16:06. > :16:12.depressing reading but it is worth looking at the wider context. Only
:16:12. > :16:22.about a third of MSPs are women and only about a 5th of MPs. Is this
:16:22. > :16:22.
:16:22. > :16:28.really science's problem? It is not just science. Women are under-
:16:28. > :16:32.represented in all areas of public life, particularly when you move up
:16:32. > :16:40.the hierarchy of jobs, whether in the private, public or voluntary
:16:40. > :16:45.sector -- sector. They start to disappear. It is particularly acute
:16:45. > :16:48.in an lot of areas have science, technology, engineering and mass
:16:48. > :16:53.about is whether concern is. The lessons from trying to promote
:16:53. > :17:00.women in other walks of life are that you really have to take
:17:01. > :17:06.concerted action. Sometimes, science can seem a less
:17:06. > :17:13.than collegiate activity. In 1967, a woman was the first to observe a
:17:13. > :17:19.pulsar. The discovery won a Nobel Prize for two male astronomers.
:17:19. > :17:25.Were she the victim of scientific sexism? The Nobel Prize committee
:17:25. > :17:30.were not interested in students and it was not a case of whether I was
:17:30. > :17:34.a man or woman, I was just a student. It is ironic that science,
:17:35. > :17:41.which by its nature is constantly up to date, should seem so very far
:17:41. > :17:50.behind the times in the way it treats so many women.
:17:50. > :17:59.And the front pages... Megrahi prosecutor to cover -- to become
:17:59. > :18:05.Scottish judge. This refers to Maggie Scott. At the bottom, 12%
:18:05. > :18:11.back devo max option in referendum vote. That is its take on the
:18:11. > :18:18.consultation. Scots to be asked one referendum
:18:18. > :18:28.question, the story from earlier. And the Guardian, Amazon not paying
:18:28. > :18:28.
:18:28. > :18:35.corporation tax in the UK. I will Thankfully the last of the wintry
:18:35. > :18:40.weather is on its way out. A cloudy start in the morning. Let's hope
:18:40. > :18:47.the skies will brighten up. A lovely start of the date in other
:18:47. > :18:50.areas. That is the way it will stay across Northern England. A vast
:18:50. > :18:54.improvement on today. In the Midlands and southern England,
:18:54. > :18:58.after a cloudy start, things will brighten up to some extent. Four
:18:58. > :19:06.South Western parts of England, Devon and Cornwall, one or two
:19:06. > :19:10.showers and still a chilly breeze. Better day across Wales.
:19:10. > :19:13.Temperatures around 10 degrees. For Northern Ireland, and indeed
:19:13. > :19:18.Scotland, things will turn increasingly cloudy with some
:19:18. > :19:25.patchy rain turning up. No great demands, but a cloudy end of the
:19:25. > :19:30.day. Most of the rain to the far north and west. On Friday, lots of
:19:30. > :19:37.cloud around, biggest across Northern Areas with patchy rain.
:19:37. > :19:43.Further south, after a frosty start, mostly dry. The Easter weekend will