0:00:09 > 0:00:13Tonight on Newsnight Scotland: More problems with the new Curriculum
0:00:13 > 0:00:18for Excellence. Is this really all about funding, a timetable of
0:00:18 > 0:00:21reform and ability of teachers to adapt? Or is something much more
0:00:21 > 0:00:26fundamental going wrong? And as local election fever sweeps the
0:00:27 > 0:00:31nation, or maybe not, we look at the battle in Dundee. The city once
0:00:31 > 0:00:36known for jam, jute and journalism, more recently known for being on
0:00:36 > 0:00:40its uppers. But is it on the verge of a renaissance?
0:00:40 > 0:00:44When it comes to the new curriculum, hailed as a revolution in schools,
0:00:44 > 0:00:47only two things are certain. One is that there are problems and two is
0:00:47 > 0:00:51that it is difficult to get to the bottom of what they are. A new
0:00:51 > 0:00:54report casts more doubt on whether the aim of the reforms is clear,
0:00:54 > 0:01:00whether teachers understand them and whether they will be any
0:01:00 > 0:01:03benefit to school students. Scotland's schools might be quiet
0:01:03 > 0:01:07because of the Easter break, but that doesn't mean the education
0:01:07 > 0:01:10debate has gone silent. The survey by Stirling University into the
0:01:10 > 0:01:14Curriculum for Excellence means it is firmly on the front pages.
0:01:14 > 0:01:19Researchers from the School of Education found 56% of teachers
0:01:19 > 0:01:24felt good progress was being made on implementation. But 44% thought
0:01:24 > 0:01:29it could be detrimental to some pupils. 75% of teachers said they
0:01:29 > 0:01:34were in tune with the curriculum's philosophy. 74% said it had
0:01:34 > 0:01:39resulted in an increased workload. A large proportion, 78%, said there
0:01:39 > 0:01:44was not enough central guidance. But 53% said the changes would give
0:01:44 > 0:01:50them greater freedom. 32% were positive about the way the
0:01:50 > 0:01:54curriculum was developing. The key findings in the report from
0:01:54 > 0:02:00Stirling University echo quite strongly our recent survey on
0:02:00 > 0:02:03members, in that it indicated general support for the Curriculum
0:02:03 > 0:02:06for Excellence, but with some concern about implementation,
0:02:06 > 0:02:10particularly in relation to workloads and clear guidance from
0:02:10 > 0:02:14local authorities and Scottish government. It would seem some of
0:02:14 > 0:02:18the Troubles caused by a general lack of understanding about what
0:02:18 > 0:02:23Curriculum for Excellence is all about. When you look at it closely
0:02:23 > 0:02:27it can get a bit woolly. For example, take a four capacities it
0:02:27 > 0:02:32is meant to foster, to make a young person a successful learner, a
0:02:32 > 0:02:35confident individual, a responsible citizen and effective contributor.
0:02:35 > 0:02:38The Scottish government responded by issuing a health warning,
0:02:38 > 0:02:42pointing out that the survey looked at one local authority and was
0:02:42 > 0:02:46carried out last year. That doesn't mean they have not been problems
0:02:46 > 0:02:51with the introduction of Curriculum for Excellence. Look at this
0:02:51 > 0:02:54decade-long timeline. In 2002, back in the days of the Labour and Lib
0:02:54 > 0:02:58Dem coalition at Holyrood, a national consultation pound
0:02:58 > 0:03:02education needed to be more engaging and relevant and led to a
0:03:02 > 0:03:06curriculum review group being set up in 2003 to identify key
0:03:06 > 0:03:10principles. A Curriculum for Excellence was subsequently
0:03:10 > 0:03:16published in November 2004. In 2005, there was a research and review
0:03:16 > 0:03:21process followed by progress and wreck -- proposals published and
0:03:21 > 0:03:24building the curriculum in 2006. By 2007, the SNP had taken no after
0:03:24 > 0:03:29forming a minority government, publishing draft experiences and
0:03:29 > 0:03:35outcomes. After feedback from the University of Glasgow there were
0:03:35 > 0:03:39more refinements. Then, in 2009, the new curriculum guidelines were
0:03:39 > 0:03:42published for implementation. This implementation phase should have
0:03:42 > 0:03:47been completed by last year. But the timetable just keeps on
0:03:47 > 0:03:51slipping. Last year, East Renfrewshire council, which has
0:03:51 > 0:03:54some of Scotland's best state secondaries, announced it was
0:03:54 > 0:03:57delaying the introduction of new qualifications by a year. Soon
0:03:57 > 0:04:02there were rumblings from other qualifications -- a parities
0:04:02 > 0:04:06concerned about the changes. The Education Secretary was forced to
0:04:07 > 0:04:10make a U-turn, while insisting everything was on course. I don't
0:04:10 > 0:04:13think there will be need for delay. I said consistently that I want to
0:04:13 > 0:04:19provide enough support and help to make sure that question of delay
0:04:19 > 0:04:22does not occur. Political opponents like Liz Smith have piled in,
0:04:22 > 0:04:26suggesting that the long time line and recent difficulties showed the
0:04:26 > 0:04:30Scottish government has lost control. I think they have lost
0:04:30 > 0:04:40control of the process and that is very sad. As soon as the case was
0:04:40 > 0:04:41
0:04:41 > 0:04:44made -- for long -- for one local authority to delay it, he did not
0:04:44 > 0:04:48handle it properly. He then had to hold an auditor and I don't think
0:04:48 > 0:04:52it was very satisfactory. It implied he did not know which
0:04:52 > 0:04:57schools were ready. Scotland's schools might be quiet at the
0:04:57 > 0:05:01Easter holidays, but the debate on their future remains a noisy one.
0:05:01 > 0:05:06Lindsey Patterson is the presenter of education policy at the
0:05:06 > 0:05:09University of Edinburgh. In the studio is Brian Boyd, professor of
0:05:09 > 0:05:14education and co-founder of the tapestry Partnership, a teacher
0:05:14 > 0:05:19Development Organisation. Lindsey Patterson, are they new problems
0:05:19 > 0:05:23with his curriculum, in your view? Procedural, about teaching the
0:05:23 > 0:05:27teachers, whether there is enough funding to teach it and all the
0:05:27 > 0:05:32rest of it? Or is there something more fundamental at issue? I don't
0:05:32 > 0:05:37think it is just process, lack of funding or lack of time. These are
0:05:37 > 0:05:41obviously important issues, but the fundamental issue is twofold. It's
0:05:41 > 0:05:45not clear what this is about at all, and secondly, insofar as it is
0:05:45 > 0:05:48clear, it seems to challenge some of the basic reasons why we have
0:05:48 > 0:05:54schooling at all, handing on knowledge and wisdom to the next
0:05:54 > 0:05:58generation, both of which seem to be absent from the guidelines.
0:05:58 > 0:06:02second point, it is pretty damning, isn't it? Well, it is confirmed by
0:06:02 > 0:06:05many of the teachers responding to the Stirling University report and
0:06:05 > 0:06:09many other pieces of evidence over the years, there is great concern
0:06:09 > 0:06:13in secondary schools that knowledge is being displaced. It is about
0:06:13 > 0:06:17skills, competence and readiness for work, rather than thinking,
0:06:17 > 0:06:21what have been the great ideas that have been refined over the
0:06:21 > 0:06:26centuries and what responsibility do we have for making sure that
0:06:26 > 0:06:30they are passed on? That is pretty damning? Yes, but it is not
0:06:30 > 0:06:35accurate. There is nothing in Curriculum for Excellence at says
0:06:35 > 0:06:39that knowledge is being devalued. I don't know where he get that idea
0:06:39 > 0:06:47from. Can I give you a clue where he might be getting it from? Can I
0:06:47 > 0:06:54quote from the Report? We want -- warned against approaches that damn
0:06:54 > 0:06:58great knowledge in favour of skills development. Elsewhere, they
0:06:58 > 0:07:02referred to a survey of teachers, again, I quote, knowledge is
0:07:02 > 0:07:08disappearing from the curriculum because of the new focus in skills.
0:07:08 > 0:07:10But stating that does not make it true. There is nothing within the
0:07:10 > 0:07:14documentation that says that knowledge is not important. Quite
0:07:14 > 0:07:20the contrary. What we are trying to do was have young people go through
0:07:20 > 0:07:24the system with deep Lorna -- learning. I don't want to put too
0:07:24 > 0:07:33much store on this, it was just one local authority. What they are
0:07:33 > 0:07:38saying is that even if you are right, then you have got it wrong
0:07:38 > 0:07:42if teachers think the opposite is the case. I've just looked at a set
0:07:43 > 0:07:47of statistics on the monitor. It said 75% of teachers were generally
0:07:47 > 0:07:50in favour of the philosophy of Curriculum for Excellence. I'm not
0:07:50 > 0:07:56sure whether disconnect is happening. If there were people
0:07:56 > 0:07:59with in the secondary that have those fears, we have to discuss it,
0:07:59 > 0:08:03debated and debate whether the nature of the subject is being
0:08:03 > 0:08:06devalued. These things are not insurmountable. Every single
0:08:06 > 0:08:08curriculum reform we have had since the Second World War has
0:08:08 > 0:08:14encountered difficulties of this kind. There is nothing surprising
0:08:14 > 0:08:18in that report. Plenty Patterson, do you think there is substance to
0:08:18 > 0:08:23this idea that knowledge is being degraded? At other people's stock
0:08:23 > 0:08:27what are these skills? They are extremely vague. There are the four
0:08:27 > 0:08:31capacities which the report highlighted, about being effective
0:08:31 > 0:08:34contributors and that kind of stuff. There is also a lot of mind-numbing
0:08:34 > 0:08:39detail in the documents about the various skills that are allegedly
0:08:39 > 0:08:43required in the world of work. What you don't find here is any system
0:08:43 > 0:08:47setting out the major ideas in our civilisation that we want to pass
0:08:47 > 0:08:53on. Yes, there was a lot of incredibly detailed bits and pieces
0:08:53 > 0:08:58of knowledge. But they are fragmented. There's nothing like in
0:08:58 > 0:09:02the previous system that was recommended by all of the reforms.
0:09:02 > 0:09:06A lot of parents watching this will be slightly worried. Let's go back
0:09:06 > 0:09:10to the report. Another quote, secondary schools seem to be
0:09:11 > 0:09:16constrained by ingrained notions that the primary purpose of
0:09:16 > 0:09:19learning was a perceived need to prepare pupils for exams. If the
0:09:19 > 0:09:24only point being made is that there is more to life than exams, fair
0:09:24 > 0:09:28enough. But if it is a major problem that teachers think that
0:09:28 > 0:09:32one of their main goals is, particularly for things like S4, to
0:09:32 > 0:09:36get STDs to exams, that is what they should be doing? -- get
0:09:37 > 0:09:40students through exams. There is a fundamental issue, I take it you
0:09:40 > 0:09:45think that getting people through exams is the panic of what the
0:09:45 > 0:09:48education system should achieve for. I didn't say that. I said I could
0:09:48 > 0:09:52understand if the point is that the world is not just about exams. It's
0:09:52 > 0:09:57not what I think, it's a question of what universities, who might be
0:09:57 > 0:10:00considering admitting the students to study with them think. And what
0:10:00 > 0:10:03employers who might be considering giving them a job think. This stuff
0:10:03 > 0:10:13about holistic development doesn't cut much ice with university
0:10:13 > 0:10:15
0:10:15 > 0:10:18That is interesting. An employer was telling me yesterday that was
0:10:18 > 0:10:24exactly what he wanted. He wanted young people to come who had skills
0:10:24 > 0:10:28as well as knowledge, who could interact socially. They cannot read
0:10:28 > 0:10:31properly order with arithmetic. This get back to exams. One of the
0:10:31 > 0:10:35biggest criticisms you can make of our system is that young people can
0:10:35 > 0:10:38get through our exams and do very well with the minimum of
0:10:38 > 0:10:42understanding, with superficial knowledge. Curriculum for
0:10:42 > 0:10:46excellence is saying let's go for understanding, deep knowledge,
0:10:46 > 0:10:51let's allow young Kabul to delve more deeply into the knowledge that
0:10:51 > 0:10:56Linsey quite rightly says is important. Then people can simply
0:10:56 > 0:11:06skim across the surface. Do you accept that? I can accept that
0:11:06 > 0:11:10there is a criticism about exams. We can get into a debate about the
0:11:10 > 0:11:13value of exams. The main thing about this is if you look at that
0:11:13 > 0:11:18detailed draft syllabuses which have come out of the new exams they
0:11:18 > 0:11:22are astonishingly traditional. There is nothing exciting more
0:11:22 > 0:11:28innovative for which conforms to the big ideas. They are mind-
0:11:28 > 0:11:33numbingly boring. Coming back to this report. One of the things they
0:11:34 > 0:11:37say... The researchers are on your side by and large. They say one of
0:11:37 > 0:11:41the barriers to developing curriculum for excellence is local
0:11:41 > 0:11:45authority accountability systems, that over-emphasise attainment. In
0:11:45 > 0:11:50other words, this irrational of entasis of local authorities on
0:11:50 > 0:11:53whether the schools that they are running are any good or not. Given
0:11:53 > 0:11:58that you don't propose any metrics that local authorities can use to
0:11:59 > 0:12:02measure schools, other than attainment, exam attainment, what a
0:12:02 > 0:12:05local authorities are supposed to do? I think there is a fundamental
0:12:05 > 0:12:09issue here about the word attainment. It seems to me
0:12:09 > 0:12:13attainment is a subset of achievement and in the past, our
0:12:13 > 0:12:18system has narrowly focused its outcomes on attainment, things you
0:12:18 > 0:12:24cannot measure by tests. However you look at education, education
0:12:24 > 0:12:28must be about more than bad. Everybody accepts education is
0:12:28 > 0:12:30about more than that, I think. The problem is if you are a local
0:12:31 > 0:12:35authority or university or employer, you have to have something you can
0:12:35 > 0:12:40measure. If he cannot have people turning up and saying, I'm as good
0:12:40 > 0:12:44as she is or she is as good as he is because we've got a fuzzy
0:12:44 > 0:12:48feeling. That's right. The great challenge to achieve the admirable
0:12:48 > 0:12:52things that Brian is talking about is to form types of assessments
0:12:52 > 0:12:57which are valid at tests these things. It is not to ditch
0:12:57 > 0:13:00assessment. It attempts to be neutral, non biased against people
0:13:00 > 0:13:05because of their gender, social class, that is the point. Are you
0:13:05 > 0:13:09doing that? One of the quiet revolutions that is taking place
0:13:09 > 0:13:13alongside curriculum for excellence in schools is something called
0:13:13 > 0:13:16assessment for Learning, which looks at assessments in all their
0:13:16 > 0:13:20forms, asking for a better balance. There is no sense in which
0:13:20 > 0:13:23curriculum flex and so saying that we don't need to assess or you
0:13:23 > 0:13:26should and a says it all. It is saying simply, led so says the
0:13:26 > 0:13:32things that matter and not just the things you can write about in
0:13:32 > 0:13:36examinations. Assessment is still National. One of the key issues
0:13:36 > 0:13:39here is you've got superimposed upon the curriculum for excellence
0:13:39 > 0:13:43a tendency to be very conservative when it comes to examinations and
0:13:43 > 0:13:49so on. But is something we have to look at. We will have to leave it
0:13:49 > 0:13:52there. Now to the first in our series
0:13:52 > 0:13:54looking at the forthcoming local elections from a number of places
0:13:54 > 0:13:57across the country. First up, the self styled City of Discovery,
0:13:57 > 0:14:00Dundee. Traditionally a place of jam, jute and journalism, more
0:14:00 > 0:14:03recently it's been better known for its social problems. But could it
0:14:03 > 0:14:06be on the brink of a much better future? The administration is
0:14:06 > 0:14:16currently an SNP minority, which they hope to turn into a majority.
0:14:16 > 0:14:36
0:14:36 > 0:14:39But that won't happen if Labour I hope you're hungry. As part of my
0:14:39 > 0:14:46tour of the forthcoming local elections, I've come to Dundee to
0:14:46 > 0:14:49gauge the views of these women. Sometimes they don't use the
0:14:49 > 0:14:54Riverside for the right things. You've got Tesco, which is fine,
0:14:54 > 0:15:00but it is such a beautiful view that it seems to me they are faint
0:15:00 > 0:15:04-- maintaining an industrial feel. There is a lot here in terms of
0:15:04 > 0:15:08arts and culture and I agree with valve that they could do better
0:15:08 > 0:15:12with the riverside area. It's a shame, they could do something
0:15:12 > 0:15:18instead of just Tesco. It is very honest about itself. It is what it
0:15:18 > 0:15:21is. They said that we made a real mess in the 60s and 70s with the
0:15:21 > 0:15:24buildings, we are going to tear them down and start again. They
0:15:25 > 0:15:28took quite a gamble with putting the contemporary arts centre in
0:15:28 > 0:15:33when they did. They did that 10 years ago and I think 10 years ago,
0:15:33 > 0:15:38for Dundee, that was a gamble. There was nothing like that here.
0:15:38 > 0:15:41It was post-industrial, and they think they thought right, why not?
0:15:41 > 0:15:51It can't make it any worse. It has made it substantially better. The
0:15:51 > 0:15:53
0:15:54 > 0:15:57Tease it out so you are making it find a full Stock Susie runs a
0:15:57 > 0:16:05craft business in the book -- in the City. They are teaching me how
0:16:05 > 0:16:15to make balls. Have they feel of my it felt ball. I bet you say that to
0:16:15 > 0:16:29
0:16:29 > 0:16:38all the boys! Squeeze it and it I think you are done. What do you
0:16:38 > 0:16:42think? I like a big piece in the middle. So you're saying, you could
0:16:42 > 0:16:47do better! I think you've done very well. You're just patronising me
0:16:47 > 0:16:53now. Done Devonians are stripping away their industrial past, in
0:16:53 > 0:16:57favour of a shiny, modern city, better in science, education and
0:16:57 > 0:17:01creativity. I caught up with some of the people who were helping with
0:17:01 > 0:17:04these changes. There are a lot of poor people and there are a lot of
0:17:04 > 0:17:07people without jobs in Dundee. That needs addressing but I think it is
0:17:07 > 0:17:12being addressed. We are heading in the right direction. The creative
0:17:12 > 0:17:17side of the city is really important and that because to want
0:17:17 > 0:17:20to locate in the City, the middle management and the upper management,
0:17:20 > 0:17:25they want a nice place to live, they want nice things to go and see
0:17:25 > 0:17:27and to run things like that. So that attracts people. A as I grow
0:17:27 > 0:17:31up and went through university in Aberdeen, nothing would have
0:17:31 > 0:17:36persuaded me to come and work in Dundee because of the repetition I
0:17:36 > 0:17:39believed at that time that it had. In 2003, has persuaded to come and
0:17:39 > 0:17:45have a look at the university and have quite frankly never looked
0:17:45 > 0:17:48back. It is a university both in terms of the Medical School and the
0:17:49 > 0:17:55have visited it has enormous flexibility and enormous creativity
0:17:55 > 0:18:00and is not afraid to be different. I only have 15 worth -- 15 years'
0:18:00 > 0:18:03worth in the City but I've had a sense of it changing. It feels
0:18:03 > 0:18:06fresh and different to are the places I've been in Scotland or
0:18:06 > 0:18:11bigger cities like Glasgow and London, where everything feels
0:18:11 > 0:18:18quite crowded and it is very businesslike. It feels much more
0:18:18 > 0:18:22like a community here. Despite a revolution going on, the City still
0:18:22 > 0:18:26faces major challengers. Unemployment stands at 6%. The
0:18:26 > 0:18:34Scottish average is 4.4 %. It is vital we can find jobs for people
0:18:34 > 0:18:38with a range of skills. Dundee is regenerating and coming up again.
0:18:38 > 0:18:45For a while, it was going down words for loss of a lot of
0:18:45 > 0:18:52manufacturing. We lost NCR, the National Cash Registers. They
0:18:52 > 0:18:57closed it down and send the work to China, I think, or Poland. That was
0:18:57 > 0:19:05a loss. That was a huge loss for jobs. What is not working quite so
0:19:05 > 0:19:11what? I'm not going to say it! Drugs! There is a drug problem in
0:19:11 > 0:19:14Dundee. There is a drug problem. It doesn't matter where you go. Most
0:19:15 > 0:19:19entertainment now, like the pictures and ice rinks are on the
0:19:19 > 0:19:22perimeter of Dundee. Most people cannot get from the east to the
0:19:22 > 0:19:27West without having to come in from the east of the city into the
0:19:27 > 0:19:33centre, change of bus and go out to the West. My dog took part of his
0:19:33 > 0:19:41training in Dundee so he knows the city better than I do. Perhaps too
0:19:41 > 0:19:45well! The transformation of the Dundee skyline has happened over
0:19:45 > 0:19:51the last 12 years and worth the New Victoria and Albert Museum on the
0:19:51 > 0:19:55way, is likely to change even further. I'm now leaving Dundee and