:00:13. > :00:19.or, we will see more things coming Tonight, his prison the right place
:00:19. > :00:29.for female offenders? We will hear from the former Lord Advocate who
:00:29. > :00:29.
:00:29. > :00:33.wants Cornton Vale to be shut down. We have been to Moray to find out
:00:33. > :00:36.if the closure of RAF Kinloss and the problems in the local fishing
:00:36. > :00:39.industry will affect the local elections.
:00:40. > :00:45.Female prisoners are more likely to be mentally ill, or addicted to
:00:45. > :00:50.drugs and alcohol than their male counterparts. The majority are
:00:50. > :00:56.serving short sentences for low- level crimes. A study by the former
:00:56. > :01:06.lord advocate, golf, wants Cornton Vale to be demolished and offenders
:01:06. > :01:08.
:01:08. > :01:14.dealt with outside prison. Remember this blast from the past?
:01:14. > :01:18.Prison works. It ensures that we are protected from murderers,
:01:19. > :01:23.muggers, and rapists. Prison working, and being tough on crime
:01:23. > :01:28.were always popular with the Tory conferences. The message has a
:01:28. > :01:32.wider resonance with the public. The trouble is that judging from
:01:32. > :01:42.reoffending rates, prison doesn't work, but doing something about it
:01:42. > :01:42.
:01:42. > :01:49.can be a political minefield. In recent times Ken Clarke and Kenny
:01:49. > :01:58.MacAskill of the SNP have both tried to argue for more non-
:01:58. > :02:03.custodial sentences. Arguing that sentencing does not work. That
:02:03. > :02:11.leads to the accusation of being soft on crime. Here that Cornton
:02:11. > :02:19.Vale, in Stirling, there are some pretty drastic facts about the
:02:19. > :02:24.female population. It has more than doubled in the last decade, 70 --
:02:24. > :02:31.scented by percent of sentences are for less than six months. Unless
:02:31. > :02:37.these issues are addressed, Keegan in prison indefinitely, or release
:02:37. > :02:42.them. -- keep them in prison. We know what works, there is evidence,
:02:42. > :02:45.we are not able to do it because of the structures, the working
:02:45. > :02:51.practices, they are designed in such a way that they are not
:02:51. > :02:55.targeting the chaotic nature of these women's lives. There are
:02:55. > :03:00.alternative kinds of intervention, it is backed up by this former
:03:00. > :03:04.offender, who has been helping at a centre in Glasgow. You need
:03:04. > :03:14.something to get up for in the morning. Instead of drugs, you need
:03:14. > :03:16.
:03:16. > :03:20.something to do. I have been working for 218. A special
:03:20. > :03:27.commission of one former offenders chaired by a Dame Elish Angiolini
:03:27. > :03:29.has been looking at this issue. Their solutions are pretty radical.
:03:29. > :03:37.The Commission on Women Offenders recommends that Cornton Vale should
:03:37. > :03:41.be demolished and made way for specialist units. They think he
:03:41. > :03:45.should be replaced have a smaller prison for long-term offenders.
:03:45. > :03:50.This is by no means the first report with strong recommendations
:03:50. > :03:55.into the future of Cornton Vale, the next stage is maybe the most
:03:55. > :03:58.difficult, getting it through the political process. The report are
:03:58. > :04:05.now LANs on the desk of the Scottish it justice secretary,
:04:05. > :04:11.Kenny MacAskill. Opponents are already having their say, some four,
:04:11. > :04:15.some against. Some of these women have committed very serious crimes,
:04:15. > :04:21.judges have decided that custodial sentences are the most appropriate
:04:21. > :04:27.form of punishment, it is important that justice is seen to be done.
:04:27. > :04:34.Any idea that they should be set free, because it is a less serious,
:04:34. > :04:40.that is not acceptable to me, or wider society as a whole.
:04:40. > :04:43.question is, are we happy that many women, with serious illnesses, and
:04:43. > :04:53.substance of these problems are in prison at the moment, we should be
:04:53. > :04:54.
:04:54. > :04:58.happy about full? -- at the moment? We should not be happy about that.
:04:58. > :05:08.There will always be some women, because of the seriousness of their
:05:08. > :05:12.crimes, have to be imprisoned. But some women should not be there, at
:05:12. > :05:20.there are other ways. Whether Cornton Vale's days are numbered
:05:20. > :05:25.not only depends on these reports, but the art of the political system.
:05:25. > :05:28.Earlier I spoke to the former Lord Advocate, who chaired the
:05:29. > :05:37.commission, I put it to her that what was missing were proposals to
:05:37. > :05:44.change the law in order to make her ideas happen. There are a number of
:05:44. > :05:54.propositions in changing the law. The composite sentence, which would
:05:54. > :05:54.
:05:54. > :06:02.be a hybrid, which is a first, the ability of a judge to keep tabs on
:06:02. > :06:05.and have -- on an individual, they cannot find that what they are
:06:05. > :06:15.doing, making sure they're not just smoking cigarettes and watching
:06:15. > :06:17.
:06:17. > :06:21.television. They would have to wonder take -- undertake a
:06:21. > :06:31.programme of reform. The unless attitudes change, nothing much will
:06:31. > :06:33.
:06:33. > :06:39.change. You either have to change attitudes, or change laws. You seem
:06:39. > :06:47.to refer to that any report, there has been a different of former
:06:47. > :06:55.sentencing in specialise the drug courts. -- a different form. There
:06:55. > :06:59.are different attitudes. What international research shows, and a
:06:59. > :07:04.wad problem-solving quarter showed, is that where judges interact, and
:07:05. > :07:08.take a very direct interest in the sentencing, and maintain a managing
:07:09. > :07:18.of the sentence, the effect can be very sick of a dent in terms of
:07:19. > :07:23.
:07:23. > :07:28.rehabilitation. -- seed significance. They gave a mandate
:07:28. > :07:38.for sherbets and judges to take the view that following a sentence
:07:38. > :07:48.should be taken? I don't think you need to change the law, you need an
:07:48. > :07:53.understanding of what works. There is a lack of confidence inside the
:07:53. > :07:59.Community and the systems which are present. It is a chicken and egg
:07:59. > :08:07.situation. You have to measure their systems, and demonstrate they
:08:07. > :08:12.can make an impact. The committee needs to have a conference in the
:08:12. > :08:21.systems. You need a strong community justice service.
:08:21. > :08:28.problem is, as you yourself say, yours is one of many reports. We
:08:28. > :08:32.have been talking about this for years? Yes. The number of prisoners
:08:33. > :08:38.in jail has doubled. That is why the time has now come when
:08:38. > :08:47.something must happen. It is not the case, as one commentator
:08:47. > :08:50.suggested, are not rushing into it. -- of not rushing into it. It is
:08:50. > :08:56.not that people are not working hard, they are working in different
:08:56. > :09:01.directions. In many women's prisons, they have services coming from over
:09:01. > :09:04.100 organisations to one prison. Managing that, their role providing
:09:04. > :09:08.different services, prisoners in different areas, different
:09:08. > :09:13.programmes, not measured, not researched, it might look good, but
:09:13. > :09:20.what we need to do, he is say, it is good, it works. The trouble with
:09:20. > :09:30.this is, I am not disputing some of the things you saying report, but
:09:30. > :09:35.
:09:35. > :09:40.is -- but I cannot count the number reports that I have read. It is a
:09:40. > :09:45.common a theme, nothing seems to change. I can't speak for other
:09:45. > :09:53.areas of government, one of the common features you find is that
:09:53. > :10:01.there are differences because of a lack of collaboration. We saw a
:10:01. > :10:06.vacuum in terms of leadership. We need leadership and drive to get
:10:06. > :10:12.this programme moving, which evidence suggests it does work, to
:10:12. > :10:18.convince judges, to convince the public that this is a far better
:10:18. > :10:26.position to being and having prisoners in a default position. --
:10:26. > :10:36.to be in a ban have. There are a number of women with a significant
:10:36. > :10:38.
:10:38. > :10:43.drug problems. -- with a significant a drug problem. Your
:10:43. > :10:48.proposal to close Cornton Vale, and replace it with something else, my
:10:48. > :10:53.remark would-be is unless you have convince the judges, and convince
:10:53. > :10:59.the public, as you have not, if you close Cornton Vale, all he will get
:10:59. > :11:05.is overcrowding in local prisons? We are not suggesting knocking it
:11:05. > :11:11.down and not replacing it. We are talking about a small unit. Units
:11:11. > :11:16.that are based in the community. They will allow women who have been
:11:16. > :11:24.very short time to be given an effective programme through multi-
:11:25. > :11:28.discipline working. Not just a third sector, but working in
:11:28. > :11:32.collaboration, so that they go there and they are supervised in a
:11:32. > :11:38.very intensive way, which is not happening to them at the moment.
:11:38. > :11:48.There are very few projects which show an element of success. Do we
:11:48. > :11:50.
:11:50. > :11:56.will -- do we require legislation to change it judges' opinions?
:11:56. > :12:01.is not up to them. It is. They bore, quite rightly say, thank you very
:12:01. > :12:05.much, I'm very interested, I will do what I think is a correct
:12:05. > :12:10.interpretation of the law, no matter what you say. If you change
:12:10. > :12:19.to law, they will interpret it as they want. The law is the catalyst
:12:20. > :12:29.for change, that will be done by a these composite sentences. That
:12:30. > :12:31.
:12:31. > :12:36.will give a message to the judiciary. The sentencing is
:12:36. > :12:42.something which they have to be accountable for. Why do you think
:12:42. > :12:48.there has been a doubling in the number of women in prison? Crime
:12:48. > :12:53.has gone down. It has. That is why it is so difficult. More women are
:12:53. > :12:56.going to prison, there have been suggestions that judges were
:12:56. > :13:03.sending warning to prison are disproportionately, there is no
:13:03. > :13:07.evidence to support that. More women are surviving he never had
:13:07. > :13:12.very significant drug addictions, and you see them later on, they
:13:12. > :13:17.have anti-social behaviour, they are surviving and coming into
:13:17. > :13:24.prison as a revolving door. Prison does not do with their problems, it
:13:24. > :13:28.doesn't stop them offending, he -- a cost a lot of money. We need to
:13:28. > :13:36.be able to do with bad behaviour, we need a better alternative.
:13:36. > :13:43.I'm joined how from Edinburgh by Kirsty Pate who is the manager of
:13:43. > :13:50.the Willow project, which deals with women offenders. On I am
:13:51. > :14:00.curious to get any idea of the kind of women that are presumably former
:14:00. > :14:06.offenders, there to deal with? service that I work for, this
:14:06. > :14:10.service in Edinburgh, it is led by the NHS and we work in partnership
:14:10. > :14:14.with the criminal-justice Social Work programme in Edinburgh Council,
:14:14. > :14:20.and we work with people involved in the criminal-justice system and
:14:20. > :14:25.maybe still actively offending when we start to work with them. Does
:14:25. > :14:31.the picture that we have just had presented in that report tie with
:14:31. > :14:35.your experience that to the types of problems these women in your
:14:35. > :14:42.experience have? In general, these women involved in the criminal-
:14:42. > :14:47.justice system tends to have a high prevalence of abuse, child is
:14:47. > :14:52.sexual abuse and have experienced abuse and have had a mental health
:14:52. > :14:56.problems and substance misuse problems, so the picture to date
:14:56. > :15:02.from the report is very much what we see in this service on a day-to-
:15:02. > :15:07.day basis. One of the statistics on today's report was that 71 % of
:15:07. > :15:13.these women said they had committed the crime they were there for
:15:13. > :15:19.committing while high on drugs and that seems to tie in with your
:15:19. > :15:24.experience. Do you see any point of sending any of these people to jail,
:15:24. > :15:32.as opposed to treating them for drug problems? Certainly, some of
:15:32. > :15:34.these services in the community that work with women in the
:15:34. > :15:42.community in a dressing addiction problems, addressing issues around
:15:42. > :15:46.poverty. Are you able to treat people for drug addiction?
:15:46. > :15:50.service has to support people that do not offer a prescribing service,
:15:50. > :15:56.but we have them to access the disease that they struggled to
:15:56. > :16:03.access. -- we help them. We get them to continue to attend
:16:03. > :16:08.appointments for substance misuse. As our service provides a range of
:16:08. > :16:18.different of activity is... some oblique, you were trying to
:16:18. > :16:18.
:16:18. > :16:22.get a different results by what? Women that getting bored with you
:16:22. > :16:28.do not reoffend and gets it back in prison? That his idealistic and we
:16:28. > :16:32.do have women that move on from our service and need more positive
:16:32. > :16:35.lifestyles and are not involved in offending any more. But we have to
:16:35. > :16:41.remember that some of these women that we work with have got very
:16:41. > :16:46.complex backgrounds, as has just been referred to, and had been in
:16:46. > :16:50.and out of custody for decades, and it takes a long time and a
:16:50. > :16:59.sophisticated response in order to seize offending, it is not short
:16:59. > :17:01.term. Thank you. Ian Hamilton continues his series
:17:02. > :17:07.looking at the forthcoming local election around the country. He has
:17:07. > :17:11.been to Moray where a coalition of Conservatives independent
:17:11. > :17:15.councillors hold power. The closure of RAF Kinloss and the future of
:17:15. > :17:25.RAF Lossiemouth have had a future on the economy, but will it affect
:17:25. > :17:39.
:17:39. > :17:42.the election? -- had an effect on For these the budding black belts,
:17:42. > :17:51.when the eventually leave school, they have some big decisions to
:17:51. > :17:58.make. Do they stay and try and make a live here or do they need and
:17:58. > :18:03.seek out there fortune as were? They have to go away and leave the
:18:03. > :18:09.area to study, so sometimes, they come back to the club, sometimes
:18:09. > :18:13.they do not. There are not many apprenticeships, there is not a lot
:18:13. > :18:21.of employment in this area have. A lot of children come out of school
:18:21. > :18:24.and struggle for jobs. It is kind of running down a bit more now, but
:18:24. > :18:31.it has got lots of countryside editor is a great place to bring up
:18:31. > :18:36.children, definitely. -- and it is a great place. It is easy to
:18:36. > :18:39.understand how people love living in Moray so much. Algar might only
:18:39. > :18:43.be one hour from Inverness or 90 minutes from Aberdeen, but living
:18:43. > :18:50.in this area has its drawbacks. What would you change about the
:18:50. > :18:54.area if you could? Probably the road system is not very good. We
:18:54. > :18:59.could do with the dual carriageway. As well as poor transport links,
:18:59. > :19:02.the main gripe when I caught up with these musicians here was the
:19:02. > :19:08.decimation of their traditional industries like fisheries. They
:19:08. > :19:13.have also lost one of their two military air bases at RAF Kinloss
:19:13. > :19:18.leaving only RAF Lossiemouth which has left a bad effect on the
:19:18. > :19:21.economy. A lot of businesses depended done the RAF for
:19:21. > :19:26.employment and customers and the local schools and hospitals had all
:19:26. > :19:31.of the RAF wives in them teaching or helping and nursing, so it has
:19:32. > :19:36.been a big blow to this area. lost the fishing industry and that
:19:36. > :19:46.used to be a huge industry when I first went to RAF Lossiemouth. They
:19:46. > :19:53.used to be 100 boats in the harbour. That was a huge challenge. This is
:19:53. > :20:00.a family fish business. The smell of fish in the shop wasn't
:20:00. > :20:05.unpleasant, but as I waded through fish guts in the preparation area,
:20:05. > :20:08.the stench was overwhelming. They process two tons of fish every day.
:20:08. > :20:16.My love for their started this business many years ago and they
:20:16. > :20:23.had been years since I was 16. -- my father started this business.
:20:23. > :20:28.Many of the Bowes is that supply him have gone. -- many of the boats.
:20:28. > :20:33.We can manage ourselves, but sometimes we go further and further
:20:33. > :20:37.away to get fish, so it is all about the changes. There are less
:20:38. > :20:43.boats catching the fish. A lot of the jobs in Moray are low paid and
:20:43. > :20:46.the wages that 5% lower than the Scottish average. There are younger
:20:47. > :20:51.people wanting to do the factory job so it is difficult to get local
:20:51. > :20:57.staff to do the job. A lot of the factories locally have foreign
:20:58. > :21:03.people working for them. 75 % of companies in Moray are small,
:21:03. > :21:06.family enterprises and in many ways, people's affection and commitment