:00:15. > :00:19.Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, Donald Trump makes his progress
:00:19. > :00:26.into the Scottish Parliament. He has made his arguments against win
:00:26. > :00:33.power and the government. Might he actually have a point? Was a
:00:33. > :00:39.tonight, automated electronic counting. Having got it right this
:00:39. > :00:49.time? Good evening. The Donald Trump circus arrived at Holyrood
:00:49. > :00:59.today. It was described as the most in but exciting thing ever seen at
:00:59. > :01:04.
:01:04. > :01:09.He did not have this rump -- rap song playing in the back row, but
:01:09. > :01:19.Donald Trump knows how to make next -- entrance. Think you for joining
:01:19. > :01:19.
:01:19. > :01:29.us. The economy, energy and tourism committee has never been so popular.
:01:29. > :01:33.
:01:33. > :01:38.The reason? The tycoon, his golf I am all for renewable energy.
:01:38. > :01:46.believe in tide technology and I think you have great opportunities
:01:47. > :01:52.for other things and other forms of energy. But wind turbines, made in
:01:52. > :01:57.China, are going to be the destruction, and almost a total
:01:57. > :02:01.destruction, of the tourism industry. The committee room could
:02:01. > :02:07.not take everyone, so some reporters and photographers at be
:02:07. > :02:12.accommodated elsewhere. If I spoke to people in your community, they
:02:12. > :02:16.did not be happy. He has been given his evidence based on this document
:02:16. > :02:24.but he has already submitted to the committee. We will see how it turns
:02:24. > :02:29.out. Will he be calling the first minister mad Alex? I spend this
:02:29. > :02:34.money, and now I might regret it. After I invested tremendous amount
:02:34. > :02:40.of money in this, and completed it, then this starts to come. I think
:02:40. > :02:44.it has a terrible way to treat a person investing tens of millions
:02:44. > :02:49.of pounds in Scotland. When I first got involved, there were 10 miles
:02:49. > :02:57.away, then they were three miles away, now they are one mile away.
:02:57. > :03:07.One mile is not even a sea wind. It is really on the coast. The concept
:03:07. > :03:12.
:03:12. > :03:21.of a wind turbine wind one buy-out Time for another classic trump
:03:21. > :03:30.entrants -- entrance. He was in danger of becoming Mad Alex. In
:03:30. > :03:39.Britain weeks, the first minister has been described as a Mad Alex.
:03:39. > :03:49.didn't say that, you did. Now there are stories going round calling in
:03:49. > :03:52.Scotland's Hitler. You're like him? Yes. I think he is misguided. If
:03:52. > :03:59.you spent this sort of money on wind farms, I think Scotland will
:03:59. > :04:01.have no money, they will be in a disastrous state. They will be
:04:01. > :04:10.unable in five years to replace these horrendous things that they
:04:10. > :04:14.have built, when the UK stops subsidising, Scotland will go broke.
:04:14. > :04:21.One anti--Trump documentary maker said it was the golf course that
:04:21. > :04:29.was the real problem. It is one of the worst environmental crimes in
:04:29. > :04:34.history. He has got a failed documentary. Let Mr Trump answer
:04:34. > :04:39.the question. He said he was the evidence, such was his expertise in
:04:39. > :04:43.tourism, and he would not build the hotel part of his golf complex if
:04:43. > :04:53.it had to look into the face of wind turbines? Then it was time to
:04:53. > :05:00.
:05:00. > :05:04.go. The circus should never stay What was it like in the line of the
:05:04. > :05:09.Donald Trump storm? There was sorting -- there was a lot of heat
:05:09. > :05:14.and colour at the committee meeting today, I wasn't sure that there was
:05:14. > :05:18.a lot of light, and we didn't learn more than we already knew on wind
:05:18. > :05:22.power and renewable energy, but I think what this has done is created
:05:22. > :05:32.a level of public interest in the work of the parliamentary committee
:05:32. > :05:36.on renewable energy. I think that is a positive thing. Outside,
:05:36. > :05:46.protesters both against her bines and dump -- Trump made their point
:05:46. > :05:46.
:05:46. > :05:54.known. This man is becoming some -- something of a local hero. But pro
:05:55. > :06:01.wind farm... I don't think there was much interest in what Mr Trump
:06:01. > :06:07.was saying. He is clearly a sceptic of climate change. It is baffling
:06:07. > :06:13.as to why he was at the Scottish Parliament at all. Then it was time
:06:13. > :06:20.to say farewell. Both have a puppet and to the one who likes to pull
:06:20. > :06:30.the strings. I am joined now by Mark Gibson, who was giving
:06:30. > :06:34.evidence, and by the green MSP Patrick Harvey. I note that you
:06:34. > :06:40.have some sympathy with his arguments, but he is the master of
:06:40. > :06:48.overstatement, isn't he? probably is, but what he has done
:06:48. > :06:54.is to bring the whole subject and debate to a fork, and I think it is
:06:54. > :07:00.a good thing. Patrick Harvey, particularly on Donald Trump, you
:07:00. > :07:10.could argue that this is a glorified case of not in my
:07:10. > :07:12.
:07:12. > :07:16.backyard. These turbines are parked right next to his golf course.
:07:16. > :07:20.Singh has this got his government was so keen to promote the
:07:20. > :07:26.development, why can't they just shift the turbines? They already
:07:26. > :07:31.have been discussions about adapting and changing the proposals
:07:31. > :07:36.of offshore wind deployment South - - centres, and the response has
:07:36. > :07:41.been measured, as they usually are, describing the odd change here and
:07:41. > :07:45.there. The developer responsible for listening to beckon for --
:07:45. > :07:49.concerns. Mr Trump has a very different attitude to development.
:07:50. > :07:53.When you do not get your way, you pick up the bone to the first
:07:53. > :07:57.minister and say give me what I want or a walk away. He does not
:07:57. > :08:01.seem to understand the democratic planning process, and I'm sorry to
:08:01. > :08:08.see -- say that Alex Salmond did not understand either. But he is
:08:09. > :08:11.making a fuss. He committed gigantic bust. If you build a big
:08:11. > :08:15.new house somewhere, and the suddenly found that there was going
:08:15. > :08:21.to be a wind farm right next to it, or a gas plant or something like
:08:21. > :08:25.that, that you had led to believe worst further away, you be
:08:25. > :08:31.understandably annoyed about it? I don't buy the idea that Mr Trump
:08:31. > :08:37.has been given such assurances, but the development will be about the
:08:37. > :08:41.size of a thumbnail held at arm's length. This really is not an issue.
:08:41. > :08:46.What we need to a cat is the quality of the evidence that we
:08:46. > :08:52.heard today. Equality was about rock bottom. We had to sit through
:08:52. > :08:56.a stream of trouble, riddled with inaccuracies, and the man seems
:08:56. > :09:03.obsessed with Chinese turn up -- turbines when there are none in
:09:03. > :09:08.Scotland. He was obsessed with other forms of electricity. He is
:09:08. > :09:18.making an issue out of alleged promises, which apparently don't
:09:18. > :09:22.I know you want to give us your views on to her Bines, on Donald
:09:22. > :09:32.Trump in particular, it seems peculiar that the Scottish
:09:32. > :09:36.government is very keen on Donald Trump and wind turbines, it can be
:09:36. > :09:41.a coincidence that both things are in such close proximity, can it?
:09:41. > :09:48.You have to assess every side on its merits. I do not agree with
:09:48. > :09:57.Patrick Harvie that the evidence was repetitive. What it underlines
:09:57. > :10:00.is the growing unhappiness. Hardly a week goes by without a one
:10:00. > :10:07.authoritative paper from professional bodies or engineers
:10:08. > :10:13.saying that this policy does not work. A I know that your
:10:13. > :10:19.organisation marshals all the arguments it can, understandably.
:10:19. > :10:23.Is there a groundswell of support for your position? If there is, it
:10:23. > :10:31.presumably is mainly honest better grounds? It is on Donald Trump
:10:31. > :10:35.grounds. As I said, I said to Patrick Harvie this morning, we all
:10:36. > :10:40.want to be on the same size copper -- on the same side, we will want
:10:40. > :10:44.the best for Scotland. We have a policy which is not based on
:10:44. > :10:49.evidence and which people are increasingly not believing in. That
:10:49. > :10:53.is a very dangerous thing. People would accept something they might
:10:53. > :10:57.not otherwise like so much if they believe that it is right. If they
:10:57. > :11:02.see that it is wrong, their views are ignored, democracy is trampled
:11:02. > :11:07.on. That is dangerous. What is needed is an independent review of
:11:07. > :11:12.the whole system. In what sense is democracy trampled on? All these
:11:12. > :11:17.wind turbines are subject to planning controls. It is a very
:11:17. > :11:22.unlevel playing field. You have the developer spending tens of millions
:11:22. > :11:28.of pounds on every application against local communities, the ones
:11:28. > :11:35.who are most affected the and least able to have found -- to defend
:11:35. > :11:42.themselves. They have the least time to make an objection, they
:11:43. > :11:49.have 28 days compared to years for the developer, if their local
:11:49. > :11:53.authority decided and listens to their concerns, and reject the
:11:53. > :12:00.application in over 45 out of 50 appeals, the Government pushes it
:12:00. > :12:04.through. Patrick Harvie, if there is a case for compromise on the
:12:04. > :12:08.Donald, is there a case for compromise more generally? I know
:12:08. > :12:13.you're in favour of wind turbine ploo mac, but you must accept that
:12:13. > :12:17.there are a lot of people who live in rural areas to Dong want to have
:12:17. > :12:23.their view dominated by these things. Is there some way of
:12:23. > :12:28.getting what you want a without imposing what a lot of people do
:12:28. > :12:33.not want? Mr Gibson is quite right to and from -- to argue for a
:12:33. > :12:37.fairer planning system. I will support changes for that. His
:12:37. > :12:41.position on this development, renewable energy, wind power, is
:12:41. > :12:51.inconsistent. He said tonight that we should take a case-by-case
:12:51. > :12:52.
:12:52. > :12:57.approach. The Wren submission at her calls for a moratorium. No, I
:12:57. > :13:03.stand by a... He seems to be rejecting all mainstream climate
:13:03. > :13:09.science. At least the community against carbines have a legitimate
:13:09. > :13:13.stake in this. It is about time someone asked dog Trump who the
:13:13. > :13:17.hell he thinks he is to come and dictate energy policy in Scotland.
:13:17. > :13:27.He had ignored my point. Is there a compromise, there are a lot of
:13:27. > :13:30.people that agree with Mark Gibson. Wider community appeal I have long
:13:30. > :13:39.argued for in the planning system. It is something that would level
:13:39. > :13:43.the playing field. I would still support that. Mark Gibson, briefly.
:13:43. > :13:53.I am his urologist, I am a chartered surveyor. I am very
:13:53. > :13:54.
:13:54. > :14:02.active in my local community. -- IMI's urologist. -- I am a
:14:02. > :14:10.zoologist. There is no evidence of any benefits from term by ins.
:14:10. > :14:16.is nonsense. Simply nonsense. see direct evidence of nature being
:14:16. > :14:24.violated, you cease once, we have those, we have 47-50 pairs each
:14:24. > :14:30.winter, they migrate between the lock and a village, within Qatar
:14:30. > :14:35.mines application site of mapped hang on, we are out of time.
:14:35. > :14:41.wonder what have you. You can continue sometime else. Or after
:14:41. > :14:46.the programme, if you want! It is just after a week until the
:14:46. > :14:51.polling stations open in Scotland's local council elections. The last
:14:51. > :14:55.boat four years ago it was subsumed with the controversy around the
:14:55. > :15:00.electronic voting system. The e- counting machines will be back for
:15:00. > :15:04.next month's elections. There will be offered him 200 of them at
:15:04. > :15:10.various venues. Well the system work this time? We have been behind
:15:10. > :15:15.the scenes. A sophisticated electronic system
:15:15. > :15:25.designed to deliver an electoral result that is fast and accurate.
:15:25. > :15:27.
:15:27. > :15:37.Where have we heard that before? There were 1501 rejected papers.
:15:37. > :15:40.
:15:40. > :15:45.1850 and be listened. 1536 in Airdrie and Shotts. How my hundred
:15:46. > :15:52.and 78 rejected papers. They could be 100,000 rejected ballot papers
:15:52. > :15:56.across Scotland if this trend continues. In the end it, 130,000
:15:56. > :16:04.ballots were rejected, supposedly spoiled. Most had been rejected by
:16:04. > :16:09.the counting machines without human intervention. 2007 was the perfect
:16:09. > :16:12.storm. We had elections to the Scottish Parliament and local
:16:12. > :16:16.government on the same day. We had the single transferable vote be
:16:16. > :16:19.introduced at the same time for local government elections. We had
:16:19. > :16:24.the ballot paper design for the Scottish Parliament, which created
:16:24. > :16:31.all sorts of problems and we had e- counting, all of this on the same
:16:31. > :16:36.day, all at once, and inevitably, I think, something went wrong.
:16:36. > :16:41.big question is, is it going to be accurate? Is it going to be secured
:16:41. > :16:46.and is it going to work? The process is under new management. An
:16:46. > :16:53.IT consultancy and an election services company says it has been
:16:53. > :16:57.exhaustively tested. We have scant 10,000 Cup -- 10,000 ballot papers.
:16:57. > :17:02.We then took recommendations from the local authorities to enhance
:17:02. > :17:08.the software, to improve it for the voters and for the users. We then
:17:08. > :17:12.went through a phase of trying out the software, demonstrating the
:17:12. > :17:17.software and that culminated a a large-scale demonstration in Perth,
:17:17. > :17:24.where we stand 164,000 ballot papers to the system. Another
:17:24. > :17:29.change from 2007 - we will know who is in charge this time.
:17:29. > :17:34.Canadian who gained -- could it be independent search -- research. He
:17:34. > :17:38.could not find one person to blame last time. He recommended that the
:17:38. > :17:42.chief electoral officer for Scotland be established. That was
:17:42. > :17:49.discussed, and eventually it was decided to establish an elections
:17:49. > :17:53.can be near pictures are poor at to that end. We focused on utilising
:17:53. > :17:57.that report. It was about putting the water first. Making sure that
:17:57. > :18:01.we took transparency into account whenever we were designing the
:18:01. > :18:05.solution, so we ended up with a solution that we feel as
:18:06. > :18:11.transparent, robust, is tried and tested.
:18:11. > :18:17.Why use four atoll? Because of the single transferable vote system.
:18:17. > :18:23.Its supporters say at least a fair result. The downside, counting by
:18:23. > :18:31.hand can take days. A few clicks of the mouse can do the same thing in
:18:31. > :18:39.seconds. The excess votes have been redistributed. As another candidate
:18:39. > :18:47.met the quarter? North. We got to the next stage. There we are. We
:18:47. > :18:54.now have three candidates elected. Jason many met the quarter. -- met
:18:54. > :18:58.the quarter. There should be no nasty surprises. No changes to the
:18:58. > :19:08.software or the ballot papers. we established a ballot paper
:19:08. > :19:09.
:19:09. > :19:15.design very lollop -- very early on in the process. Spoiled ballot
:19:15. > :19:20.papers will be rejected by humans, not machines. Automatic
:19:20. > :19:27.adjudication is not allowed, so all ballot papers will be adjudicated
:19:27. > :19:35.by human beings on the Friday when they are counting the votes.
:19:35. > :19:38.main difference this time as that the elections were held a year ago
:19:38. > :19:41.for the national parliament, they should be no reason why things
:19:42. > :19:46.should go wrong, there should be no reason why we cannot count
:19:46. > :19:50.electronically. He should be the case that things will prove
:19:50. > :19:55.successful and they will not be any difficulties. If that is the case,
:19:55. > :20:02.all voters will have to worry about his voting. Remember, putting
:20:02. > :20:09.across in a box is so last year. did not use an X. You express your
:20:09. > :20:14.choices, you put a one for your first choice, and so on. You do not
:20:14. > :20:18.have to vote for all candidates on the ballot paper, you can vote for
:20:18. > :20:23.as few as many as you want. system has already been used
:20:23. > :20:28.successfully in several smaller Scottish elections. One thought was
:20:28. > :20:33.for a health board that had 70 candidate on the ballot paper. Some