:00:04. > :00:11.Brain of Britain. I gave this up because the winds
:00:11. > :00:16.would not leave me alone! -- the winds.
:00:16. > :00:20.Tonight, you have just two days to make up your mind about voting for
:00:20. > :00:26.councillors. But it will not make any difference to how much money
:00:26. > :00:29.they have to spend. How can they get you interested? Also be the
:00:29. > :00:35.latest in the Murdoch phone hacking saga.
:00:35. > :00:40.Other anymore and says? Scotland's 32 councils on Thursday,
:00:40. > :00:44.whoever wins or loses, one issue which will dominate his money. Not
:00:44. > :00:54.just how to spend it but how to implement it tight squeeze on
:00:54. > :00:55.
:00:55. > :00:59.budgets. Our economy editor Douglas Fraser is about -- reports.
:00:59. > :01:03.Which council services should be kept afloat? Would you pay higher
:01:03. > :01:07.charges for some of them? The candidates may not be committing it
:01:07. > :01:13.yet, but the winners this week may face tough choices from the big
:01:13. > :01:23.squeeze on council budgets. That decline will be made up by higher
:01:23. > :01:41.
:01:41. > :01:48.council tax, so the key questions - To many schools, too much capacity.
:01:48. > :01:58.It means school closures. A number of areas, that will be the first
:01:58. > :01:58.
:01:58. > :02:39.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 40 seconds
:02:39. > :02:43.thing on the agenda. That is an area where was see a lot
:02:43. > :02:48.of change coming in after the elections. Charges, fees, prices,
:02:48. > :02:52.will go up in a lot of places. Or there could be better
:02:52. > :02:57.connections across borders. This is the boundary between two
:02:57. > :03:02.councils - Clackmannanshire, where Labour has controlled for the past
:03:02. > :03:09.five years, on the other side, Stirling, where the SNP has been in
:03:09. > :03:14.control. Two tribes by getting their act together. The education
:03:14. > :03:19.systems are getting more integrated. They are trying the same between
:03:19. > :03:24.Midlothian and East Lothian, so why not do three in Ayrshire councils
:03:24. > :03:34.all along Clydeside? Another difficult question - what about an
:03:34. > :03:35.
:03:35. > :03:42.idea proposed in Edinburgh... Be significant number of the big
:03:42. > :03:48.companies who were previously quite interested are now saying we have
:03:48. > :03:51.had our fingers burnt in Edinburgh. It costs a lot of money to have a
:03:51. > :03:57.year long discussion about that kind of arrangement. If nothing
:03:57. > :04:02.happens, those kind of companies are discouraged from doing that, I
:04:02. > :04:09.suspect a lot more concentrated activity in England. Where there is
:04:09. > :04:16.a more welcoming climate. No compulsory redundancy sits in
:04:16. > :04:19.the same category as the council tax. It is be restriction on local
:04:19. > :04:28.democracy working its course. Which has to be removed. You have to be
:04:28. > :04:34.able to shift around in terms of the workforce, and very pay as well.
:04:34. > :04:39.In the public sector in Ireland, they have taken between 15 and 20%
:04:39. > :04:44.and got on with it. I am not advocating exactly that route, but
:04:44. > :04:49.people have to say it is it realistic to be 200,000 for the
:04:49. > :04:54.chief executive? Figuring that the council budget
:04:54. > :04:57.puzzle is not child's play. These are big challenges, likely to
:04:57. > :05:03.impact on those who rely on their services.
:05:03. > :05:08.I am joined now by the SNP's local Government minister Derek Mackay --
:05:08. > :05:13.Derek Mackay and by Sarah Boyack, and by the Liberal Democrat's
:05:13. > :05:18.Willie Rennie. Can I just take one of your ideas,
:05:18. > :05:23.which is to have no compulsory redundancies in councils? What are
:05:23. > :05:27.you proposing to cut to pay for that? Or or you simply proposing
:05:28. > :05:32.that so many people want to leave councils that it will not make any
:05:32. > :05:35.difference whether you have redundancies or not? There is
:05:35. > :05:41.natural turnover way you can redeploy staff and transform
:05:41. > :05:46.services without making people Compostela Riddick -- compulsorily
:05:46. > :05:52.redundant. But it is important we do not throw people on the
:05:52. > :05:59.scrapheap... But you either have no compulsory redundancies and meaning
:05:59. > :06:06.fewer people forced to leave councils, because of this policy,
:06:06. > :06:09.or it is simply massed -- natural wastage. Which one is it? Its his
:06:09. > :06:19.natural turnover of staff. There will be fewer people working in
:06:19. > :06:22.
:06:22. > :06:28.local Government. Insuring Milcombe polls are really --... A I am are
:06:28. > :06:33.you saying... I was looking at your manifesto.
:06:33. > :06:37.Are you saying this is a great idea that SNP controlled councils will
:06:37. > :06:41.implement, what are you saying that this is something that somehow the
:06:41. > :06:48.Scottish Government will require of councils, like the council tax
:06:48. > :06:54.freeze? No, we are saying no compulsory redundancies. Sarah
:06:54. > :07:03.Boyack, a good idea? Is it is a problem it made at central
:07:04. > :07:07.Government level. Last year we lost 13 and a half 1000 jobs -- 13,500
:07:07. > :07:12.jobs are at local Government level. Local authorities have a huge
:07:12. > :07:18.squeeze on this year, and they are having to make very tough decisions.
:07:18. > :07:22.The SNP Government are not helping them. Are you saying that this is a
:07:22. > :07:28.sham? That all these job losses over the past year, that has just
:07:28. > :07:32.been natural wastage, all that has been compulsory redundancies?
:07:32. > :07:39.has been as a result of jobs being lost. We are seeing less teachers...
:07:39. > :07:44.That does not answer my question. On the job losses, because of
:07:44. > :07:48.compulsory redundancies, or are they as Derek Mackay was suggesting,
:07:48. > :07:54.this turnover, and if you do not replace people you get much the
:07:54. > :08:00.same effect? We are seen jobs not filled, but it is not being done in
:08:00. > :08:04.a logical way. Councils are having to make hard decisions on things
:08:04. > :08:07.particularly like care services. We are seeing difficult decisions on
:08:08. > :08:13.care services, and in Edinburgh for example the council wasted �4
:08:13. > :08:19.million thinking about privatising their services... Hang on. You
:08:19. > :08:24.would have to do exactly the same thing. Our point is that local
:08:24. > :08:28.Government is being dealt a bad deal by the SNP. On the one level
:08:28. > :08:38.you have a national SNP manifesto saying what will happen, but the
:08:38. > :08:43.
:08:43. > :08:48.reality is that at local level on things such as budget cuts,... We
:08:48. > :08:52.would have looked at a hall of the Scottish Government budget, and
:08:52. > :08:58.tried to prioritise protecting vulnerable people... So what would
:08:58. > :09:04.you have cut? You have to look at the Budget as a whole. So you do
:09:04. > :09:09.not have any answers? We cannot be right the budget. Yes you can. I
:09:09. > :09:14.understand there is an election five years off, but you have just
:09:14. > :09:19.had the Budget - of course you can tell me. Let me get -- give you an
:09:19. > :09:24.example of new money going into local Government. The whole area of
:09:24. > :09:27.renewable energy and local energy. That has a massive capacity to
:09:27. > :09:33.increase funds at local level, and not something that has been picked
:09:33. > :09:38.up in Birmingham for example. There are now councils in in mass scale
:09:38. > :09:42.looking at that. In Glasgow we have renewable energy being recycled to
:09:42. > :09:50.reduce pensioners'' fuel bills. So there are practical things that can
:09:50. > :09:58.be done. Willie Rennie, the point that was made in the film there is
:09:58. > :10:02.that compulsory redundancy, be said they would not force councils to do
:10:02. > :10:09.this, but it is like the council tax freeze. Do you think local
:10:09. > :10:14.authorities are being undermined as a result of this? The SNP like to
:10:14. > :10:20.control everything from Edinburgh. This is an egg -- SNP proposal at
:10:20. > :10:25.local level. But actually what I think we need to be looking at,
:10:25. > :10:28.because this is a small part of the overall decisions. The Liberal
:10:28. > :10:33.Democrat councils have already made significant savings in the last
:10:33. > :10:38.five years. Up in Highland there has been a �4 million worth of
:10:38. > :10:45.savings. In Aberdeen be brought the council back from financial brink.
:10:45. > :10:49.In Edinburgh we have got the reserves - up to about �12 million
:10:49. > :10:54.from �300,000 when Labour left it. So we have already done the
:10:54. > :11:04.efficiency savings at in local level. But compulsory redundancies
:11:04. > :11:04.
:11:04. > :11:10.stuff, it sounds attractive, and that is how the SNP talk about it.
:11:10. > :11:16.What are you proposing to cut? are looking at demand management.
:11:16. > :11:22.Even though finances are tight, the demand especially from older people,
:11:22. > :11:26.is considerable. We used -- we need to try and reduce that demand. It
:11:26. > :11:30.doesn't sound as if it will make big savings, but it does. I have
:11:30. > :11:35.seen several examples of where they can control the demand and make
:11:35. > :11:40.sure that communities, families and others take greater responsibility
:11:40. > :11:44.where they can, to help people so the burden does not fall upon the
:11:44. > :11:54.councils. These are difficult decisions, but at a local level we
:11:54. > :11:56.
:11:56. > :11:59.That sounds like a long-winded way of saying you will just dump it on
:12:00. > :12:04.the local communities. No, this is local leadership
:12:04. > :12:07.working, finding out what people can do for themselves. It is better
:12:07. > :12:12.if people can do things themselves, if communities can support people
:12:12. > :12:16.who live within them. That is a much better way of running services
:12:16. > :12:20.and provide a better quality service. If we are going to keep
:12:20. > :12:25.the quality of the services at the current standard, we will have to
:12:25. > :12:31.try and get people to look after themselves a lot more. Pretending
:12:31. > :12:39.we can carry on as we are is just a con.
:12:39. > :12:44.That goes into the next question, which is the idea of wiping the
:12:44. > :12:48.slate -- wiping the slate clean and starting again. Just saying, what
:12:48. > :12:53.is it councils ought to be providing, and what they provide
:12:53. > :12:57.now, with the reduced amount of money?
:12:57. > :13:01.Beyond any council's statutory responsibilities, each council
:13:01. > :13:05.cannot engage with their local communities and find out what is
:13:05. > :13:09.important to them. There can be a discussion as to what the
:13:09. > :13:14.priorities are and what services can be provided. We will need to
:13:14. > :13:21.innovate and if I did new finance, so some things have to be provided
:13:21. > :13:27.differently. The word statutory, Sarah, is quite
:13:27. > :13:31.important, isn't it? To a lot of people, it makes no different who
:13:31. > :13:37.runs the council. They have got to keep schools running, that takes up
:13:37. > :13:41.a lot of the Budget, the Actual discretionary spending their areas
:13:41. > :13:49.that can differ depending on whether it is the Liberal Democrat
:13:49. > :13:53.or SNP or Tory is pretty small. I think there is a point at which
:13:53. > :13:58.local communities, if they are consulted, will actually express
:13:58. > :14:04.priorities, at one other things we have been doing his consulting with
:14:04. > :14:10.local people, they know that there is not given it amounts of money...
:14:10. > :14:14.All councils say they consult with local people. That means nothing.
:14:14. > :14:19.It has been interesting looking at people's transport priorities in
:14:19. > :14:23.Edinburgh, and we have got an idea of devolving the Budget on a
:14:24. > :14:27.partnership basis to involve local communities in those decisions, so
:14:27. > :14:32.there is a bit more local accountability and one of the
:14:32. > :14:37.things we do need to do is look at how local communities are involved
:14:37. > :14:41.in a process. Statutory services are key, but are things like
:14:41. > :14:44.support services, at one of the things we need to see is to look at
:14:44. > :14:49.local health budgets and local authority budgets being more
:14:49. > :14:54.efficiently managed together. Briefly, Willie Rennie, you worry
:14:54. > :14:59.Liberal Democrat, are there functions that the Scottish
:14:59. > :15:03.government does that you think should be sent to councils?
:15:03. > :15:08.Very much so. We should allow councils to function in their own
:15:08. > :15:11.way. What would you take away from the
:15:11. > :15:15.Scottish government and give to councils?
:15:15. > :15:23.To give credit to the SNP, they did take away a lot of target and
:15:23. > :15:28.controls, some of the issues, for instance, around agreements
:15:28. > :15:33.bitterly looked at to see that the councils have got maximum
:15:33. > :15:39.flexibility. -- needs to be looked We have a polished 99% of ring-
:15:39. > :15:43.fenced funding around local government. -- abolished.
:15:43. > :15:48.The House of Commons Culture and Media Select Committee described
:15:48. > :15:52.Rupert Murdoch as not being a fit and proper person to run a company.
:15:52. > :15:56.This was a political split, with the Liberal Democrat siding with
:15:56. > :16:01.Labour. There was not an SNP member on that committee, it may have been
:16:01. > :16:09.interesting if there was. It also feature the Tommy Sheridan case and
:16:09. > :16:12.the phone Egging -- phone hacking of at least one the SNP MP.
:16:12. > :16:16.It is a story that has been hitting the headlines for almost eight
:16:16. > :16:23.years, the battle between Tommy Sheridan and News International
:16:23. > :16:29.began with his front page splash in 2004. He sued for defamation and it
:16:29. > :16:36.will up -- and one, but was later jailed for perjury. But Tom Watson
:16:36. > :16:42.repeated his belief that this story was not over.
:16:42. > :16:48.So Tommy Sheridan loft -- lost his liberty on a majority verdict of a
:16:49. > :16:52.jury that was not in the admission of all the facts. I believe this is
:16:52. > :16:58.not sound. If Rupert Murdoch is really sorry, he will order an
:16:58. > :17:04.urgent review of the information his company provided to the jury.
:17:04. > :17:09.The damning conclusion surprised many observers, but not Tommy
:17:09. > :17:14.Sheridan. Ben 4G important conclusions, one
:17:14. > :17:18.is that Mr Murdoch is not fit to run a fish-and-chip shop, never
:17:18. > :17:26.mind a media empire, and second, but the conviction against me was
:17:26. > :17:30.based on incomplete evidence and life is. It is an unsafe conviction.
:17:30. > :17:34.-- life is. Whether or not we have heard the
:17:34. > :17:38.last, evidence presented did lead to Strathclyde police launching
:17:38. > :17:41.their own investigation. Its officers are looking into
:17:41. > :17:51.allegations that the number of people in Scotland may have had
:17:51. > :17:56.their phones hacked. Just weeks ago, a man had his two children were
:17:56. > :18:00.contacted by police because they may have been a victims of phone
:18:00. > :18:05.hacking. Strathclyde police have been in touch with many more people
:18:05. > :18:08.in Scotland, but will not confirm who.
:18:08. > :18:12.Now that we know that the former First Minister in Scotland was a
:18:12. > :18:16.target, I am writing to Alex Salmond to recommend he set up an
:18:16. > :18:24.inquiry by the Scottish parliament into how wide wide MSPs were
:18:24. > :18:29.targeted. -- how and why. But Alex Salmond criticised the
:18:29. > :18:34.inquiry. He said the question of who is a fit person to run a news
:18:34. > :18:39.organisation it should be judged by independent authorities like Lord
:18:39. > :18:46.Leveson and Ofcom. But if police officers want more information,
:18:46. > :18:49.they could do worse than go to the National Theatre of Scotland, and a
:18:49. > :18:53.production which is based on verbatim interviews with Scottish
:18:53. > :18:57.journalists. One of the scenes played out here
:18:57. > :19:05.is based on an interview with Jack Irvine, the former editor of the
:19:05. > :19:08.Sun. He admits making cash payments for stories. He says it was
:19:08. > :19:15.commonplace, they paid social workers, soldiers and even senior
:19:15. > :19:19.policeman. There have been plenty of hints and suggestions, but so
:19:19. > :19:28.far, the full story of how the media operate in Scotland is yet
:19:28. > :19:36.one fault. Looking at the front pages, and the Scotsman has Rupert
:19:36. > :19:46.Murdoch on the front page. The the Herald, US tycoon on the verge of
:19:46. > :19:46.
:19:46. > :19:55.winning takeover battle. At the bottom, a secret mission in Libya.