0:00:01 > 0:00:08
0:00:09 > 0:00:12Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, 50p a unit - that will be the minimum
0:00:12 > 0:00:17price Orok top assuming the government gets its way. Could a
0:00:17 > 0:00:20legal challenge stop this policy? We will speak to the Health
0:00:20 > 0:00:26Secretary. The undersea cable that could allow
0:00:26 > 0:00:29Scotland and Norway to trade renewable energy.
0:00:29 > 0:00:34If 50p is the magic number, the minimum price you will have to pay
0:00:34 > 0:00:38for every unit of alcohol you buy from a supermarket or off-licence
0:00:38 > 0:00:41from next spring. The Health Secretary in the Cup -- Nicola
0:00:41 > 0:00:51Sturgeon has confirmed the figure one week before the legislation is
0:00:51 > 0:00:56due to be approved. What difference met this policy make.
0:00:56 > 0:01:01It was not so much a case of would the or would not they but when
0:01:01 > 0:01:06would it be and how much? We all knew minimum unit pricing for
0:01:06 > 0:01:13alcohol would happen but what would that minimum price be set at? 40p,
0:01:13 > 0:01:1650p, 60p? In the end, health secretary Nicola Sturgeon bit the
0:01:16 > 0:01:22bullet and made the announcement while visiting a ward at Glasgow's
0:01:22 > 0:01:28Royal Infirmary where patients are being treated for liver disease.
0:01:28 > 0:01:33According to the Scottish government. A 50% -- 50p minimum
0:01:33 > 0:01:43price would mean a bottle of vodka price would mean a bottle of vodka
0:01:43 > 0:01:50
0:01:50 > 0:01:53This is the big policy but it is addressing a big problem. Scotland
0:01:53 > 0:01:59suffers huge would remark on misuse and it takes its toll some
0:01:59 > 0:02:04individuals and communities. This policy is designed to reduce
0:02:04 > 0:02:09alcohol-related deaths, hospital admissions, alcohol-related crime.
0:02:09 > 0:02:14It is a policy that time has come. Research from chef at university
0:02:14 > 0:02:20said that in the first year there will be 60 fewer deaths, 1600 fewer
0:02:20 > 0:02:30hospital admissions and 3500 fewer crimes. They also reckon that over
0:02:30 > 0:02:38
0:02:38 > 0:02:41The evidence we have of the model studies in Sheffield say we should
0:02:41 > 0:02:45see a reduction in alcohol-related liver disease within two years
0:02:45 > 0:02:54which is quite a short time frame compared with many public health
0:02:54 > 0:03:00measures. The liver can regenerate very quickly. Therefore people who
0:03:00 > 0:03:05are perhaps on the borderline of doing permanent liver damage, by
0:03:05 > 0:03:10reducing their consumption can step back from the slippery slope. We
0:03:10 > 0:03:16would hope they would be the first people impacted by this therefore
0:03:16 > 0:03:22we would see a reduction in deaths quite early on. Pubs and hotels
0:03:22 > 0:03:24have long been at the disadvantage to supermarkets who sell cheap
0:03:24 > 0:03:29booze so they welcome us public health move because it also levels
0:03:29 > 0:03:35the playing field. We have seen supermarkets giving alcohol away at
0:03:35 > 0:03:41very low prices, ridiculously low prices. That cannot be allowed to
0:03:41 > 0:03:46continue. As a first step, we think 50p is proportionate to the problem
0:03:46 > 0:03:55and we think it will work. As a first step, the Government is to be
0:03:55 > 0:03:59congratulated. But not surprisingly, some retailers and the drinks
0:04:00 > 0:04:07industry have concerns about the potential impact. I think it will
0:04:07 > 0:04:15have an impact. In terms of the alcohol and cider sales and spirits
0:04:15 > 0:04:19sales. It will impact our sales. Alcohol forms a good proportion of
0:04:19 > 0:04:24her business and anything that impacts that is of concern to me
0:04:24 > 0:04:31and to retailers in general. It is ineffective, it will be ruled
0:04:31 > 0:04:36illegal and it will harm the Scottish whisky industry. This will
0:04:36 > 0:04:40give an excuse to use the health justified trade restriction to keep
0:04:40 > 0:04:44Scotland out of other markets. We are an export industry and a huge
0:04:44 > 0:04:48earner for Scotland Under for are earning capacity for Scotland is
0:04:48 > 0:04:52damaged by Scottish policy, it is regrettable for the whole of
0:04:52 > 0:05:02Scotland. Such concerns have raised the possibility of the legal
0:05:02 > 0:05:04
0:05:04 > 0:05:08challenge. In the letter to the David Willetts warned that minimum
0:05:08 > 0:05:11unit pricing was very likely to be deemed an illegal under EU
0:05:11 > 0:05:14competition and trade lock and that the Attorney-General had advised
0:05:14 > 0:05:22that the policy carried a significant degree of legal risk
0:05:22 > 0:05:25and that any subsequent litigation would be complex and costly.
0:05:25 > 0:05:30Because acts of the Scottish Parliament are open to legal
0:05:30 > 0:05:36challenge, the road ahead could be bumpy for the Scottish government.
0:05:36 > 0:05:39MSPs voted to end tobacco displays but the ban has been challenged and
0:05:39 > 0:05:43courts delaying the introduction of legislation already passed by the
0:05:43 > 0:05:52Scottish Parliament. Could the same happen with minimum unit price in a
0:05:52 > 0:05:54bar called? -- alcohol. I spoke to the Health Secretary
0:05:55 > 0:06:00Nicola Sturgeon and asked if she expected there would be a legal
0:06:00 > 0:06:03challenge? I do not know. That is not in my control. What I do know
0:06:03 > 0:06:09is this law will pass through the Scottish Parliament with an over
0:06:09 > 0:06:16lone majority. The Greens and the Conservatives have also supported
0:06:16 > 0:06:18it. We hope people will respect the rule of Parliament and we have
0:06:18 > 0:06:23built a sunset clause into the legislation to take account of the
0:06:23 > 0:06:27fact that people are sceptical and the impact of the policy. That
0:06:27 > 0:06:33gives us the opportunity to test it and then in five years Parliament
0:06:33 > 0:06:36can assess and evaluate it. Do you agree with the UK Government
0:06:36 > 0:06:41analysis from David Willetts that the policy is likely to be deemed
0:06:41 > 0:06:45illegal? The UK Government had decided to introduce minimum
0:06:45 > 0:06:49pricing for alcohol falls up the position is clear, that minimum
0:06:49 > 0:06:56pricing is not an Egle in itself but it does need to meet certain
0:06:56 > 0:07:00tests. We have to demonstrate that it has sufficient health and local
0:07:00 > 0:07:03and packs. That is why we have taken great care to set the unit
0:07:03 > 0:07:09price so that we can demonstrate it meets those tests and I am
0:07:09 > 0:07:13confident it well. Given what you have just said, it sounds like the
0:07:13 > 0:07:17lawyers will have a field day the King to argue whether the policy is
0:07:17 > 0:07:23proportionate in the way that you suggest that his or not. Is that
0:07:23 > 0:07:27not the basis for a legal case? First, at any one the Scottish
0:07:27 > 0:07:31Parliament passes has the potential to be challenged legally. On this
0:07:31 > 0:07:35particular point, it has been fully debated in Scotland and this is the
0:07:35 > 0:07:39second attempt the Scottish government has made. It was a key
0:07:39 > 0:07:48part ever be election manifesto and it is going to be passed with an
0:07:48 > 0:07:52overwhelming majority. It is time to give this policy a chance and
0:07:52 > 0:07:57see what benefits can bring. We know from the Sheffield model that
0:07:57 > 0:08:02it reduces alcohol-related deaths and alcohol-related crime and
0:08:02 > 0:08:06hospital admissions. You tobacco control measures are delayed. You
0:08:06 > 0:08:10have actually fallen behind the rest of the UK in that area because
0:08:10 > 0:08:15one of the big tobacco firms is pursuing a case through the Supreme
0:08:15 > 0:08:20Court. Why wouldn't one of the bike alcohol firms choose to do the same
0:08:20 > 0:08:24for this policy? I cannot speak for them and do not have control over
0:08:24 > 0:08:28the decisions that individual companies might or might not take.
0:08:29 > 0:08:34Is the possibility open? Of course it is but that applies to every
0:08:34 > 0:08:43single act of parliament that his past. As the 84 on the system?
0:08:43 > 0:08:48We operate under the rule of law. am asking you if you think the
0:08:48 > 0:08:52lovelock is right? He have the same tobacco control measures as the
0:08:52 > 0:08:57rest of the UK. They were legally challenged as well just at
0:08:57 > 0:09:01different stages. Our views on the Supreme Court and how it operates
0:09:01 > 0:09:05in Scotland are well known but on the issue of minimum pricing, my
0:09:05 > 0:09:09message is quite clear. Let us respect the will of Parliament and
0:09:09 > 0:09:13allow this policy to be introduced and see the benefits that can bring.
0:09:13 > 0:09:18I have built a sunset clause into the legislation because some people
0:09:18 > 0:09:23are sceptical. I respect that but I believe this policy is going to
0:09:23 > 0:09:28work so let's get on with it. you do end up in the courts? Then
0:09:28 > 0:09:31we will vigorously defend any legal challenges because I believe this
0:09:31 > 0:09:35policy complies with European law so we will vigorously defend any
0:09:35 > 0:09:43challenge. That is a decision for others whether to bring such a
0:09:43 > 0:09:46challenge. The original modelling for this was based on 35p a unit.
0:09:46 > 0:09:52Fly 50p? Both the original modelling and the more recent
0:09:52 > 0:09:57modelling modelled the impact of the range of prices from 35p up to
0:09:57 > 0:10:0275p. We first introduced this policy 18 months ago and two key
0:10:03 > 0:10:07decision that the right level to set the Pep -- price was 45p for
0:10:07 > 0:10:15sup that was 18 months ago and the earliest this could be introduced
0:10:15 > 0:10:19is April next year. If he factor in inflation,is a broadly equivalent.
0:10:19 > 0:10:24Nothing to do with it being seen by the European authorities to have
0:10:24 > 0:10:30enough of an impact to interfere enough in the market to be
0:10:31 > 0:10:36justified? 50p today, or, more accurately next April, is broadly
0:10:36 > 0:10:44equivalent in terms of impact to 45p 18 months ago because of the
0:10:44 > 0:10:51effects of inflation. How will the policy be reviewed? Is at the first
0:10:51 > 0:10:56step, might it escalate quite rapidly? What we have set today is
0:10:56 > 0:10:59that after two years we will review the policy. We have to not only
0:10:59 > 0:11:04start with a policy that is proportionate but ensure that it
0:11:04 > 0:11:08remains proportionate. We will need to take into account other factors
0:11:08 > 0:11:13that impact on price and the effect the policy was having so it needs
0:11:13 > 0:11:16to be reviewed. That does not necessarily mean we will see
0:11:16 > 0:11:22increases in price. That is something that will have to be
0:11:22 > 0:11:27considered on a regular basis every two years. If England has 40p, the
0:11:27 > 0:11:32current proposal, and you have 50p, why wouldn't lots of people go and
0:11:32 > 0:11:36buy their booze and parallel? not sure if you were driving from
0:11:36 > 0:11:40Glasgow the equation would work out if you factor in petrol costs.
0:11:40 > 0:11:45Let's wait and see where the UK Government ends up. A few months
0:11:45 > 0:11:50ago, they were not in favour of minimum pricing at all. They have
0:11:50 > 0:11:54started consulting at 40p. I would not be surprised if the end up at a
0:11:54 > 0:11:57higher level but that is the decision for them. What we have to
0:11:57 > 0:12:04do is make sure we have a policy that meet the needs of Scotland and
0:12:04 > 0:12:08let's remember the cost of alcohol misuse. It takes an enormous toll.
0:12:08 > 0:12:11Would you welcome the same price both sides of the border? I would.
0:12:11 > 0:12:16There would be advantages to that but I can only take a decision for
0:12:16 > 0:12:19Scotland. What you say to the whisky industry who now fear that
0:12:19 > 0:12:23governments around the world will have an excuse to penalise their
0:12:23 > 0:12:27product? We support the whisky industry and arguing for fair
0:12:27 > 0:12:31treatment but they do not think you can compare a policy for Scotland
0:12:31 > 0:12:33but I believe is legal, proportionate and non-
0:12:33 > 0:12:38discriminatory with disproportionate and illegal
0:12:38 > 0:12:42measures from other countries. We will continue to support the whisky
0:12:42 > 0:12:49industry for fair treatment. This is Labour's public health
0:12:49 > 0:12:53spokesman. Do you agree with Nicola Sturgeon that it would be better
0:12:53 > 0:12:59for there to be at the same price on both sides of the border? If we
0:12:59 > 0:13:06need a minimum price, yes. A much better way of doing it as with
0:13:06 > 0:13:09excise duty. The Labour government, as one of its last acts, used an
0:13:09 > 0:13:13escalator on the excise duty and the Coalition government continued
0:13:13 > 0:13:17that. The price of alcohol is already rising and that is the way
0:13:17 > 0:13:26we would want to see it because it does not give a massive windfall
0:13:26 > 0:13:32Given that we will have a minimum price, would you encourage the UK
0:13:32 > 0:13:36to go for 50 pence per unit as well? There are disadvantages in
0:13:36 > 0:13:42having a differential between Scotland and England. People will
0:13:42 > 0:13:52travel south of alcohol is chipper. That has been seen in our land. --
0:13:52 > 0:13:59
0:13:59 > 0:14:03cheaper. That has been seen in Ireland. What will happen to the
0:14:03 > 0:14:13wind all profits that the companies will make? Nobody has looked at
0:14:13 > 0:14:18
0:14:18 > 0:14:22this. -- a windfall. None of us by all our alcohol as cheap alcohol.
0:14:22 > 0:14:31It could drive up the cost of premium brands. Some of the very
0:14:31 > 0:14:37expensive brands may go up slightly. But we do not know yet how the
0:14:37 > 0:14:44market will respond. The government has failed to look at this at all.
0:14:44 > 0:14:54Is that of why they are introducing this health levy for sellers of
0:14:54 > 0:15:00
0:15:00 > 0:15:03alcohol and tobacco. Some supermarkets do not sell tobacco.
0:15:03 > 0:15:11Particularly been better off areas where there is less smoking.
0:15:11 > 0:15:17you support that levy? We supported it in committee. We have said we
0:15:17 > 0:15:21would support minimum pricing despite are up severe reservations,
0:15:21 > 0:15:28provided that the government agreed to claw back that money. Why have
0:15:28 > 0:15:33you got severe reservations when Westminster Labour are keen on the
0:15:33 > 0:15:37idea? Andy Burnham has said it is something they will look at, but
0:15:37 > 0:15:41they have not supported a yet. I think when they come to look at it
0:15:41 > 0:15:50seriously, they will find that the reasons we have put forward for not
0:15:50 > 0:15:59doing it... Yvette is not a Labour policy in England, why it is Diane
0:15:59 > 0:16:02Abbott tweeting about it? -- if it is not. If you talk to a liver
0:16:02 > 0:16:07specialists, they are concerned about young people getting there
0:16:07 > 0:16:13were problems. The least affected by the policy will be the younger
0:16:13 > 0:16:17age group. It also will not affect wealthier people. There are more
0:16:17 > 0:16:22wealthy people with hazardous drinking than poor people. It might
0:16:22 > 0:16:29not work, but why not supported and give it a chance? It is going to
0:16:29 > 0:16:35happen. They have got a majority in the parliament. They can press
0:16:35 > 0:16:41ahead with that. Will you vote for it? We will only vote for it if the
0:16:41 > 0:16:50agreed to claw back this windfall. Our duty now is to make sure that
0:16:50 > 0:16:52it is tested properly. Thank you very much.
0:16:52 > 0:16:55With more evidence today that Scotland's private sector is
0:16:55 > 0:16:58feeling upbeat, despite all the worries around the eurozone and the
0:16:58 > 0:17:02double dip, the best explanation is the energy sector. Oil and gas and
0:17:02 > 0:17:05renewable energy are doing well. Scotland's got a lot in common
0:17:05 > 0:17:09there with Norway, which is where Alex Salmond went today to talk
0:17:09 > 0:17:12energy. In particular, he was catching up with plans to lay a
0:17:12 > 0:17:14subsea cable that would act as an innovative, two-way traffic in
0:17:14 > 0:17:18renewable power, swapping our wind for their hydro. Douglas Fraser has
0:17:18 > 0:17:28been in Bergen to find out more, and he reports that the costs of
0:17:28 > 0:17:39
0:17:39 > 0:17:49Scotland has been making a splash On a much larger scale in the 1950s,
0:17:49 > 0:17:58
0:17:58 > 0:18:04it was a toff like -- tough life. Norway's hydro industry is much
0:18:04 > 0:18:14bigger depending on glacial melt and more reliable. Scotland's
0:18:14 > 0:18:17
0:18:17 > 0:18:21relies on rainfall. That scale is why Norway is being seen as
0:18:21 > 0:18:28important in answering the question of what happens to Scotland's wind
0:18:28 > 0:18:34industry when the wind drops? When there is little demand for power at
0:18:34 > 0:18:44night, Scottish 0 wind connects with Norway's much bigger resources.
0:18:44 > 0:18:45
0:18:45 > 0:18:50It pumps water uphill to create more hydro-electricity.
0:18:50 > 0:18:53increases your storage very substantially. It will drive down
0:18:53 > 0:19:03prices and allow the great resources of Scotland and Norway to
0:19:03 > 0:19:13be used it to the best effects. it will cost around �1.5 billion.
0:19:13 > 0:19:15
0:19:15 > 0:19:22It will be ready in 2020. It is quite a long... We had these
0:19:22 > 0:19:28environmental studies that will take one or two years. Then you
0:19:28 > 0:19:35have the planning process in Norway and in Scotland. The power of the
0:19:35 > 0:19:44rain is in a lot of demand in Norway. Other countries want to
0:19:44 > 0:19:47have these cables as well. If there is a cable across to Scotland, it
0:19:47 > 0:19:57emphasises that the opportunities of taking green power from remote
0:19:57 > 0:20:04
0:20:04 > 0:20:14parts of Europe. There is a plan to bring energy from Iceland. I think
0:20:14 > 0:20:19
0:20:19 > 0:20:29we can match two cables between Norway and the UK and then we will
0:20:29 > 0:20:39see about the continental market. I see the future as an two cables
0:20:39 > 0:20:44
0:20:44 > 0:20:50between Norway and the UK. There is plenty... If it is possible to
0:20:50 > 0:20:56transport power long distances, why not bring solar power from Europe
0:20:56 > 0:21:05and North Africa? The cost of Zola power is falling fast. This is a
0:21:05 > 0:21:12report from the government industry advisers and the look at the cost
0:21:12 > 0:21:20of the grid connections necessary to meet renewable energy target.
0:21:20 > 0:21:28The cost has doubled in three years. The reason for the increase is the