:00:08. > :00:11.last to grieve. Tonight on Newsnight Scotland. The
:00:11. > :00:16.No to Independence campaign launches with no-one using the word
:00:16. > :00:20."no" - it's too negative apparently. So it's called Better Together. But
:00:20. > :00:23.will it manage to keep together even its own supporters - who agree
:00:23. > :00:27.on little else than staying in the UK? And no to the SPL for Rangers
:00:27. > :00:33.as five clubs oppose their new application. What now for the club
:00:33. > :00:39.and the national game? Good evening. We don't have a date, but we now
:00:39. > :00:42.have two campaigns. Better Together joined the fray today to argue
:00:42. > :00:45.against independence and for Scotland keeping its place in the
:00:45. > :00:49.Union. In a moment I'll be speaking to the Labour leader Johann Lamont,
:00:49. > :00:54.but first David Allison reports from today's launch.
:00:54. > :00:59.The yes campaign has a month head- start but they have had to Machrie
:00:59. > :01:09.years until any referendum. They feel they have time to get over
:01:09. > :01:09.
:01:09. > :01:15.their message to know to independence. It was a sober former
:01:15. > :01:20.Chancellor taking it off. The truth is this coming together of family,
:01:20. > :01:24.friends and ideas and institutions is a strength not a weakness. It is
:01:24. > :01:28.an ideal worth celebrating. Conservatives, Lib Dems and Labour
:01:29. > :01:35.came together but they are keen to keep the campaign open to non-
:01:35. > :01:39.politicians. Come and join the cause. If you have never campaigned,
:01:39. > :01:45.nothing has mattered as much as this. Come and get involved. If you
:01:45. > :01:49.have never voted in an election, get registered. Crowds got was a
:01:49. > :01:55.better future for Scotland, let's be confident saying yes we are
:01:55. > :02:00.Better Together. The former Scottish Conservative
:02:00. > :02:08.leader who has absurd and Murden would bikes took on a new role for
:02:08. > :02:13.Better Together, a talk show host although when interviewing she did
:02:13. > :02:18.not into Mr Renfrewshire. It is a different style of launched in the
:02:18. > :02:23.Yes campaign. How will get through to the public? I love the culture,
:02:23. > :02:28.the opportunity. A campaign video unstressed the views of pro-union
:02:28. > :02:33.Scots but is it enough to fire people up? There's always a danger
:02:33. > :02:38.of a lack of passion when you talk about staying in UK. It is
:02:38. > :02:42.difficult to get people enthused to say I want the status quo. It is
:02:42. > :02:47.easier to get people are passionate about a vision of an independent
:02:47. > :02:51.Scotland. That is the big thing the campaign has to get over. They have
:02:51. > :02:56.to enthuse and get people passionate about something people
:02:56. > :03:03.are not passionate about. Alastair Darling insisted he was passionate
:03:03. > :03:09.about this. Alastair Darling is not normally unemotional man but I
:03:09. > :03:15.think the population will take his word for it that he is passionate
:03:15. > :03:19.about keeping Scotland in the Union. People also recognise Alastair
:03:19. > :03:24.Darling is an honest guy who does not mince his words and tells it
:03:25. > :03:30.like it is. He is a good choice for the campaign. The public have two
:03:30. > :03:34.camps to listen to, or ignore, for that matter. Both sides in the
:03:34. > :03:38.debate believe this is not going to be a campaign won by the
:03:38. > :03:41.commentators and media. It will be people in the workplace and
:03:41. > :03:49.neighbours speaking to each other and it will be interesting to see
:03:49. > :03:54.who develops the campaigning best. So, Better Together under way, no
:03:54. > :03:58.celebrities, less passion but where the polls are at the moment, the
:03:58. > :04:08.Yes camp have all the ground to make up. The Leader of Scottish
:04:08. > :04:09.
:04:09. > :04:15.Labour, Johann Lamont, joins me now. This campaign, it assumes we are
:04:15. > :04:18.involved in a referendum with a single question, is it? It is quite
:04:18. > :04:24.clear Alex Salmond got the mandates to ask the people if they want to
:04:24. > :04:30.stay in the UK or not. We are saying ask the question and allow
:04:30. > :04:36.the people of Scotland to answer. I am of the view people want to make
:04:36. > :04:41.the decision, devolution is for those who want the UK to work. The
:04:42. > :04:47.big question needs to be settled, the biggest question 300 years.
:04:47. > :04:55.Make the decision and then we will live with the consequences. We want
:04:55. > :04:59.to stay strong inside. What if the Scottish government simply
:04:59. > :05:06.organises its own referendum without getting these legal powers
:05:06. > :05:10.from London and it will stick a second question in it, what is your
:05:10. > :05:14.attitude to that? I am not sure what they would. Nicola Sturgeon
:05:14. > :05:24.only once one question. Alex Salmond came into politics to
:05:24. > :05:27.
:05:27. > :05:31.remove Scott Allan from the UK. Would you consider it a legitimate
:05:31. > :05:34.way to organise a referendum question up we have had this debate,
:05:34. > :05:38.we have said there is a debate about whether we can give the
:05:38. > :05:44.Scottish parliament the authority to run the referendum. The debate
:05:44. > :05:51.they have set themselves needs to be a clear one. It is about what
:05:51. > :05:55.the state inside the UK or not. Devolution is a separate discussion.
:05:55. > :05:59.The trouble is when the posters ask people what they think about this,
:05:59. > :06:03.people tell them by and large they do not want independence but they
:06:03. > :06:11.do not want what you are selling either. They want something in
:06:11. > :06:16.between. They want more powers for the Scottish parliament. For people
:06:16. > :06:20.who, and they are the largest bloc, feel that way, what is your
:06:20. > :06:25.suggestion about have given none of the parties represent what they
:06:25. > :06:29.feel, how do you suggest they go about getting what they want?
:06:29. > :06:35.debate about the devolution settlement is not buying of Alex
:06:35. > :06:39.Salmond. We need to decide what we want to stay in the UK or not,
:06:39. > :06:46.devolution is an interesting question. We should establish a
:06:46. > :06:50.devolution Commission, and where power best lies. We might want
:06:50. > :06:57.wealthier system serving the whole of the country, more power in local
:06:57. > :07:01.government. I have said they will be a first report to the conference
:07:01. > :07:09.in spring but Alex Salmond has given us 2.5 years. There was a
:07:09. > :07:16.long period of time. So, your answer to the question how do
:07:16. > :07:22.people who get what the largest block of people once, is the
:07:22. > :07:30.referendum is relevant to them. it's not. You should vote Labour in
:07:30. > :07:36.the next elections? How can it be irrelevant? We do not need to sort
:07:36. > :07:42.devolution if you want to leave. I recognise devolution can change and
:07:42. > :07:49.respond. I am more than happy to engage in the debate. A lot of
:07:49. > :07:53.these ideas develop beyond parties. The strong message is ordinary
:07:54. > :08:00.Scots are speaking up. People also realise the reality of political
:08:00. > :08:08.power. They remember what the Conservatives said before the
:08:08. > :08:13.referendum in the 1970s and if there is a no vote, the idea that
:08:13. > :08:19.the parties that support staying in the UK... You voted No, here is a
:08:19. > :08:25.raft of proposals. We did it all ready. The Scottish parliament was
:08:25. > :08:34.delivered by a Labour Party who work it cross parties developed a
:08:34. > :08:39.set of proposals, put them to the referendum and implemented them.
:08:39. > :08:44.Let me ask you, you have no control over what the British government
:08:44. > :08:50.can do. If you come up with more devolved powers, can you tell us
:08:50. > :08:55.you will make sure Ed Miliband has those proposals in his manifesto in
:08:55. > :09:02.the British general election? Absolutely. Ed Miliband and I are
:09:02. > :09:06.as one. I understand the needs to have laid at UK level and he
:09:06. > :09:10.understands the power of labour in a Scottish parliament to make a
:09:11. > :09:14.difference to people's lives. Likely. Is we must have the
:09:15. > :09:19.opportunity to answer the question, do you wish to stay in the UK or
:09:19. > :09:29.not but the SNP will not misrepresent... Whereas the money
:09:29. > :09:37.coming from? -- whereas. A range of organisations. A couple of hundred
:09:37. > :09:43.pounds from the public responding. �200. How much have you got? I have
:09:43. > :09:47.not looked at it but Alastair Darling when he took over this job
:09:47. > :09:51.said he wanted a transparent open and accountable organisation to
:09:51. > :09:58.make sure people know where the money has come from. But will be
:09:58. > :10:04.transparent. Alastair Darling is an honourable and Transparent man.
:10:04. > :10:07.we will know? You will know who the donors are. So today we've had a
:10:07. > :10:10.university as host for a campaign launch. Last month we were treated
:10:10. > :10:16.to a cinema, complete with Hollywood actors, for the Yes
:10:16. > :10:20.campaign launch. And now both camps are officially up and running, what
:10:20. > :10:23.influence will they have? Well at the very least they give us the
:10:23. > :10:33.chance to indulge in a bit of nostalgia at some of the most
:10:33. > :10:40.
:10:40. > :10:44.memorable political images of We hope when it gathers momentum
:10:44. > :10:54.and we get away from this patriotic idea and move into the nuts and
:10:54. > :11:06.
:11:06. > :11:09.This is a devolved system of government, we're not a walking out
:11:09. > :11:15.of Britain. It lays down the fact that the Scots should be the
:11:15. > :11:25.masters of their own destiny. is no power in Westminster that
:11:25. > :11:37.
:11:37. > :11:43.I once got into the Independent, not because I think we're better
:11:43. > :11:53.than any other country. -- I want Scotland to be independent. But
:11:53. > :11:58.
:11:58. > :12:04.because I know that we are as good As proud Scot the 20 better future
:12:04. > :12:09.for Scotland, let's be confident in saying yes, we are better together.
:12:09. > :12:11.-- that want a better future. Present and correct at today's
:12:11. > :12:15.launch was political commentator David Torrance. Also with me is the
:12:15. > :12:25.Scotsman columnist Michael Kelly. How did this compared to the last
:12:25. > :12:29.one? The yes launch? It was not bad slick this morning. The delivery of
:12:29. > :12:34.that was pretty flat, and the people section was a bit laboured,
:12:34. > :12:38.but there was no major gaffe and it passed off reasonably well. They
:12:38. > :12:45.were trying to respond to the Holyrood glitz by being utterly
:12:45. > :12:55.soporific? Yes, but the branding was the strongest of what was to
:12:55. > :12:55.
:12:55. > :12:59.come out. What do you mean? To not mention the words no?! We want the
:12:59. > :13:04.best of both worlds, the main title, Better Together, that is all very
:13:04. > :13:09.slick. Do you feel happy? You wrote last week that you thought that the
:13:09. > :13:13.rank and file a Labour members were excluded? Yes, they were excluded
:13:13. > :13:19.from the launch and that was because of the higher levels of
:13:19. > :13:23.MSPs, so there was a lot of concern about what would come out. It was
:13:23. > :13:26.contrasted well with the showbiz, the celebrity, the delist
:13:26. > :13:31.celebrities, the business people that should have nothing to do
:13:31. > :13:36.without. We brought it down to ordinary people and two responsible
:13:36. > :13:41.politicians. We focused on the rational arguments. That is the
:13:41. > :13:46.difference. But Uriah demand was not just about what message was
:13:46. > :13:53.going at the launch, it was about ordinary Labour Party people that
:13:53. > :13:57.would be the infantry that were not involved in this campaign. -- but
:13:57. > :14:02.your launch message was not just about what the message was that the
:14:02. > :14:06.launch. Yes, the vision of what Labour wanted to see Scotland in
:14:06. > :14:15.would be developed then. There are two different roles, they are paid
:14:15. > :14:18.to the Labour Party skills to the campaign and also, there is a
:14:18. > :14:21.Labour message on this. That is tricky to pull off. There will be
:14:21. > :14:27.Tories and Lib Dems there, and there will be non-political people
:14:27. > :14:33.there. That was the keynote to the launch. It reached across the
:14:33. > :14:38.parties and did not mention any particular party or policy. I was
:14:38. > :14:42.asking about the second question, Alex Salmond will make a big deal
:14:42. > :14:47.of this, and the answer seems to be, if you're part of the biggest block
:14:47. > :14:52.of people that want more powers, and you're prepared to vote no, but
:14:52. > :14:56.wait for an exciting Labour Party conference in the spring? The no
:14:56. > :15:00.cider quite a week on this, but certainly, the UK Government is
:15:00. > :15:08.aware that they have to do something to demonstrate they are
:15:08. > :15:11.serious about more power. You're quite right, the no campaign is
:15:11. > :15:16.predicated on there being only one question and they are confident
:15:16. > :15:21.they can win on that basis. But as we know, as it becomes less of a
:15:21. > :15:25.prospect that Alex Salmond can win this one question, he will ratchet
:15:25. > :15:30.up to the second question, and it will come down to a bust-up between
:15:30. > :15:35.the UK and Scottish Government if it gets to this. A UK ministerial
:15:35. > :15:40.mantra is that there will not be a second question, but it is not in
:15:40. > :15:44.their control fully. I am curious, because you do not have the same
:15:44. > :15:46.responsibilities, if the Scottish Government goes ahead with the two-
:15:46. > :15:52.question referendum, and they say we're not bothered with legal
:15:52. > :15:56.powers, would you consider that legitimate? I would boycott it,
:15:56. > :16:01.because it is legitimate. Independence is a matter of
:16:01. > :16:06.principle, a complete break accompli decision to set up a new
:16:06. > :16:13.state. Evolution is a process that we're going through at the moment.
:16:13. > :16:19.-- devolution. It is very spurious of Alex Sam Mantom sake that this
:16:19. > :16:23.campaign would have a continuing Tory government at Westminster. --
:16:23. > :16:27.of Alex Salmond to say. The SNP could win seats there with the
:16:27. > :16:32.long-term future of the country, the future that our children and
:16:32. > :16:36.our children's children will face. It is irresponsible and I think a
:16:37. > :16:40.legitimate to talk about a second question. The British government
:16:40. > :16:43.should not give in on this. Thank you.
:16:43. > :16:45.The first thing that we learned today about Rangers was that
:16:45. > :16:49.Strathclyde Police are going to conduct a criminal investigation
:16:49. > :16:52.into the goings on at the club since last May. Then more drama, if
:16:52. > :16:55.that's at all possible in this mess, with confirmation that nearly half
:16:55. > :16:58.of all clubs in the Scottish Premier League will vote against an
:16:58. > :17:08.application by the New Rangers Company to compete in the country's
:17:08. > :17:09.
:17:09. > :17:12.top division. This in itself raises a significant number of questions.
:17:13. > :17:19.If not the SPL, then will the New Rangers compete in the Scottish
:17:19. > :17:21.Football League? What will the repercussions of that be for
:17:21. > :17:24.television contracts with broadcasters like Sky and ESPN?
:17:24. > :17:27.What will the obvious loss of revenue mean for the new owner
:17:27. > :17:29.Charles Green - and where does this leave the national game? Our Senior
:17:29. > :17:32.Football Correspondent Chris McLaughlin has been following
:17:32. > :17:36.today's developments and joins me now from our newsroom.
:17:36. > :17:43.Are we certain that Rangers will not be playing in the SPL next
:17:43. > :17:49.season? Not certain, but it is likely. Six of the 12 SPL clubs
:17:49. > :17:54.have voted against, or say they will certainly vote no on the
:17:54. > :18:00.application for an S P L a new company. The vote takes place on
:18:00. > :18:04.fourth July. There was no real need for them to state their intentions
:18:04. > :18:13.before this. They will meet again on Thursday before the voting. It
:18:13. > :18:21.is a meeting to discuss exactlydog what is your reading? What to
:18:21. > :18:26.Rangers have to do it? They have to turn up to be meeting on fourth
:18:26. > :18:32.July and state their case and the implications of if the SPL voted No,
:18:32. > :18:38.the other clubs are well have a Scottish football meeting tomorrow
:18:38. > :18:44.to discuss the implications of how they can let Rangers entered the
:18:44. > :18:48.Scottish First Division or perhaps the Scottish Third Division. -- the
:18:48. > :18:52.other clubs will have a Scottish Football Association meeting. There
:18:52. > :18:57.needs to be an agreement for that to happen, but Rangers are not out
:18:57. > :19:00.of the woods regarding be Scottish Premier League or the Scottish
:19:00. > :19:03.Football League, so it is likely they will be playing in the
:19:03. > :19:09.Scottish Football League, Division One or Division Three next season.