0:00:09 > 0:00:13Queen's hand, it may suggest that Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, is
0:00:13 > 0:00:17it time for a shake-up of the welfare system? The Prime Minister
0:00:17 > 0:00:23seems to think so, is he right cutting housing benefit by the 20
0:00:23 > 0:00:29fives? The governor of California tells us that Scotland should forge
0:00:29 > 0:00:35ahead with same-sex marriages. Good evening. Will David Cameron
0:00:35 > 0:00:41succeed where other Tory leaders have failed in reforming the
0:00:41 > 0:00:46welfare system? Questions are being asked about he was paid, and if any
0:00:47 > 0:00:56reform will have a huge effect north of the border. -- who will be
0:00:57 > 0:01:02
0:01:02 > 0:01:08paid. It is time for a new image. Time to
0:01:08 > 0:01:13-- time for the Tories to show who they really are. David Cameron of
0:01:13 > 0:01:19talked about those who live their lives on benefits. The state will
0:01:19 > 0:01:23support you, you will always fail to take, no matter what you put in.
0:01:23 > 0:01:29He spelt out how that made the average worker feel. It has led to
0:01:29 > 0:01:33huge resentment of those who pay into the system, because they feel
0:01:33 > 0:01:37they are working, and others are getting without having to put in
0:01:37 > 0:01:43the effort. To see why this matters to Scotland, you only have to look
0:01:43 > 0:01:48at the latest figures. Out of the top ten areas in the UK where money
0:01:48 > 0:01:54is spent, seven of them are in Scotland, and four are in Glasgow.
0:01:54 > 0:02:04In Scotland, last year, �15 billion was spent on welfare and pensions.
0:02:04 > 0:02:05
0:02:05 > 0:02:08In this area alone, Glasgow �160 million East, �160 million was
0:02:08 > 0:02:17spent on welfare. One-in-five households could be affected if the
0:02:17 > 0:02:22changes take place. There were hints that the Tories would put in
0:02:22 > 0:02:26place regional rates. Some of the reforms would be popular, but many
0:02:26 > 0:02:30agree something needs to be done. Why was somebody want to get a job
0:02:30 > 0:02:34when they are better off on benefits? It doesn't make sense.
0:02:34 > 0:02:39They are having holidays, driving better cars, and I'm working five
0:02:39 > 0:02:44days a week for pittance. There are those out there who want to work,
0:02:44 > 0:02:49who want to get back into fending for themselves, they can't because
0:02:49 > 0:02:54the child care is far too expensive. Her first day back at work, I just
0:02:54 > 0:02:59had my baby three months ago, I am back off maternity leave. How's it
0:02:59 > 0:03:05going money wise? I am finding it very hard, when I was off, it was
0:03:05 > 0:03:10very hard with the wages. Hopefully, now I am back at work, I can bring
0:03:10 > 0:03:16some money in. I can get back, feet again. Do you play many benefits?
0:03:16 > 0:03:21was just getting maternity allowance, that visit. When you see
0:03:21 > 0:03:28others claiming benefits, not working, claiming lots of money,
0:03:28 > 0:03:34how does that make you feel? Very jealous. They run a lot of people
0:03:34 > 0:03:43who don't have to work. -- there are grey lot of people who don't
0:03:43 > 0:03:49have to work, and I pay council tax. I find that their every difficult.
0:03:49 > 0:03:53-- I find that very difficult. governments have tried to reform
0:03:53 > 0:04:00the benefit system. Is it time to wins out the old, have welcomed a
0:04:00 > 0:04:04whole new benefits system? -- rents out of the old. I'm joined by Dr
0:04:04 > 0:04:14Jim McCormick from the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, and the Deven
0:04:14 > 0:04:21Ghelani, from the centre from social justice. -- the centre for
0:04:21 > 0:04:27social justice. I think the Prime Minister has opened up a debate
0:04:27 > 0:04:35that the country has been having fears. People have been having it
0:04:35 > 0:04:40in workplaces across the country. People see it as a system that if
0:04:40 > 0:04:44you work hard, you wind work, people see it as unfair. You can
0:04:44 > 0:04:53tell that from the clip you are playing earlier. The problem is,
0:04:53 > 0:04:58they have already aroused a whole shed load of reforms. Iain Duncan-
0:04:58 > 0:05:00Smith, his universal benefit, not only has that not come into force,
0:05:01 > 0:05:05them are rumours it might be delayed, so why introduce a whole
0:05:05 > 0:05:12further system of reforms which may just complicate the original ones?
0:05:12 > 0:05:17You were right to points out that the universal credit is a major
0:05:17 > 0:05:21reform, a reform for the better. At the same time, it does not mean we
0:05:21 > 0:05:28can have a debate -- it does not mean we should not have a debate
0:05:28 > 0:05:38about other points of the bar their -- other points of the bar their
0:05:38 > 0:05:42system. It is something people wanted to have debate about. Nobody
0:05:42 > 0:05:47would say the system works well enough, it is broken. It does not
0:05:47 > 0:05:54reward people when they take the risk of a low-paid job. What kind
0:05:54 > 0:05:58of reforms should we stand for? Housing benefit for the under 25 is
0:05:58 > 0:06:04taking one part of a massive picture, it is not taking the most
0:06:04 > 0:06:07important part. We know that young people under 30 have a very high
0:06:08 > 0:06:13risk of ending up in the private rental sector over the next ten
0:06:13 > 0:06:17years. We know there aren't enough good-quality jobs in the economy.
0:06:18 > 0:06:22We know there is a high risk of work poverty. Those are the kind of
0:06:22 > 0:06:28issues, we have to look at the future of the labour market.
0:06:28 > 0:06:33point that has been made, Deven Ghelani, is the way that David
0:06:33 > 0:06:38Cameron has said that people who are out of work, this is people who
0:06:38 > 0:06:46are hard-working, only one in eight people receive housing benefit are
0:06:46 > 0:06:53out of work, so what we are dealing with, when it comes to the increase
0:06:53 > 0:07:03in payments at the start of the financial crash, is not a problem
0:07:03 > 0:07:08
0:07:08 > 0:07:11of the feckless poor, it is a I am not sure about that statistic.
0:07:11 > 0:07:18I was reading some information before taking India, and I think
0:07:18 > 0:07:23there is more to it than that. -- before I came in here. I do not
0:07:23 > 0:07:27think that this is about putting one group of people in work poverty
0:07:27 > 0:07:32against another, it is about reforming the system. Far too often,
0:07:32 > 0:07:36it works against the positive decisions that people are trying to
0:07:36 > 0:07:40make. We need to create a system that works with them. There are
0:07:40 > 0:07:43some questions about the future of housing and about the labour market,
0:07:43 > 0:07:49but that does not mean that you cannot have a debate about what
0:07:49 > 0:07:53kind of system you want at the same time. He would presumably accept
0:07:53 > 0:07:58that as we saw, particularly people that live in areas where there are
0:07:58 > 0:08:02many people on benefit, people feel very, very angry about this,
0:08:02 > 0:08:09because they will go to work every day and they have never had a job
0:08:09 > 0:08:12and her family had not had a job, and they can end up like to
0:08:12 > 0:08:17families living next door, and the family on the right benefits can
0:08:17 > 0:08:23end up with more take-home pay Ben and the people that are working.
0:08:23 > 0:08:27There are examples where people can be better off out of work, but that
0:08:27 > 0:08:32is the case for insuring that we have a vision of good quality work
0:08:32 > 0:08:37where people can earn more by taking the risk and becoming an
0:08:37 > 0:08:43example. If you're in Dublin had to wear a lone parent, you can keep
0:08:43 > 0:08:47five times as much, sorry, you can and five times more than before you
0:08:47 > 0:08:52lose the benefit income. We could have a much more flexible welfare
0:08:52 > 0:08:59system. We need to massively increase work incentives and do
0:08:59 > 0:09:05something about the very high rates of the child care costs. Focusing
0:09:05 > 0:09:10their, I think there would be more of a consensus in Scotland. I am
0:09:10 > 0:09:14sure some of the people in that film I would say, hang on, of what
0:09:14 > 0:09:19annoys us is that there are these people that came off the state and
0:09:19 > 0:09:23we are hard-working, and what you say is effectively, reform the
0:09:23 > 0:09:28employment system, but that is not going to happen. It is a problem
0:09:28 > 0:09:32that politicians have missed in the decade of growth before the
0:09:32 > 0:09:35recession north and south of the border. That destroys human
0:09:35 > 0:09:39motivation to keep trying to we look for work and when you're in
0:09:39 > 0:09:43work, if the risk is you will lose it quickly, there is a structural
0:09:43 > 0:09:50problem with the labour market that we had to deal with in the next few
0:09:50 > 0:09:54years. By scrapping housing benefit for under 25, it is political kite-
0:09:54 > 0:09:59flying, which is understandable for a party leader, but in the long
0:09:59 > 0:10:05term, it is concerning because it takes the eye off the ball on the
0:10:05 > 0:10:10big issues about the future of work as much as the benefit system.
0:10:10 > 0:10:15idea that was floated by people around David Cameron, although it
0:10:15 > 0:10:20was left out of the speech, was the idea of paying differential benefit
0:10:20 > 0:10:24rates in different regions of the UK. What is the logic of that? Is
0:10:24 > 0:10:29that a runner? I wanted to jumping quickly and something Jim said
0:10:29 > 0:10:36about the labour market, there is a separate debate there, but at the
0:10:36 > 0:10:40same time, I think this is often about the benefits system as well.
0:10:40 > 0:10:45We had during a period of economic growth, and number of people that
0:10:45 > 0:10:48remained on benefits right through that period of economic growth. It
0:10:48 > 0:10:53wasn't the labour market joy the economy stopping them from getting
0:10:53 > 0:11:00into work, one of the major issues was the benefits system. What about
0:11:01 > 0:11:06regionalisation? This is a debate that has been opened up in the
0:11:06 > 0:11:10context of welfare. Regional benefits is a good one to have her.
0:11:10 > 0:11:13There has to dealings to be debate that it stems around different
0:11:13 > 0:11:17living costs in different parts of the country. Perhaps benefits
0:11:17 > 0:11:21should reflect that. We have got time to have this debate, it is not
0:11:21 > 0:11:26something that needs to be responded to two days after the
0:11:26 > 0:11:33speech. It is something we want to think about, unless there are some
0:11:33 > 0:11:38news that Tim already has on this direction. Briefly? In London,
0:11:38 > 0:11:42there is an extremely high housing costs, you need to Ligeti
0:11:42 > 0:11:46differential rate of minimum wage rather than the benefits system. --
0:11:46 > 0:11:50you need to look at a differential rate. If you have one benefit rate
0:11:51 > 0:11:56across the country, in the area with lower wages, the benefits
0:11:56 > 0:12:01become a greater disincentive to get work, that has a logic there.
0:12:01 > 0:12:04We would have to do some testing, but let's assume that Scotland had
0:12:05 > 0:12:09more power in the welfare system, it is unlikely that he would want
0:12:09 > 0:12:13to see the Government in Scotland at varying rates of benefit any
0:12:13 > 0:12:18time soon, because there are cross- border issues. The important issue
0:12:18 > 0:12:22is to look at doing something about the massive tax rate that people
0:12:22 > 0:12:27working on low pay will face consistently. Universal credit in
0:12:27 > 0:12:31principle should be a helpful step. In practice, you need to make sure
0:12:31 > 0:12:36that it interacts with Council Tax Benefit proper late which has been
0:12:36 > 0:12:38devolved to Scotland. We need to leave it there. Thank you. The
0:12:38 > 0:12:41Scottish government is due to publish details of its consultation
0:12:41 > 0:12:43on whether to introduce a bill allowing same sex marriage shortly.
0:12:43 > 0:12:46It has been enormously controversial prompting more than
0:12:46 > 0:12:4850,000 responses - more than double the number who replied to the
0:12:48 > 0:12:53consultation on independence. The Governor of California, Jerry Brown,
0:12:53 > 0:12:56has told BBC Scotland, politicians here could learn from his state.
0:12:56 > 0:13:00There, the public voted to ban same sex marriage but now the governor
0:13:00 > 0:13:10believes there may be a majority in favour. From San Francisco, our
0:13:10 > 0:13:19
0:13:19 > 0:13:24political correspondent, Raymond San Francisco's reputation for
0:13:24 > 0:13:29tolerance is legendary. This is a city that not only accepts what
0:13:30 > 0:13:34other are deemed unacceptable, but celebrated. -- what the other his
0:13:34 > 0:13:39teens. Sunday was gay pride Day, and nobody does it bigger and
0:13:39 > 0:13:43brighter than San Francisco. The theme of this year's pride was
0:13:43 > 0:13:46equality. Campaigners believe that after years of fighting they will
0:13:46 > 0:13:51soon have the right for those of the same sex to get married, and
0:13:51 > 0:13:55they want that elsewhere also, including Scotland. They might look
0:13:55 > 0:14:01at California because there was a lot of opposition to same-sex
0:14:01 > 0:14:06marriage a decade ago. But very regularly, this opposition has
0:14:06 > 0:14:11declined. So I would say, today maybe there is a slight majority in
0:14:11 > 0:14:16favour of same-sex marriage. California's relationship with
0:14:16 > 0:14:20same-sex marriages complicated. In June of 2008, the state allowed
0:14:20 > 0:14:25same-sex couples to get married, only for the decision to be
0:14:25 > 0:14:29overturned. Proposition eight won a majority at the ballot, arguing
0:14:29 > 0:14:34marriage should only be between a man and woman. Since then, the
0:14:34 > 0:14:39decision has come to the courts and in the meantime, this ban stands.
0:14:39 > 0:14:44Are either never forget, in City Hall, and in the American ceremony,
0:14:44 > 0:14:50you hear the words, you hear them at the end, and now by virtue of
0:14:50 > 0:14:54the authority vested in me, by the state of California, I pronounce
0:14:54 > 0:14:58you spasms for life. I pronounce you, legally married. John and
0:14:58 > 0:15:04Stewart got married in the short window that Californian law allowed.
0:15:04 > 0:15:09Since then, they have campaigned for others to follow this lead.
0:15:09 > 0:15:14There was a moment that I felt, well, this is a first time as a gay
0:15:14 > 0:15:20person, as a couple together for years and years, but we feel that
0:15:20 > 0:15:26our government is treating us as equal human beings. The couple are
0:15:26 > 0:15:31part of marriage equality USA, that aims to persuade politicians across
0:15:31 > 0:15:35America to back same-sex marriage. They succeeded here in California,
0:15:35 > 0:15:40but how? Sometimes we go to lawmakers in Sacramento and they
0:15:40 > 0:15:44would say, I do not have any same- sex couples in my district. I do
0:15:44 > 0:15:48not represent anyone with these concerns. It was important to be
0:15:48 > 0:15:53able to put them in touch with their road constituents that were
0:15:53 > 0:15:57deprived of the freedom to marry and say, you represent me! I need
0:15:57 > 0:16:02you have so that I can marry the person that I love. That is the
0:16:02 > 0:16:06single most important way to change hearts and minds, from talking to
0:16:06 > 0:16:12your neighbour to talking to your representative in the legislature.
0:16:12 > 0:16:17It worked for Barack Obama. I think same-sex couples should be allowed
0:16:17 > 0:16:21to get married. My daughters have friends whose parents are same-sex
0:16:21 > 0:16:28couples. We have sat around the dinner table and spoke about their
0:16:28 > 0:16:33friends and their parents and it would not dawn on them that somehow,
0:16:33 > 0:16:37their friends' parents would be treated differently. Jenny and Lisa
0:16:37 > 0:16:41were on a worldwide trip when they heard about the change apart from
0:16:41 > 0:16:47the President. They were delighted. They got engaged wives on holidays
0:16:47 > 0:16:51and cannot wait to get a date for Edie recognised wedding. A marriage
0:16:51 > 0:16:55is equality. A Civil Union is separate but equal, but we are
0:16:55 > 0:17:00going to have a wedding this weekend for a family member, a
0:17:00 > 0:17:05heterosexual couple, and it is just different. We want the same thing.
0:17:05 > 0:17:10We want our families to recognise what we're doing is just a special
0:17:10 > 0:17:15and as big a commitment. My parents emigrated here and are very
0:17:15 > 0:17:20religious. Four of them, they definitely do not approve of this,
0:17:20 > 0:17:24and when proposition 8 went into the ballot in 2008, they
0:17:24 > 0:17:29contributed money to support it. One I found out about this can I
0:17:29 > 0:17:33was very hurt, and I feel like for me, having legal marriage
0:17:33 > 0:17:38invalidates in some way to them as well. I do not know if I could
0:17:38 > 0:17:43change their mind, but it is like, look, this is where society is apt,
0:17:43 > 0:17:47and things change and our relationship is just as legitimate.
0:17:47 > 0:17:50The main opposition like in Scotland has come from religious
0:17:50 > 0:17:54organisations like the Catholic Church, believing that marriage
0:17:54 > 0:17:59should be between a man and a woman had believing they have the
0:17:59 > 0:18:06majority of the public on their side. The dices in a San Francisco
0:18:06 > 0:18:11declined an interview. The governor refused to defend proposition eight
0:18:11 > 0:18:15when he was a top law officer. This is why. Our job is not to give
0:18:15 > 0:18:19brilliant speech is only, but also to lead the people and get them to
0:18:19 > 0:18:28follow. That is a matter of bed each leader in each community has
0:18:28 > 0:18:33to make his own decision. Last week, Alex Salmond a visited California
0:18:33 > 0:18:40but he says that he backs the change but one's opponents to feel
0:18:40 > 0:18:43they are not being ignored. You can have an adequate or process. I am
0:18:43 > 0:18:47determined in Scotland that we will have a debate worthy of the
0:18:47 > 0:18:50seriousness of this subject. People can have confidence that their
0:18:50 > 0:18:55voices are entitled to be heard and has been heard of the process
0:18:55 > 0:18:59unfolds. The Scottish government is due to reveal details of the
0:18:59 > 0:19:03consultation shortly. If they decide to reform the law, they