:00:09. > :00:12.get on to all the other things that On Newsnight Scotland tonight,
:00:12. > :00:14.government welfare changes are going to mean a real cut in income
:00:14. > :00:20.for some of the most vulnerable people - families with disabled
:00:20. > :00:25.children. There are 70,000 disabled children in Scotland. The gloomy
:00:25. > :00:27.predictions come in a new report by a children's charity. Is this
:00:27. > :00:32.special pleading, or a legitimate forecast of a crumbling welfare
:00:32. > :00:36.system? Good evening.
:00:36. > :00:38.We are in the middle of a profound process of change in our welfare
:00:38. > :00:41.system. The UK government is unpicking a complicated system of
:00:41. > :00:46.benefits, aiming to direct help where it's most needed, but also to
:00:46. > :00:50.encourage many benefit claimants to get back into work. Critics say the
:00:50. > :00:53.process is having unfortunate consequences. They say changes will
:00:53. > :00:57.see reductions in real income for some families with disabled
:00:57. > :01:00.children, and that was never anyone's intention. The UK
:01:00. > :01:04.Government says most families with disabled children will be better
:01:04. > :01:07.off, a view not shared by disability charities. As our
:01:07. > :01:09.reporter Ian Hamilton discovered, one charity is saying that families
:01:09. > :01:19.with disabled children are being dispropotionately hit by the
:01:19. > :01:22.
:01:22. > :01:26.current and imminent cuts. Jackson has a rare form of Down's
:01:26. > :01:30.syndrome, which means he requires constant supervision.
:01:30. > :01:37.Physically, he has problems with muscle tone, he has problems with
:01:37. > :01:43.his hips, he has learned difficulties. He is 10 years old,
:01:43. > :01:49.but mentally, he is four or five years old. He also has undiagnosed
:01:49. > :01:54.autism. As a single parent, his care is all
:01:54. > :01:58.down to his mother, and she is not alone. According to the charity
:01:58. > :02:02.Contact A Family, nearly one in four disabled people in Scotland
:02:02. > :02:07.are cared for by a disabled parent. Have I read, a lot of these
:02:07. > :02:10.families are struggling. I have spoken to a charity who say that
:02:10. > :02:15.they are struggling disproportionately, and that is
:02:15. > :02:20.before the government introduced the majority of their reforms.
:02:20. > :02:24.Contact A Family is a 58% of the parents think they are worse off,
:02:24. > :02:28.and 82% of them put this down to the introduction of the welfare
:02:28. > :02:32.reforms. Our research shows that families
:02:32. > :02:38.with single children - Barker with disabled children are going without
:02:38. > :02:43.essential items like clothing, food and heating. They are facing
:02:43. > :02:47.spiralling debt problems and are trying to make ends meet. Research
:02:47. > :02:52.shows it cost three times as much to bring up a child with a
:02:52. > :02:57.disability. 200 of the affected charities were
:02:57. > :03:01.in Scotland. 82% of people said they have gone without sunny
:03:01. > :03:08.because they lack of cash. 19% they have bag say they have gone without
:03:08. > :03:13.food, 18% said they have gone without heating. 61% say they have
:03:13. > :03:20.not got clothes, 48% have gone into council tax arrears, and 21% cannot
:03:20. > :03:27.pay their mortgage. The edited said cannot afford specialist equipment.
:03:27. > :03:31.-- 32%. It is quite frustrating. I am the
:03:31. > :03:35.kind of person, I want to go out and I want to work, and it is
:03:35. > :03:40.better for me, and it keeps me happy, and obviously, if I am happy,
:03:40. > :03:44.it is better for my son, but the whole thing about self-esteem as
:03:44. > :03:48.well, if you are working you feel better about yourself. It is
:03:48. > :03:54.practically impossible to get the hours at the rate of pay that you
:03:54. > :03:59.would like. Basically, to keep your carer's allowance, you have to earn
:04:00. > :04:04.less than what you would get. On the other hand, to get working tax
:04:04. > :04:09.credit, you have to do 16 hours a week, so try to get a 16 hour a
:04:09. > :04:17.week job that is six past 20 or less an hour is practically
:04:17. > :04:21.impossible. -- �6.20. My son's life changed me in many
:04:21. > :04:24.ways. I could not come to a conference on autism without
:04:24. > :04:29.drawing on my own experience and try to tell you the lessons that I
:04:29. > :04:33.have learnt about how we can make life better for disabled people and
:04:33. > :04:36.for their families. Some say given his own personal
:04:36. > :04:41.experience, the Prime Minister may have been more empathetic to
:04:41. > :04:44.parents with disabled children. I think they missed is appointed
:04:44. > :04:49.and frustration on the part of many families. The government's response
:04:49. > :04:52.is that they will have transitional protection, so that families that
:04:52. > :04:55.are moving from the current system to universal credit will have their
:04:55. > :04:59.income guaranteed, the problem is that the transitional protection
:04:59. > :05:04.will be frozen at will not be increased with inflation, so over
:05:04. > :05:08.time, is extinct families will be worse off. -- existing families.
:05:08. > :05:13.The other thing is that this does not help future generations of
:05:13. > :05:19.disabled children, who will not be covered by this.
:05:19. > :05:23.It is the fear of the unknown that is troubling family is the most.
:05:23. > :05:28.It is a struggle as it is, to have any sort of contentment in your
:05:28. > :05:32.life, to try and make things normal, so to do this, to put extra
:05:32. > :05:36.pressure on the people, it is absurd.
:05:36. > :05:39.We met with the minister for disabled people and asked her why
:05:39. > :05:44.the West best at a club was choosing to cut back on benefits
:05:44. > :05:47.for parents of disabled children specifically. Her response was that
:05:47. > :05:51.the parents of disabled children were getting too much money that
:05:51. > :05:55.they needed to be relied the disabled adults, and the money
:05:55. > :05:59.reduced. We think disabled adults should have their income increased,
:05:59. > :06:03.not disabled children be penalised because of that.
:06:03. > :06:09.The UK government says that some families will win with the new
:06:09. > :06:13.welfare reforms. But charities also say many more families will lose.
:06:13. > :06:17.It is a waiting game, to see if this family will be richer or
:06:17. > :06:20.poorer. Now, we asked the coalition's
:06:20. > :06:22.Minister for Disabled People to join us on the programme, but she
:06:22. > :06:25.was unavailable tonight. Her department told us "too many people
:06:25. > :06:28.have been systematically failed by the current benefits system". I'm
:06:28. > :06:30.joined from Dundee by Professor Paul Spicker, director of the
:06:30. > :06:33.public policy studies at Robert Gordon University, from London by
:06:33. > :06:36.Matthew Sinclair, director of the Taxpayers' Alliance, and here in
:06:36. > :06:46.Glasgow by Margaret Lynch, who's newly in post as chief executive of
:06:46. > :06:47.
:06:47. > :06:53.Citizens Advice Scotland. Thank you all very much for coming
:06:53. > :06:58.in it. Margaret, if we start with the experiences and concerns that
:06:58. > :07:04.have been identified three or offices, what our parents telling
:07:04. > :07:09.you? Our managers who operate across the
:07:09. > :07:14.whole of Scotland are reporting to us and absolutely massive increase
:07:14. > :07:19.in have people coming to them with a very real concerns over welfare
:07:19. > :07:27.and benefits reform, in particular, people who have someone in the
:07:27. > :07:32.family who has a disability. There are reportedly huge increases in
:07:32. > :07:37.the numbers of families who are having to go to charities, for
:07:37. > :07:42.example, to get food parcels to help tide them over between one
:07:42. > :07:47.benefit payment at the next. That is the situation of where the full
:07:47. > :07:53.impact -- full impact has not yet dawned upon us. They are very real
:07:53. > :07:57.concerns about the impact this will have on some of the most vulnerable
:07:57. > :08:03.families across communities in Scotland.
:08:03. > :08:06.Paul, we know that almost a quarter of Scotland, almost 70,000 people
:08:06. > :08:10.are cared for by a single parent, had many of them are living in
:08:10. > :08:13.poverty at the moment. Do you think there is evidence that these
:08:14. > :08:16.children are being particularly disadvantaged by the way the
:08:16. > :08:22.welfare reforms have been structured?
:08:22. > :08:28.That is a very difficult question to answer. The problem is that so
:08:28. > :08:35.few details about the levels of benefit, about the rules, about the
:08:35. > :08:40.way the new system will work, had actually been released, that it is
:08:40. > :08:44.based on guesses, on fears, at -- on uncertainties. I think the
:08:45. > :08:49.apprehension that people are expressing is reasonable, but when
:08:49. > :08:53.I have been asked how it will affect individuals, I find it very
:08:53. > :08:57.difficult to give people a straight answer. There appeared to rescind
:08:57. > :09:02.government response to the Joint Committee on Human Rights, they
:09:02. > :09:06.seem to take the same view, that there are simply too many different
:09:06. > :09:13.factors to take into account to give people a clear, sensible
:09:13. > :09:15.answer about what is going to I suppose if we know that a very
:09:15. > :09:20.significant percentage of these children are already living in
:09:20. > :09:24.poverty, we also know that, for example, it costs three times more
:09:24. > :09:28.for childcare for a disabled child than an able-bodied child, and
:09:28. > :09:32.expenses in general are higher, I suppose it might be a reasonable
:09:32. > :09:36.estimate to say that given those circumstances and figures there
:09:36. > :09:41.will be a disproportionate hit here. It's certainly true that people are
:09:41. > :09:46.vulnerable. I would put a little caution about that statement that
:09:47. > :09:53.disabled children cost three times as much. Some do, but some cost far
:09:53. > :09:56.more. The extreme case I referred to as being children who have
:09:56. > :10:01.what's called a technological dependency, where we can be talking
:10:01. > :10:05.about thousands of pounds to maintain a child in their own home
:10:05. > :10:09.in a way that wouldn't necessarily be true of others, but equally,
:10:09. > :10:16.there will be others where it's less so, but you're right that
:10:16. > :10:18.where we're talking about poor finance that any attempt to --
:10:18. > :10:24.families that any attempt to transfer money away from people who
:10:24. > :10:28.are on low incomes must leave them with lower incomes still. That is
:10:28. > :10:32.basic math. It's quite unavoidable during this sort of reform.
:10:32. > :10:36.Let's pick up one of the points Paul raised there. We have a
:10:36. > :10:41.Government statement tonight saying, "We're driving forward our welfare
:10:41. > :10:43.reforms to simplify the system." Paul is talking about different
:10:44. > :10:48.children will have different needs and their circumstances will change
:10:48. > :10:53.- there does seem to be clear evidence that the system has been
:10:53. > :10:56.oversimplified to the point where it no longer responds appropriately
:10:56. > :10:59.to specific needs and circumstances. I don't think that's true at all.
:10:59. > :11:03.You have to look at this report. There are two halves to it. One
:11:03. > :11:07.half is looking at what are the financial pressures on families
:11:07. > :11:09.with disabled children today? It finds those pressures are very
:11:09. > :11:14.severe, which is absolutely understandable because we have all
:11:15. > :11:18.sorts of things which are affecting all kinds of families, whether it's
:11:18. > :11:22.higher electricity bills because of policies that subsidise some energy
:11:22. > :11:25.and increase the price to consumers, whether it's higher Value Added Tax,
:11:25. > :11:31.all sorts of things which affect families of all kinds but
:11:31. > :11:35.particularly affects those families who are struggling the most, so
:11:35. > :11:38.they do affect families with disabilities the most. That is very
:11:38. > :11:41.separate issue. It's important that it's very separate from the
:11:41. > :11:45.question of whether these welfare reforms are a serious problem for
:11:45. > :11:49.those families, and that's where I think that a lot of this is
:11:49. > :11:54.massively overstated. If you look at the - the evidence in this
:11:55. > :11:58.report was that the two benefits people were most concerned about
:11:58. > :12:01.were Disability Living Allowance and its change to the personal
:12:01. > :12:05.independence payment and the universal credits - now, the
:12:05. > :12:09.universal credit is one which will apply across the board to families
:12:09. > :12:12.in need of benefits. I don't think there is anything particularly in
:12:12. > :12:16.there that disabled families have to be concerned about because that
:12:16. > :12:20.isn't the mechanism to give them that specific support you're
:12:20. > :12:25.talking about. Disability living as llowance is designed to better
:12:25. > :12:30.focus resources on the families that need it the most. There is no
:12:30. > :12:33.big cuts coming through. All that's happening is resources
:12:33. > :12:36.are being focused so we can keep down the big increase in that bill
:12:36. > :12:42.that's coming through, so it should better help these families. It's
:12:42. > :12:48.not going to be less specific. Let's just get a specific response.
:12:48. > :12:52.End the DWP wouldn't agree with mathew. It has been fairly publicly
:12:52. > :12:58.stated that the affect of the welfare benefit reforms will be to
:12:58. > :13:02.take �2 billion out of the welfare payments that are made, and exactly
:13:02. > :13:06.half of that... People borrowing... You have to let her finish. Carry
:13:06. > :13:09.on. Exactly half of that will be to families where there is a disabled
:13:09. > :13:14.member in the family or somebody who has suffered unemployment
:13:14. > :13:20.because they've got a long-term illness or condition, so it's
:13:20. > :13:24.simply not true to say that we have no... Sorry. No, no, Martin you
:13:24. > :13:27.can't talk over each other or no- one will hear anyone. Let her make
:13:27. > :13:33.this point. In terms of how this affects families in Scotland, we
:13:33. > :13:38.know because Sheffield Halum university use the DWP's statistics
:13:38. > :13:43.that over 170,000 current claimants, 115,000 will lose benefit, and of
:13:43. > :13:46.them, 65,000 will be taken out of the benefits system. No, no.
:13:46. > :13:50.Matthew - Matthew, briefly respond to that because I want to move on
:13:50. > :13:54.to some other points. Briefly respond to that, then. The reality
:13:54. > :13:57.is that that cut is that we're going to arrest a big increase in
:13:57. > :14:01.this bill. This bill has been increasing dramatically in recent
:14:01. > :14:04.years. The tradgeektion was for it to continue to increase. We're
:14:04. > :14:08.saying with all the many other areas of spending which are
:14:08. > :14:12.actually being cut, this area of spending, we need to arrest the
:14:12. > :14:14.rise. It's not a cut in the way people hear about. This kind of
:14:14. > :14:20.inflated rhetoric is one of the reasons people are more concerned
:14:20. > :14:23.than they need to be. It's leading to some concerns that... It's true
:14:23. > :14:30.that there's been a rise in recent years, but that rise has been
:14:30. > :14:34.mainly through two groups which are claimed more Disability Living
:14:34. > :14:38.Allowance more frequently. The first of those are people with
:14:38. > :14:41.mental illness. The second are older people who are getting
:14:41. > :14:46.extensions on Disability Living Allowance. Both of those are going
:14:46. > :14:49.to be maintained in the new reform, and the projections for expendture
:14:49. > :14:54.that the Government is giving us are set to increase, so we've then
:14:54. > :14:56.got to ask, where are the savings coming from? And the savings, where
:14:57. > :15:00.they're intended, come from different groups of people, not the
:15:00. > :15:04.ones who are driving the increase. Right. Let's talk about the
:15:04. > :15:07.different groups who are competing here. How important is it, do you
:15:07. > :15:11.think that in this debate disabled children, for example, are not set
:15:11. > :15:15.up against the pensioners? Because that's another area they're looking
:15:15. > :15:20.at reforms in. I think it's critical. It's outrageous to
:15:20. > :15:23.suggest one group of very vulnerable people should have the -
:15:23. > :15:28.feel like the risk is transferred from them to another group. This is
:15:28. > :15:32.not the answer. I mean, the answer certainly is we would agree with
:15:32. > :15:37.the Government that those who are able to work should be supported
:15:37. > :15:40.into employment, but really, the answer - the - lies with economic
:15:40. > :15:43.development and ensuring that there are jobs for people to go to.
:15:43. > :15:47.Matthew, let me ask you something that's running parallel to all of
:15:47. > :15:51.this. Aside from benefits, there is also the changes that councils are
:15:51. > :15:55.making to the kind of support services they can give to families.
:15:55. > :16:00.It's absolutely the case those are being cut back, aren't they? So you
:16:00. > :16:04.can see that scenario that parents with particular needs could be
:16:04. > :16:07.disproportionately disadvantaged. Look, what councils need to do in
:16:07. > :16:10.the same way it's happening across Government is they need the look at
:16:10. > :16:15.their priorities. We have seen in councils across the UK, for example,
:16:15. > :16:19.There was a ninefold increase in the decade in the number of staff
:16:19. > :16:22.earning over �50,000 a year, whereas in the wider economy, there
:16:22. > :16:26.was just a threefold increase in that number. There are ways
:16:26. > :16:32.councils can strike priorities, just as the Government has, and as
:16:32. > :16:37.a result, the disability benefits budget, is being frozen even after
:16:37. > :16:44.adjusting for inflation, not being cut, as has been suggested.
:16:44. > :16:48.have made that point. That point is actually contested by Paul, but I
:16:48. > :16:53.wanted to ask you something else before we leave this Paul. In terms
:16:53. > :16:56.of the priorities you suggested earlier the Government was making -
:16:56. > :16:59.the choices they were making - what choices do you think they're making
:16:59. > :17:04.right now which might be slightly under the radar? Paul, sorry.
:17:04. > :17:08.question that you asked first was about whether people were being set
:17:08. > :17:13.against pensioners, and I am afraid the sad truth is, yes, they are. We
:17:13. > :17:18.constantly hear about the global expendture that there is on
:17:18. > :17:23.benefits. What people I think don't realise is that two-thirds of that
:17:23. > :17:27.expenditure, that's two-thirds of all the money paid out by the
:17:27. > :17:32.develop -- Department for Work and Pensions goes to old people -
:17:32. > :17:36.people who are above working age - that means the there is no way to
:17:36. > :17:42.reduce the budget by the sorts of figures that Government has been
:17:42. > :17:44.talking about without directing that to some degree towards
:17:44. > :17:49.pensioners. Now, what the Government has actually been doing
:17:49. > :17:53.is it has been focusing on what it calls the out-of-work benefits, and
:17:53. > :17:57.it's bundled disability benefits in with the out-of-work benefits, but
:17:57. > :18:00.that's a much smaller proportion. OK. And there is just no way of
:18:00. > :18:05.pulling the money out of the budget in the way that they're hoping to
:18:05. > :18:09.do. Right. What will be happening, I am afraid is that benefits bill
:18:09. > :18:12.will be increasing, and it will be increasing because the numbers of
:18:12. > :18:15.pensioners are increasing. We have to leave it there. Thank you very
:18:15. > :18:25.much indeed. A very quick look at tomorrow's
:18:25. > :18:47.
:18:47. > :18:50.That is it for me for tonight. A Heavy showers continue to affect
:18:51. > :18:55.parts of the UK overnight. It's heavy rain in Eastern Scotland into
:18:55. > :19:00.the north-east of England, which lasts through much of the day on
:19:00. > :19:04.Wednesday. Elsewhere you may see a bit of sunshine, but those heavy,
:19:04. > :19:08.possibly thundery downpours get going again. North-west England
:19:08. > :19:10.could stay dry. Across north-east England, you have rain or showers.
:19:11. > :19:13.The showers in East Anglia and the south-east heavy and possibly
:19:14. > :19:18.thundery into the afternoon, but with some sunshine in between, and
:19:18. > :19:22.those in south-west England - it's not a constant washout. You'll see
:19:22. > :19:26.glimpses of sunshine in between the scattered showers. Most of the
:19:26. > :19:29.showers fade away from Wales. Late in the afternoons it will get some
:19:29. > :19:33.sunshine, feel pleasant. In between the showers in Northern Ireland,
:19:33. > :19:36.sunny spells. The sun hard to find in Scotland, a grey, gloomy day,
:19:36. > :19:41.showers to the north. A cool feel to the weather especially in the
:19:41. > :19:46.east in the rain. By the time we're all said and done, Edinburgh could
:19:46. > :19:48.see 20-30 millimetres, about an inch of rain. A Met Office warning
:19:48. > :19:52.in force. That much rain could bring possible disruption. That's
:19:52. > :19:56.the picture for Wednesday - the rain continuing in Edinburgh. Look
:19:56. > :19:59.at Thursday. Much of the northern UK has a brighter day. In contrast
:19:59. > :20:02.for England and Wales, we see coming up from the south-west
:20:02. > :20:05.another wet weather system, and some of this rain coming in on