:00:12. > :00:16.on the stable door has been drawn Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, the
:00:16. > :00:19.Government failed to meet its climate change targets for 2010.
:00:19. > :00:25.They say it was down to the unusually hard winter but what does
:00:25. > :00:29.it say about their strategy to cut emissions?
:00:29. > :00:35.And the decision is there is no decision yet. Why is the Scottish
:00:35. > :00:38.Government hesitating over gay marriage? Good evening. Maybe we
:00:38. > :00:42.should all have put on an extra jumper, according to the Scottish
:00:42. > :00:46.Government, the cold winter was the reason why they failed to meet
:00:46. > :00:53.targets for greenhouse gas emissions. Their long-term targets
:00:53. > :01:01.to reduce emissions by 40% but then rose by nearly 2% recently. Is this
:01:01. > :01:05.a simple as turning down the central heating?
:01:05. > :01:10.Industry, coal and gas power stations and transport are all
:01:10. > :01:13.sources of carbon dioxide and other gases that cause global warming.
:01:13. > :01:17.The Scottish Government has set ambitious targets to reduce the
:01:17. > :01:27.country's emissions year on year with the aim of cutting greenhouse
:01:27. > :01:37.gases by 40% by 2020. But his -- and they are already on their way
:01:37. > :01:39.
:01:39. > :01:48.with emissions 24% down since 1990. Much of this was achieved not by a
:01:48. > :01:52.deliberate green agenda but by de industrialisation. It seems all the
:01:52. > :01:57.more surprising that snow brought more than transport chaos in its
:01:57. > :02:03.wake. The Minister for Climate Change to
:02:03. > :02:10.a Stevenson is in our Edinburgh studio. -- Stewart Stevenson. The
:02:10. > :02:16.message seems to be that we cannot reduce the climate greenhouse gas
:02:16. > :02:22.emissions if there is a cold winter. It was exceptionally cold. Six
:02:23. > :02:30.months of winter and 3.5 months at the start of the year and 2.5
:02:30. > :02:33.months out the end of the year. They call this winter for 100 years.
:02:33. > :02:39.Nor climate change targets would not be worth the paper they are
:02:39. > :02:43.written on then? We have been making a lot of the key changes
:02:43. > :02:47.that will deliver in the longer term. The latency period, how long
:02:47. > :02:53.it takes for the benefits to kick in - for example waiting the number
:02:53. > :03:01.of houses that meet energy efficiency targets and standards by
:03:01. > :03:08.7% over the year 2009/10, that is a big increase in tree-planting by
:03:08. > :03:12.50%. These are all actions that are sensible. Something even bigger
:03:12. > :03:17.there, though, isn't there? A sharp fall in the year before we are
:03:17. > :03:21.talking about because it was a recession. You would expect more
:03:21. > :03:28.greenhouse gas emissions because of the recession, therefore if the
:03:28. > :03:36.economy ever picks up you would expect that alone to lead to a rise
:03:36. > :03:41.in greenhouse gas emissions. It is a fair point but what we have seen
:03:41. > :03:46.in 2010 is we have moved further ahead of our colleagues elsewhere
:03:46. > :03:50.in the UK while simultaneously having higher levels of employment.
:03:50. > :03:54.Where the actions of the Scottish Government have ensured that we
:03:54. > :03:58.have been less hard hit by the recession, than has been the case
:03:58. > :04:03.south of the border, yet we have increased the gap with the rest of
:04:03. > :04:08.the UK. That in part is down to the actions we have been taking. Many
:04:08. > :04:12.of which to that the benefit of the climate change agenda over the
:04:12. > :04:17.longer run whereas weather is something that is immediate, it
:04:17. > :04:21.happens now and you can predict against averages, you can build in
:04:21. > :04:26.allowances for worse than average weather. 2010 was a most
:04:26. > :04:30.exceptional year though. Can you just explain what is going on here?
:04:30. > :04:37.Since the turn of the century, brewhouse gases from power supply
:04:37. > :04:46.soon to have fallen by about 20% -- greenhouse gases. That is because
:04:46. > :04:52.of renewable energy? We have in 201135 % of consumption from
:04:52. > :04:56.renewable sources. But residential uses have barely changed.
:04:56. > :05:01.residential settings we are a largely using fossil fuels and in
:05:01. > :05:06.particular 2010, we saw a dramatic increase in the burning of gas. We
:05:06. > :05:14.already know that in 2011 for the United Kingdom, the amount of gas
:05:14. > :05:18.being burnt presidential Lee has dropped by a quarter and that
:05:18. > :05:22.illustrates the rapid response that there was in 2010 to be very
:05:22. > :05:29.serious weather conditions and the reliance that we continue to have
:05:29. > :05:34.all domestic heating and office heating upon gas. Fine, but
:05:34. > :05:38.business emissions have gone down very sharply since 1990 which is
:05:38. > :05:45.when you choose to start your base period from. That is according to
:05:45. > :05:55.your own documents largely because the nitric acid manufacturing plant
:05:55. > :05:55.
:05:55. > :06:00.in Leeds -- Leith moved to Ireland. It has got nothing to do with
:06:00. > :06:09.government policy, we have had nothing happening in households. We
:06:09. > :06:18.have had admittedly a fall in power supply but that is from renewables.
:06:18. > :06:21.Wed you get the other half? -- Where do you get? We have
:06:21. > :06:28.international standards so we all compare with each other and in
:06:28. > :06:34.household we saw in 2009/10, it grew from 55% of households that
:06:34. > :06:38.might energy-efficiency standards up to 62%. That is a substantial
:06:38. > :06:43.increase and it shows... It is not showing up in the figures. That is
:06:43. > :06:47.my point, you make these changes over the course of a year. They are
:06:47. > :06:57.significant changes and the period in which they start to feed through
:06:57. > :07:02.to your figures as longer. given you are showing a big one off
:07:02. > :07:08.factor, what is the value? To get near the Tigers you must close some
:07:08. > :07:16.call or gas power stations? -- to get near the target. We have seen
:07:16. > :07:21.the figures go down every year apart from 2006, so we are on a
:07:21. > :07:28.trajectory which takes us to 40% reductions that we have said as our
:07:28. > :07:31.target for 2020. And the actions we are taking in forestry and housing,
:07:31. > :07:36.investments in the railway system to get more people to commute by
:07:36. > :07:42.rail, electrification of the rail network... The number of activities
:07:42. > :07:47.are very substantial and will deliver in the long term. Patrick
:07:47. > :07:51.Harvie is with us from the Scottish Greens. What do you make of this?
:07:51. > :07:54.would love to have been sat around the Cabinet table when jaws were
:07:54. > :07:59.dropping as ministers were given revelations that sometimes in
:07:59. > :08:04.Scotland we have cold winters. We have known for a very long time
:08:04. > :08:09.that emissions will go up in cold winters. Let's think back, in 2010
:08:09. > :08:18.the winter was cold right into March and then it started again
:08:18. > :08:23.really early. The December and November was very cold, it is not
:08:23. > :08:28.completely unreasonable. Clearly it has been cold, but they will happen.
:08:28. > :08:36.If we will be ready for that kind of thing and able to achieve carbon
:08:36. > :08:39.reductions in the face of cold winters as well as milder ones, we
:08:39. > :08:42.need a massive investment in the housing stock so people do not have
:08:42. > :08:49.to pay through the nose to the energy companies. Do you not buy
:08:49. > :08:56.the argument that the figures are on track from Stewart Stevenson?
:08:56. > :09:00.Even though it went up to 2010, a big terrible recession in the year
:09:00. > :09:05.before, it still went up but lower than two years before. The a fall
:09:05. > :09:09.in the previous year due to economic circumstances. A rise this
:09:09. > :09:12.year due to inaction, I would say. You may remember a few years ago we
:09:12. > :09:18.had to that against a very controversial budget when the
:09:18. > :09:23.Government after months of pressure - not just from last to put other
:09:23. > :09:27.organisations - refused to commit to the National programme of
:09:27. > :09:31.housing stock improvement. Only in the last month have we seen the
:09:31. > :09:40.Government agreeing to improvement on those lines. We would have been
:09:40. > :09:48.a lot further forward if we saw that earlier. Do you think... When
:09:48. > :09:53.it comes to formulations, a big one off factor with the closure of some
:09:54. > :10:02.other industry factors. When renewable power generation was
:10:02. > :10:09.turning on, that was great because we had hydro before we put up wind
:10:09. > :10:15.turbines. If we strip out these factors, such can't Scotland
:10:15. > :10:20.claimed to be the paragon of this case? Won his ambition and that has
:10:20. > :10:30.been shown not just by the SNP Government but by the All
:10:30. > :10:30.
:10:30. > :10:35.Parliament and the doctor in radical agenda. I am curious about
:10:35. > :10:39.where we are now if we strip the special factors out, does that make
:10:39. > :10:43.a substantial difference or do you agree with Stewart Stevenson when
:10:43. > :10:53.he says that in and taking that into account, we are doing pretty
:10:53. > :10:53.
:10:53. > :10:56.well. A cross the Broad sweep of history, we have had industrial
:10:56. > :11:00.swings and social consequences and problems, it has not been the
:11:00. > :11:03.result of government policy on climate change. The opportunity
:11:04. > :11:09.that climate change gave us was to accelerate the reduction through
:11:09. > :11:14.progressive measures that will benefit a sustainable economy as
:11:14. > :11:20.well as a fair society. That is not what we have seen. You want a
:11:20. > :11:23.further programme of action but this goal of over 40% reductions by
:11:23. > :11:29.2020, do you think that can be achieved without taking the kind of
:11:29. > :11:34.further action that you want? cannot be found without taking
:11:34. > :11:37.radical action but it can be achieved with the UK Climate Change
:11:37. > :11:41.Committee and the Advisory Committee for both governments,
:11:41. > :11:44.things that can be achieved. But at present you do not think it will
:11:44. > :11:52.get there? To steady as she goes is not the way to achieve this
:11:52. > :11:56.transformation. You talk about renewables, we love to see
:11:56. > :12:01.increases in those but that is to provide energy, it doesn't in
:12:01. > :12:06.itself cut emissions. Burning less fossil fuels cut emissions and
:12:06. > :12:09.Winnie the renewable energy to replace that. Stewart Stevenson
:12:10. > :12:14.accepted we see an increase in gas burning and his government is
:12:14. > :12:18.committed to supporting another 50 years of oil and gas extraction.
:12:18. > :12:28.They want to squeeze out every last drop of fossil fuels and we need to
:12:28. > :12:32.shift away from them, not just at Many campaigners were anticipating
:12:32. > :12:37.a decision on gay marriage from the Government. The decision turned out
:12:37. > :12:44.to be not to make one. A Cabinet committee is to study the details
:12:44. > :12:51.but is that the real reason for the delay?
:12:51. > :12:55.For gay men and lesbians in the road to a quality has been a long
:12:55. > :13:03.one. A series of changes in the law and the evolution of public opinion
:13:03. > :13:09.for means a quality has never been closer. Against this, for supposed
:13:09. > :13:14.to his -- supporters of same 6th marriage, waiting for a Cabinet
:13:14. > :13:22.decision may seem inconsequential. But some were genuinely
:13:22. > :13:29.disappointed there was no decision today. This couple live in Scotland
:13:29. > :13:33.but got married in South Africa. The message that everybody was
:13:33. > :13:40.getting, the great interest that has been displayed through today
:13:40. > :13:45.and yesterday, was we would have an announcement. We have been getting
:13:45. > :13:53.these hints, we have an announcement in the early spring,
:13:53. > :14:01.and yet again it has not happened. Personally, my message to the SNP
:14:01. > :14:06.is they should hate to lose votes. Similarly for those for and against
:14:06. > :14:09.gay marriage. That allegation of indecision is denied by the
:14:09. > :14:16.Government would to give a clear indication of its thinking when it
:14:16. > :14:22.opened a consultation last year. Then it said it thinks same-sex
:14:22. > :14:30.marriage should be introduced. The bulk of F MPs support the bulk of
:14:30. > :14:34.gay marriage but some have reservations. -- SNPs. They want
:14:34. > :14:39.safeguards to make sure no faith group is forced to carry out same-
:14:39. > :14:48.sex marriages. It is one of the assurances that has been given that
:14:48. > :14:53.churches will be not forced to give same-sex marriages for --. If they
:14:53. > :14:57.are looking at that in more detail, that is good news. 77,000 responded
:14:57. > :15:02.to the Government has no consultation and critics questioned
:15:02. > :15:06.polls which appear to show a majority of the public support in
:15:06. > :15:09.same-sex marriage. Yesterday, the Catholic Church called for a
:15:09. > :15:14.referendum. Today the Government made it 100% clear that would not
:15:14. > :15:18.be happening. Now there could be called a decisive government.
:15:18. > :15:22.Political opponents do not see today's actions that way.
:15:22. > :15:26.Government is about taking hard decisions. It has been clear in
:15:26. > :15:30.this debate there are strong views on both sides. There is public
:15:30. > :15:35.interest in the decision. It comes down to ministers and the Cabinet
:15:35. > :15:39.to get round the table and discuss the issues. They then need to
:15:39. > :15:45.fulfil the principles. At the Cabinet, or that test, seems to
:15:45. > :15:49.have failed. The problem for the Government is that some were
:15:49. > :15:54.expecting a decision today. The risk is the delay may be perceived
:15:54. > :15:58.by critics have a sign of weakness or indecision. Same-sex marriage is
:15:58. > :16:08.an issue with little room for compromise. When that decision
:16:08. > :16:12.finally comes, campaigners are bound to be angry or upset. We did
:16:12. > :16:17.ask to speak to Nicola Sturgeon, the minister chairing the committee,
:16:17. > :16:20.that she was not available. We are joined by the deputy editor of the
:16:20. > :16:27.Scotsman, Peter MacMahon and Magnus Linklater of The Times. Magnus,
:16:27. > :16:32.what do you think is going on? like the BBC report earlier that
:16:32. > :16:36.said the SNP government was suffering from pre-wedding nerves.
:16:36. > :16:41.It is not surprising they are hesitating because they are between
:16:41. > :16:46.a rock and a hard place. On the one hand, if they go ahead, they will
:16:46. > :16:53.run into the mighty opposition of the Catholic Church. If they do not,
:16:53. > :16:59.they run into the opposition to... A growing body of public opinion.
:16:59. > :17:04.Do you think they have specific issues? The Lord Advocate is going
:17:04. > :17:08.to get involved. Do you think there are legal issues they are trying to
:17:08. > :17:14.sort out? I think there are. They are is the threat if you allow a
:17:14. > :17:19.sum up churches or groups and opt out clause, if it were, but you are
:17:19. > :17:24.not forcing them to approve gay marriages in churches, that might
:17:24. > :17:30.be open to challenge under the European Convention of Human Rights.
:17:30. > :17:36.To be honest, I think that is quite a remote possibility. Hideout if
:17:36. > :17:43.this Cabinet committee is going to come up in the end width opposition.
:17:43. > :17:49.I doubt if this Cabinet. I think they will go ahead. Peter, what do
:17:49. > :17:56.you think? I think there is some politics involved. Magners is right.
:17:56. > :18:00.The Catholic Church is very powerful. The SNP are not the first
:18:00. > :18:07.group, the first politicians, in Scotland to have run across the
:18:07. > :18:12.Catholic Church and incurred the wrath. It happened to Labour over
:18:12. > :18:16.abortion. There is a reluctance to be seen in conflict with a major
:18:16. > :18:21.church which has a lot of people following it. If they are going to
:18:21. > :18:26.come out in favour, it does not make a difference? No. That is why
:18:26. > :18:31.a of the charges of this Government not being decisive is important.
:18:31. > :18:38.Nicola Sturgeon is at the heart of this. She is normally decisive.
:18:38. > :18:41.Health issues, you have seen her out and about getting involved. If
:18:41. > :18:46.you look at the consultation document, the issues they are
:18:46. > :18:52.supposedly looking at now in this committee were raised right at the
:18:52. > :18:56.beginning of last September in the consultation document, whether or
:18:56. > :19:00.not churches and ministers and priests would be forced to marry
:19:00. > :19:05.people of the same sex if they did not want to. They have known about
:19:05. > :19:09.this issue for a long time. If this is what is being looked at,
:19:09. > :19:16.including by the Lord Advocate, it is surprising if they are doing it
:19:16. > :19:21.now. Magners, -- Magners, what David Cameron is proposing for
:19:21. > :19:25.England, you have gay marriage but only in register offices, not in
:19:25. > :19:29.church is, does that get round it? People might have strong views on
:19:29. > :19:33.that but do they get round the legal problems? It might go round
:19:33. > :19:40.the legal problems but I doubt it will get round the moral problem.
:19:40. > :19:43.This is what the issue is. There is a strong body of opinion. It is a
:19:43. > :19:49.logical progression from civil partnerships to having full
:19:49. > :19:53.marriage in church. What you have just described is a kind of halfway
:19:53. > :19:59.house. I doubt that is going to satisfy anyone, certainly not those
:19:59. > :20:04.who are campaigning for gay marriage in church. The other
:20:04. > :20:13.problem, Peter, is presumably the legal framework governing it this
:20:13. > :20:20.stuff is not devolved? So um of it is not. That equality legislation
:20:20. > :20:26.is not. -- some of it is not. Some argue there could be legal
:20:26. > :20:30.challenge there. Again, you have got the Lord Advocate and other
:20:30. > :20:37.senior legal officers who advised the Scottish government, people are
:20:37. > :20:43.campaigning on this, and they say this is not going to be a big
:20:43. > :20:47.problem. It is more, surely, from the SNP point of view, they talk
:20:47. > :20:53.about building a new Scotland, a more tolerant and Liberal Scotland,
:20:53. > :20:58.it seems to me to get into the legal litigation is to lose the
:20:59. > :21:03.argument for a bit. The argument is about what Scotland do they want to
:21:03. > :21:09.build? That is why it is strange the SNP have taken this attitude.
:21:09. > :21:18.It is this strange attitude I am getting at. I am raising the point
:21:18. > :21:23.of evolution -- devolution. They would have to say there was
:21:23. > :21:26.changing to legislation and they could say they will introduce it
:21:27. > :21:32.once at the British Government makes a legal changes. Would that
:21:32. > :21:39.not sound week for a SNP government which is committed to a Scotland
:21:39. > :21:42.which makes up its own decisions? The risk of this delaying tactic is
:21:42. > :21:48.it plays into the hands of those who are already accusing Alex
:21:48. > :21:53.Salmond of running scared of a number of issues like NATO, euro,
:21:53. > :21:57.or the various problems associated with independence, here is another
:21:57. > :22:02.one within his competence to introduce and he seems to be
:22:02. > :22:08.backing away. That is what the problem is. We have to leave it
:22:08. > :22:13.there. Thank you. A quick look at the papers. Starting with the
:22:13. > :22:23.Scotsman. They are talking about the SNP and same-sex marriage and
:22:23. > :22:26.