0:00:05 > 0:00:10come to the family centres how a Tonight on Newsnight: if you are
0:00:11 > 0:00:14married, retired or live in Orkney, congratulations. You are blessed
0:00:14 > 0:00:22with happiness according to government figures. Is there any
0:00:22 > 0:00:26point in this new happiness in the exquisite -- happiness index?
0:00:26 > 0:00:30Scott and apparently contain some of the happiest places in the UK,
0:00:30 > 0:00:39the Western Isles, and one of the most unhappy, North Ayrshire. That
0:00:39 > 0:00:42is according to the National Well- Being Survey. How useful the
0:00:42 > 0:00:52indicator of those? Do they tell us anything about these communities or
0:00:52 > 0:01:04
0:01:04 > 0:01:10had to make them better? Hello. My name is a Jolly. Spelt
0:01:10 > 0:01:18morbid. What sort of Christmas have you had? Was Santo good to you? Is
0:01:18 > 0:01:23your house bulging with 12 year old moulds and Swiss watches? I got a
0:01:23 > 0:01:27sock. There is this a true reflection of our happy souls?
0:01:27 > 0:01:34could be people that this man represents be among the happiest of
0:01:34 > 0:01:39the UK? The statistics have been gathered to gauge our well-being in
0:01:39 > 0:01:45an effort to produce an alternative measure of national performance to
0:01:45 > 0:01:49Gross Domestic Product. According to the results, people in Orkney,
0:01:49 > 0:01:54Shetland and the Western Isles are the happiest in the whole of the UK.
0:01:54 > 0:02:00When asked what their levels of happiness where, over 80% said they
0:02:00 > 0:02:04felt at least seven out of 10 on the happiness scale, a feeling
0:02:04 > 0:02:09shared on the streets of this town today. To date it is the weather
0:02:09 > 0:02:14without a shadow of the doubt -- today it is the weather without a
0:02:14 > 0:02:18shadow of their dad. Happiness is created by community, the fat you
0:02:18 > 0:02:22can still walk up and down the street and feel as though you
0:02:22 > 0:02:27belong in the place. One of the best things about Orkney is that it
0:02:27 > 0:02:31is a safe place to live. It has not got the best weather but the people
0:02:31 > 0:02:37are marvellous. Look at it, on a bonny day like this, it is a
0:02:37 > 0:02:44beautiful place to be. The folk are relax, pretty cheery most of the
0:02:44 > 0:02:48times. It takes a lot to get them down. This is North Ayrshire.
0:02:48 > 0:02:51According to the statistics, this area appears to have some of the UN
0:02:51 > 0:02:57happiest people in the UK. People were asked how happy they felt the
0:02:57 > 0:03:02day before they took the survey. 34% of people living here said they
0:03:02 > 0:03:07felt low or very low levels of happiness. In addition 31% of
0:03:07 > 0:03:13people said they felt low or very low levels of life satisfaction.
0:03:13 > 0:03:19Almost 26% of people living here said they fellow or very low levels
0:03:19 > 0:03:25of worthwhile us. -- said they felt low. Do people here recognise
0:03:25 > 0:03:34themselves? Possible a right, yes. Our you happy? We AIM, the sun is
0:03:34 > 0:03:40shining. I am happy. -- yes. What makes you happy? The fact that you
0:03:40 > 0:03:43can get money to live and do things with your little ones and there are
0:03:44 > 0:03:52lots of things to do when the weather is nice. One makes you
0:03:52 > 0:03:57happy? I am an easy-going person. People that live in north Cheshire
0:03:57 > 0:04:02are among the least happy in the UK. What do you make of that? I do not
0:04:03 > 0:04:08think that is true -- North Ayrshire. I have lived here most of
0:04:08 > 0:04:14my life. My parents are still here. Most of the people I know are quite
0:04:14 > 0:04:19happy. Why you happy? Yes. Tel me what makes you happy. Being able to
0:04:19 > 0:04:26walk about the streets and not getting help to -- hurt. A you
0:04:26 > 0:04:31happy? Very happy. What makes you happy? To us being here. It is very
0:04:31 > 0:04:35difficult to think of a reason. Having your grandchildren with us.
0:04:35 > 0:04:41Lots to do. A as a general trend, people who are married have a job
0:04:41 > 0:04:44and their own house tend to be happiest. People who live in built
0:04:44 > 0:04:48up or former industrial areas tend to be less happy than people in
0:04:48 > 0:04:53rural areas. While wealth does not necessarily make us happy, people
0:04:53 > 0:04:58say that the time of their lives when they were happiest was either
0:04:58 > 0:05:05when they were a teenager or when they reached retirement age. Are
0:05:05 > 0:05:12you happy? We AIM. One makes you happy? They everything. Because we
0:05:12 > 0:05:17can do what we want. I think we are happy because we are young and can
0:05:17 > 0:05:21do what we want. The data collected will now be used by the Treasury to
0:05:21 > 0:05:28assess the value of public expenditure. Will the UK government
0:05:28 > 0:05:33used happiness as and indicator? That has certainly made some people
0:05:33 > 0:05:36smile. I think it is a joke in the case of this government because
0:05:36 > 0:05:40they have created a double-dip recession and are creating problems
0:05:41 > 0:05:45for young people especially which will give us a great deal of social
0:05:45 > 0:05:51unhappiness because we are at the receiving end of the policies. The
0:05:51 > 0:05:56marriage, babies, happy events. Will our happiness and what makes
0:05:57 > 0:06:01us anxious or feel valued really be reflected when it comes to making a
0:06:01 > 0:06:07hard political choices or will we just have to grin and bear it?
0:06:07 > 0:06:10I am joined from New Hampshire by David Blanchflower and Juliet
0:06:10 > 0:06:15Michaelson senior researcher at the Centre for Well-being at the New
0:06:15 > 0:06:20Economics Foundation. And I enjoyed in the studio by Phil Hanlon,
0:06:20 > 0:06:23professor of public health at Glasgow University. Hundreds of
0:06:23 > 0:06:30years of the philosophy and it turns out the answer is get married,
0:06:30 > 0:06:34moved to the Hebrides and retire. If you are asking simple questions
0:06:34 > 0:06:42like that to assess subjective well-being of, these findings have
0:06:42 > 0:06:46been replicated all over Britain, all over the world. We know that
0:06:46 > 0:06:50bit. Why they have started asking these questions is that looking at
0:06:50 > 0:06:54the period after the Second World War national wealth and national
0:06:55 > 0:06:59happiness seemed to track each other. Europe, North America,
0:06:59 > 0:07:04Australasia. In the 70s, we seemed to continue to get wealthier, but
0:07:04 > 0:07:12we stopped reporting ourselves to be happier. People are dissatisfied
0:07:12 > 0:07:16with single measures. They are dissatisfied with GNP, mortality.
0:07:16 > 0:07:21If this is used to ask a good questions and it is used as a
0:07:21 > 0:07:26basket of indicators, that could be useful. If it is used simplistic me
0:07:26 > 0:07:30to compare one area with another... The happiest areas of others are
0:07:30 > 0:07:37those which are furthest away from the parliament in Edinburgh. That
0:07:37 > 0:07:42should warn us for any spurious associations. By definition, if we
0:07:42 > 0:07:46all moved there, we would get very unhappy very quickly. Good
0:07:46 > 0:07:51questions and part of a wider basket could be used far. What do
0:07:51 > 0:07:57you think the intention is, Juliet Michaelson? As a snapshot of people
0:07:57 > 0:08:02asked on Monday, but other than as a gimmick, is there any usefulness
0:08:02 > 0:08:06in this? I think so. When David Cameron announced this programme in
0:08:06 > 0:08:10November, 2010, he said that finding out what really improve
0:08:10 > 0:08:15people's lives and acting on it is the real business of government. I
0:08:15 > 0:08:18agree with him on that. These measures have been shown by a whole
0:08:18 > 0:08:21range of different scientific evidence to be robust ways of
0:08:21 > 0:08:25getting an overall assessment of what makes people's lives go well.
0:08:25 > 0:08:29But ultimately is what we elect our governments to do. The problem I
0:08:29 > 0:08:34think is that government policy- making has become too dominated by
0:08:34 > 0:08:38economic measures which while useful are only a means to an end.
0:08:38 > 0:08:42We want a good economy to produce good lives. But I think policy-
0:08:42 > 0:08:52making has got sidetracked through those very narrow blinkers and what
0:08:52 > 0:08:53
0:08:53 > 0:08:57these measures allow us to do is I'm at a loss to know how it would
0:08:57 > 0:09:02guide you in any policy on anything, if you look at these figures?
0:09:02 > 0:09:10is something in that. What's been released are the headlines of this
0:09:10 > 0:09:20new data. What people like me are waiting to get our hands are the
0:09:20 > 0:09:23
0:09:23 > 0:09:26data step from people across the UK. Then we can look at trends over
0:09:26 > 0:09:31time. Once we start building up that rich analysis and time-trend
0:09:31 > 0:09:38data, we will be able to do a lot more that will be of use to
0:09:38 > 0:09:43policymakers. You have been involved in doing some work in this
0:09:43 > 0:09:48area with international studies. Are you convinced of the merits of
0:09:48 > 0:09:56these things? I'm convinced it is worth measuring happiness. The big
0:09:56 > 0:10:00new branch of economic and it makes a lot of sense to go out and ask
0:10:00 > 0:10:03people what makes them happy. Basically, almost everything in
0:10:03 > 0:10:09these surveys that came out today we already knew. It is not as if
0:10:09 > 0:10:13this is new stuff. We knew about marriage. This is a start of
0:10:13 > 0:10:17actually observing what makes people feel good. One of the big
0:10:17 > 0:10:25results that's come from it is unemployment appears to make people
0:10:25 > 0:10:28unhappy. It looks that unemployment is more important to people than
0:10:28 > 0:10:33inflation. We are a long way away from making policy recommendations.
0:10:33 > 0:10:39These are a set of facts, confirmed things that we already know. This
0:10:39 > 0:10:44is very early days. I don't think there are many policy prescriptions
0:10:44 > 0:10:54sitting on the MPC who would say anything that came out today would
0:10:54 > 0:10:55
0:10:55 > 0:11:05tell you anything different than it did a day ago. It is good idea to
0:11:05 > 0:11:08
0:11:09 > 0:11:15ask people. Isn't part of the problem - you mentioned unemploment.
0:11:15 > 0:11:24Few people would -- unemployment. Few people would argue that being
0:11:24 > 0:11:28unemployed would make you happy. Obviously, one of the great
0:11:28 > 0:11:33strengths of these data - I'm a wage person - one of the fact about
0:11:33 > 0:11:37wage data, if you look at wages across all countries you get the
0:11:37 > 0:11:41same patterns. You get the same basic patterns. Married people are
0:11:41 > 0:11:46happier than single people. We can look at things through time. So you
0:11:46 > 0:11:51can get to the causation. People follow people and say, "Were you
0:11:51 > 0:11:56happy today?" And they can look at what happens as they get married
0:11:56 > 0:12:02and later. It certainly appears that married people are happier.
0:12:02 > 0:12:08That is a fact. You are right, that still doesn't tell us what we
0:12:08 > 0:12:12should do about policy. There probably is nothing in there that
0:12:13 > 0:12:17is going to tell you much about policy. What it will tell you is
0:12:17 > 0:12:21that money doesn't buy as much happiness as social things and
0:12:21 > 0:12:25health is really important. To make the step of what you do in terms of
0:12:25 > 0:12:33policy I agree with the professor, unclear at this moment. We are a
0:12:33 > 0:12:37long way from knowing that. This idea that over time, let's take the
0:12:37 > 0:12:42marriage question, well, things could happen to married couples
0:12:42 > 0:12:48over time that could be independent of the fact that they are married?
0:12:48 > 0:12:52I don't see you how get round that? What is very interesting was that a
0:12:52 > 0:12:59lot of this stuff isn't new. There is a broad wealth of evidence that
0:13:00 > 0:13:07this is building on. You track a whole lot of people, thousands of
0:13:07 > 0:13:11people, and you do that over time. That allows you to disentangle the
0:13:11 > 0:13:18effect of getting married from all other things that might be
0:13:18 > 0:13:23happening. Those are the techniques that researchers use to make fairly
0:13:23 > 0:13:27confident claims about causality over time. What is new about this
0:13:27 > 0:13:34data is that it has got political backing behind it. We have had the
0:13:34 > 0:13:43Prime Minister say, "This is important." And that gives it a
0:13:43 > 0:13:48much better chance that decision- makers will start paying attention.
0:13:48 > 0:13:54Those sort of things have perhaps in the biggest picture not been
0:13:54 > 0:13:56given their fullest place in big policy decisions. I think this can
0:13:56 > 0:14:01start asking important questions about the direction we want to go
0:14:01 > 0:14:05over all of the country. Can it? Let's take some of the issues we
0:14:05 > 0:14:10have been talking about. Let's say it is a robust finding that people
0:14:10 > 0:14:14who are married tend to be happier. Does that mean we want to have
0:14:14 > 0:14:19governments encouraging marriage? People - from around the world,
0:14:19 > 0:14:25studies show that people who are religious tend to report themselves
0:14:25 > 0:14:29as happier. Should we have Government roles in promoting
0:14:29 > 0:14:35religion? Promoting marriage and religion is the most problematic
0:14:35 > 0:14:39end of the spectrum. Greater inequality is associated with less
0:14:39 > 0:14:44happiness. Policies that promote greater equality could be justified
0:14:44 > 0:14:48on the basis of some of this data. Equally, having strong social
0:14:48 > 0:14:55networks and relationships make people happier than not having
0:14:55 > 0:15:01those. So when Norman Tebbit says, "Get on your bike" which means
0:15:01 > 0:15:06moving to get a job, you need to balance the economic benefit of
0:15:06 > 0:15:10that with the social affective disbenefits of such a thing. If you
0:15:10 > 0:15:13are saying that these are robust findings, and I think this is the
0:15:13 > 0:15:18beginning of something that could be valuable over time, if that
0:15:18 > 0:15:24proves to be as valuable as it might be, there could be a case for
0:15:24 > 0:15:30saying, "Let's weigh up the economic, the social, the health,
0:15:30 > 0:15:35and use them all in a decision- making nexus." To pin this down,
0:15:35 > 0:15:42you could have economic policymakers saying, "We will
0:15:42 > 0:15:50reject policies or policy X because while it will make Britain richer
0:15:50 > 0:15:54in the sense of it will have good GDP growth, in favour of policy Y,
0:15:55 > 0:16:02which will make us less rich but we will not have the increased
0:16:02 > 0:16:06inequalities that X would have." That is the sort of thing that
0:16:06 > 0:16:16measuring this type of material will help us get in a debate about.
0:16:16 > 0:16:20You were on the Monetary Policy Committee. Let's say Juliet gets
0:16:20 > 0:16:25her data over 30 years and you come up with some interesting results.
0:16:25 > 0:16:29What do you do the next day on the Monetary Policy Committee?
0:16:29 > 0:16:34certainly think that we have - the comments a moment ago about
0:16:34 > 0:16:39relative things mattering are really important. Inequality does
0:16:39 > 0:16:42have effect. The evidence is not clear. I think we do need to care
0:16:42 > 0:16:46about distribution. It's hard at this point to see exactly what you
0:16:46 > 0:16:50do. I took the view from this research that actually the
0:16:50 > 0:16:56Government should understand right now that a 1% increase in
0:16:56 > 0:17:02unemployment is much, much worse than a 1% increase in inflation. We
0:17:02 > 0:17:06know that from happiness research. OK. That tells you about the ways