:00:14. > :00:18.now saying Jordan must come first. Tonight on Newsnight Scotland,
:00:18. > :00:24.reversing the decline as the population is at an all-time high.
:00:24. > :00:28.Why? And the competition to gain
:00:28. > :00:31.political advantage from the Olympics, we will discuss
:00:31. > :00:37.Scolympians, Team GB and Scotland House with Brian Wilson and Pete
:00:37. > :00:41.Wishart. Scotland is growing, long- term population decline has been
:00:41. > :00:45.reversed, and there is a record number of people living here. The
:00:45. > :00:55.fall in the death rate is one factor but immigration is a bigger
:00:55. > :01:00.
:01:00. > :01:09.There is nothing like a sunny day to bring the population eye to the
:01:09. > :01:16.park. It you know there were 5 million people in Scotland in May
:01:16. > :01:23.2011? That is 14,000 more than the previous peak recorded in 1974.
:01:23. > :01:27.That is a rise of almost 200,000 over the last 10 years. In fact,
:01:27. > :01:31.the population has been growing in recent years, but when you look
:01:31. > :01:41.back in the headline figures, the pattern for population change is
:01:41. > :01:43.
:01:43. > :01:47.not quite so straightforward. In the decade from 2001 to 2011, the
:01:47. > :01:52.council areas with the highest increase were Perth and Kinross, up
:01:52. > :02:02.11%, and Edinburgh, are 10%. Inverclyde had the biggest
:02:02. > :02:10.The number of babies being born is greater than the number of people
:02:10. > :02:20.dying. 58,590 berths were recorded in Scotland in 2011, but that
:02:20. > :02:21.
:02:21. > :02:28.number is down. 201 fewer births Into those 9/11, the number of
:02:28. > :02:35.deaths in Scotland dropped to 53,661. At his lowest annual total
:02:35. > :02:42.since registration began in 1855. - - that is. Life expectancy is still
:02:42. > :02:48.lower than many EU countries. Life expectancy has greatly increased
:02:48. > :02:58.over the past three decades. A man born in 1981 could expect to live
:02:58. > :02:58.
:02:58. > :03:04.until he is 69. A boy born today could expect to reach the age of 76.
:03:04. > :03:13.A woman born in 1981 could expect to live until 75, a girl could
:03:13. > :03:21.reach 81 is born today. In the past, the brain drain meant more people
:03:21. > :03:28.left Scotland than mood here. That seems to be no longer the case.
:03:28. > :03:38.43,700 people came to Scotland for the rest of the UK. 40,800 left
:03:38. > :03:38.
:03:38. > :03:45.other parts of Britain. One of the crucial reasons for the increase,
:03:45. > :03:50.for the same period, 42,300 people came here from overseas, whilst
:03:50. > :03:58.16,900 left Scotland to God rot. This figure of 25,400 more people
:03:58. > :04:02.coming to Scotland from overseas is the highest since records began. --
:04:02. > :04:12.left Scotland to go overseas. More birth and death and immigration
:04:12. > :04:15.appear to be responsible. Will these trends continue? I am joined
:04:15. > :04:22.from Edinburgh bride the Registrar General for Scotland, George
:04:22. > :04:27.Mackenzie. I am curious as to why you think, there was a cycle of
:04:27. > :04:35.decline recently, until the late 1990s, has that been reversed? Why
:04:35. > :04:41.has it been? Indeed it has. Until 2002, the population was declining
:04:41. > :04:45.and has been in reverse since then. Migration must be one in reason --
:04:45. > :04:54.one reason. The birth rate has improved but mainly it is people
:04:54. > :04:59.coming to Scotland. When was the turning point? Around 2001, 2002.
:04:59. > :05:02.About 10 years ago. This would have been around the period the Scottish
:05:02. > :05:07.Government was encouraging people to come, because the economy was
:05:07. > :05:10.booming and we needed more people? I think so. Economic factors are
:05:10. > :05:20.very important in stimulating migration so I think there is a
:05:20. > :05:24.link in that. The other thing that puzzles me is that you figures are
:05:24. > :05:29.for to vote than 11. The population has been going up even though the
:05:29. > :05:35.economy nosedived. The financial crash in 2008, the economy going
:05:35. > :05:40.into recession, yet it -- and yet the population is growing. That
:05:40. > :05:45.seems on -- that seem surprising. Yes, the population has not
:05:45. > :05:50.suffered from the recession. Migration has still continue to
:05:50. > :05:56.rise. As your piece pointed out, it has reached record levels. Have you
:05:56. > :05:59.any idea why that is? It is difficult to say. We collect the
:05:59. > :06:07.figures adds to what the numbers are, rather than knowing what the
:06:07. > :06:12.reasons are. Migration is a very complex issue, the reasons for it
:06:12. > :06:18.are only partly understood. Economic factors are important.
:06:18. > :06:28.There is probably a degree of people not moving back quite so
:06:28. > :06:31.
:06:31. > :06:35.quickly. Do you have a breakdown of figures for migration? No, what we
:06:35. > :06:44.do is distinguish between the rest of the UK, picking up migration of
:06:44. > :06:49.that kind, Prime Llanelly through changing healthcare provider. --
:06:49. > :06:56.primarily. People from a outside the UK will depend on the
:06:56. > :07:05.International Passenger Survey. That is carried out on a UK-white
:07:05. > :07:09.level. One conclusion is that while there may be a lot of people buying
:07:09. > :07:13.retirement homes from down south, that is not the only factor. It
:07:13. > :07:22.looks like many of the people who came here, from Poland, the Baltic
:07:22. > :07:30.countries to work, have not gone home. That is entirely correct. The
:07:30. > :07:36.majority of people who are migrating, Ike as well as in, are
:07:37. > :07:46.in the 34 age group. -- 16-34 age group. The vast majority are in
:07:47. > :07:47.
:07:47. > :07:52.that economic we acted each. -- active age. What is it about Perth
:07:52. > :08:00.and Kinross? It is difficult to say. That is where the growth has
:08:00. > :08:05.occurred. Aberdeen, Edinburgh, all showing increases as well. You can
:08:05. > :08:10.understand Edinburgh and Lothians. Perth and Kinross, is that increase
:08:10. > :08:14.people working on the land? I would think in the case of Aberdeenshire,
:08:14. > :08:22.it is Aberdeen City, with Perth and Kinross it is probably Dundee.
:08:22. > :08:31.There is always a pattern of urban centres. They must be a lot of that.
:08:31. > :08:38.Except, I would not think Bundy was included in that area. -- Dundee.
:08:38. > :08:43.Yes but people are commuting. That is why the Lothians are buoyant.
:08:43. > :08:49.One last point, what was really brought home to me by looking at
:08:49. > :08:58.the maps, this rather dramatic present from Aberdeen coming into
:08:58. > :09:04.Central lowlands Scotland, taking in the Borders, of prosperity. The
:09:04. > :09:08.West of Scotland looks like a region in decline. That is probably
:09:08. > :09:13.a generalisation, but certainly difficult Scotland's in the West of
:09:13. > :09:22.Scotland, -- difficult areas in the West of Scotland, Inverclyde had
:09:22. > :09:25.the largest net drop. The City of Glasgow included. They are not in a
:09:25. > :09:29.high-growth areas, but the population is still rising. The
:09:29. > :09:39.ones with decline are the western seaboard. It is the Western Isles,
:09:39. > :09:40.
:09:40. > :09:45.Inverclyde, a Ayrshire. The middle Scotland is showing an increase.
:09:45. > :09:49.Thank you for joining us. You may have been fascinated by the
:09:49. > :09:54.Olympics, but not behind the scene, the politicians in Scotland have
:09:54. > :09:59.been going for gold. They are slagging each other off. The issue
:09:59. > :10:09.is the Scottish Government's attitude to Team GB. Are they being
:10:09. > :10:11.
:10:11. > :10:14.supportive or RB hypocritical He did it, the world record was
:10:14. > :10:20.broken and a fifth medal added to the collection and the nation jump
:10:20. > :10:26.for joy. Sir Chris Hoy's performance was the culmination of
:10:26. > :10:30.an expanding 24 hours for Scottish athletes or Scolympians. Last night
:10:31. > :10:38.Glasgow's Michael Jamieson picked up silver in the 200 metre
:10:38. > :10:42.breaststroke. It is a fantastic silver medal for Great Britain.
:10:42. > :10:48.That was after Lossiemouth's Heather Stanning picked up
:10:48. > :10:53.Britain's first gold of the Games. Today's Aberdeen Tim Baillie won
:10:53. > :11:02.gold in the canoeing slalom as the David Florence also picked up
:11:02. > :11:09.silver in the same event. Now back to that word - Scolympians. No
:11:09. > :11:14.doubt invented in some moment in St Andrews House. It was born when the
:11:14. > :11:20.Scottish government posted these messages of support. Critics seized
:11:20. > :11:24.on it, why wasn't Alex Salmond backing the whole of Team GB? This
:11:24. > :11:30.shows the SNP's complete indifference or even hostility to
:11:30. > :11:37.the London Games, until they could see some opportunity to exploit it
:11:37. > :11:42.for their own tents, behold the new Scotland House in Kamal to promote
:11:42. > :11:50.Scotland for the duration of the Games. Into the frame stepped Pete
:11:50. > :11:52.Wishart, in his blog on Tuesday, he railed against Scotland's Unionist
:11:52. > :11:58.politicians who seem bizarrely to suggest that this show undermine
:11:58. > :12:07.the case for Scottish independence. Brian Wilson, ex-Labour minister,
:12:07. > :12:11.was next. He said, I doubt it Scotland House will be adorned with
:12:11. > :12:16.the great nationalist slogans, Scotland will get zilch from the
:12:16. > :12:23.London Olympics and if London once the Olympics, London should pay for
:12:23. > :12:28.them themselves. He the modern founder of the game's memorably
:12:28. > :12:33.said that it was not about the winning but about taking part. He
:12:33. > :12:36.was not talking about Scottish politics! I'm joined now from
:12:36. > :12:44.Dundee by the SNP MP Pete Wishart and here in the studio by the
:12:44. > :12:49.former Labour Minister Brian Wilson. Brian Wilson, Shona Robison put out
:12:49. > :12:55.a statement about Chris Hoy tonight which in that was very modern
:12:55. > :13:00.unreasonable I thought. What is your gripe with the SNP about?
:13:00. > :13:08.not have any great. I am delighted they welcomed it. What I pointed
:13:08. > :13:11.out in that article was for eight Cheers the denigrated the London
:13:11. > :13:18.Olympics and a particularly Pete Wishart at every opportunity sniped
:13:18. > :13:23.at it. These were quotes that Scotland would get zilch from the
:13:23. > :13:31.Olympics and London should pay for it. Scotland was not interested in
:13:31. > :13:35.Team GB, on and on. What I said was how much I welcomed the conversion
:13:36. > :13:40.of a Shona Robison saying what a great opportunity the Olympics were
:13:40. > :13:44.for Scotland. The problem is, the rest of Scotland realise that eight
:13:44. > :13:50.years ago. Wartime she is spent preparing for the opportunity and
:13:50. > :13:55.Scotland would get more out of it. More time should have been spent.
:13:55. > :14:00.Pete Wishart. Utter rubbish from Brian Wilson as usual. I wrote
:14:00. > :14:05.months ago how much we were looking forward to the Olympics and how we
:14:05. > :14:13.would support Team GB. Team GB is as much our team as anyone from
:14:13. > :14:20.England. Everyone is Scotland this evening, you are hanging on to
:14:20. > :14:24.every event and Cheam on Chris Hoy as I was. People will be appalled,
:14:24. > :14:29.that politicians like Brian Wilson and others, are trying to
:14:29. > :14:34.politicise the Olympics and high jacket for a Unionist cause. Go
:14:34. > :14:39.away and let us enjoy the Olympics without trying to criticise them
:14:39. > :14:45.and make petty political nit- picking comments. What is your
:14:45. > :14:49.specific point? He does not dispute you welcome the Scottish Olympians
:14:49. > :14:55.whelk -- winning medals. His point was to have spent eight years
:14:55. > :14:59.running it down and saying Scotland will get zilch from that. I was
:14:59. > :15:05.looking for an apology from Brian Wilson about how he has tried to
:15:05. > :15:10.pooh comments out of context. This zilch one refers to contracts.
:15:10. > :15:15.Maybe I was wrong, may be issued a been next to zilch. We got one
:15:15. > :15:19.contract out of 25. Had I not pick this up years ago when we saw what
:15:19. > :15:24.was happening and looked ahead the contracts were being distributed
:15:24. > :15:30.throughout the UK, we said there should be a greater equity of these
:15:30. > :15:34.contracts and we probably secured a few more contracts for Scotland. It
:15:34. > :15:40.is called holding a government to scrutiny and standing up for your
:15:40. > :15:44.constituents. It is what an MP does and I make no excuses for saying
:15:44. > :15:53.scholar should get the best out of these contracts. A what about the
:15:53. > :15:59.apology end? I think the guilty man protest too much. What matters was
:15:59. > :16:04.over eight years. I am much more interested in... Hang on, he makes
:16:04. > :16:09.a reasonable point. If he was talking specifically about
:16:10. > :16:15.contracts, that is a different issue from denigrating the Olympics.
:16:15. > :16:20.This is all chapter and verse. knows this was about contracts.
:16:20. > :16:27.Every one of these is chapter and verse. Scotland is not interested
:16:27. > :16:31.in Team GB. In future, maybe they will be more circumspect and not
:16:31. > :16:34.trying to rubbish anything just because it is associated with
:16:34. > :16:38.London and they think they are divisive pickings to be made which
:16:38. > :16:43.is what they've done for eight years. Now they have got Scotland
:16:43. > :16:48.House and could have had it in Dover House and saved us money.
:16:48. > :16:52.again, the specific point Pete Wishart is making is that it is
:16:52. > :16:57.reasonable to challenge things like contracts and say we would like
:16:57. > :17:05.more of economic benefits of the London Olympics to come to Scotland.
:17:05. > :17:12.That is not running down the Olympic Games. Short of ladling out
:17:12. > :17:15.each one of these quotes, he was on line the other day denying them
:17:15. > :17:19.altogether. One journalist said if he had not said these things, he
:17:19. > :17:29.and Hansard were part of the conspiracy as well. It is too late
:17:29. > :17:32.to rebut or withdraw the things he said. It is true though, that as
:17:32. > :17:37.recently as 2005 your colleagues were banging on about having a
:17:37. > :17:45.separate Scottish an Olympic team. A we wanted a separate scene. We
:17:45. > :17:50.want to compete as an independent nation. -- said it team. Sorry,
:17:50. > :17:54.they seem to be arguing for a separate Olympics team even while
:17:54. > :17:59.Scott was part of the United Kingdom. That would have been
:17:59. > :18:01.fantastic but according to the rules of the Olympics it was not
:18:01. > :18:09.possible. We would like an independent team for the next
:18:09. > :18:19.Olympics. Would you like to have a separate Scottish team at the
:18:19. > :18:23.
:18:23. > :18:27.Olympics? Soy, Brian Wilson. would not for obvious reasons. The
:18:27. > :18:36.nonsense about having a separate Scottish team within the United
:18:36. > :18:39.Kingdom was always a kind of ploy. I do not think that the Olympics in
:18:39. > :18:45.two or 10 years' time more make any difference to the Scottish
:18:45. > :18:51.political scene. I do not think it will figure largely. It is a point
:18:51. > :18:56.that this is we get the benefit of something bigger. Have the Scottish
:18:57. > :19:00.team are members of sporting teams with people from other parts of the
:19:00. > :19:08.United Kingdom. Are we going to deny our sports men and women the
:19:08. > :19:12.opportunity to participate if we had a separate Scottish team?
:19:12. > :19:17.two years' time, the Scottish athletes will come together for the
:19:17. > :19:24.Commonwealth Games and there will be new partnerships for that.
:19:24. > :19:29.Scottish assets will be equally as committed to Team Scotland as they
:19:29. > :19:34.were to Team GB. -- Scottish athletes. It will more than their
:19:34. > :19:38.weight when it comes to Team GB and some individual successes have been
:19:38. > :19:42.remarkable. When they come together for the Commonwealth Games, they
:19:42. > :19:51.will do our nation proud and will fly the flag with passion and
:19:51. > :19:56.commitment. Can I just read the quote from your block -- you're
:19:56. > :19:59.blog. Britishness is one of our many identities and one that will
:20:00. > :20:07.be forever cherished in an independent Scotland. What does
:20:07. > :20:13.that mean? People can be British and continued to be British.
:20:13. > :20:20.even when we're independent? Were a share and Ireland. There will be
:20:20. > :20:26.cross-border institutions. -- we year and Ireland. We will not deny
:20:26. > :20:30.people the idea of being British, that is a nonsense. So you can be
:20:30. > :20:35.independent and more British than you want to be. Everyone knows that
:20:35. > :20:40.is rubbish. Read the opinion polls, people do not want to break-up of
:20:40. > :20:46.Britain into separate states. The Olympic remind us that every
:20:46. > :20:50.country in the world has a nation made up of states. Thank you both
:20:50. > :20:58.very much indeed. Time for a very quick look at the front pages.
:20:58. > :21:07.There is none without Chris Hoy on the front. There is the Scotsman.