0:00:12 > 0:00:16a process. But it is a 20 year job. As former Prime Minister Gordon
0:00:16 > 0:00:21Brown at ways into the devolution or independent argument, there
0:00:21 > 0:00:26seems to be a variety of opinions within Scottish Labour. Does that
0:00:26 > 0:00:33enhance or diminish the contribution of Scottish Labour to
0:00:33 > 0:00:39the question? Today Gordon Brown returned to the
0:00:39 > 0:00:46bread and butter of Scottish politics. He is for more devolution
0:00:46 > 0:00:49but against independence and fiscal autonomy.
0:00:49 > 0:00:57First we examine some more controversial additions to their
0:00:57 > 0:01:02national wisdom on the subject. -- the national wisdom.
0:01:02 > 0:01:07In the past couple of days division in the Scottish Labour Party over
0:01:07 > 0:01:12the independence debate has hit the headlines. The former First
0:01:12 > 0:01:18Minister put the case for a second question on that the referendum.
0:01:18 > 0:01:22What do we do then, he said? We have lost control of her own
0:01:22 > 0:01:32destiny and have ceded it to Westminster.
0:01:32 > 0:01:53
0:01:53 > 0:01:57Neil Finley reportedly ridiculed Back in June at the launch of a
0:01:57 > 0:02:04better together the party line from the Scottish Labour leadership
0:02:04 > 0:02:12seemed clear. They want a straight yes or no question.
0:02:12 > 0:02:15We need to settle the big question. Do you want to stay in the UK or
0:02:15 > 0:02:20not? Make that decision then we will have that the consequence of
0:02:20 > 0:02:25that. What of Labour voters think? Are they what the leadership? It
0:02:25 > 0:02:28seems to depend on what questions they are asked.
0:02:28 > 0:02:38At if they are faced with a question when they are asked should
0:02:38 > 0:02:43there be a straight choice or a third option, in truth a majority
0:02:43 > 0:02:49of Labour voters look as though the art in favour of a clear cut single
0:02:49 > 0:02:59question. However if we do not use that, if we just ask what should be
0:02:59 > 0:03:02
0:03:02 > 0:03:09on the ballot paper, then we discover that a majority of Labour
0:03:09 > 0:03:13voters are in favour of the big two questions. The Labour party is
0:03:13 > 0:03:19having some success in the use that particular rhetoric of a clear cut
0:03:19 > 0:03:25question. But it cannot be suggested that that support is
0:03:25 > 0:03:30firmly based. Strip away the rhetoric and it looks as though
0:03:30 > 0:03:35Labour voters are as keen on two questions as everybody else.
0:03:35 > 0:03:39There may be political advantage for Labour and its allies, but if
0:03:39 > 0:03:43Labour and their Unionist allies use their clout at Westminster to
0:03:43 > 0:03:47have a question about more devolution excluded, they might
0:03:47 > 0:03:53have explaining to do to some of the people who would normally
0:03:53 > 0:03:57support them up at the ballot box. Former Prime Minister Gordon Brown
0:03:57 > 0:04:06spoke to date at the Edinburgh Book Festival. He is against
0:04:06 > 0:04:12independence, but his argument concluded that Scotland with
0:04:12 > 0:04:15increased fiscal autonomy would have to increase taxes. He added
0:04:15 > 0:04:20the problems we face are as a result of problems within the UK
0:04:20 > 0:04:24rather than inequalities between Scotland and England.
0:04:24 > 0:04:30The inequalities within Scott and are far greater than they should be.
0:04:30 > 0:04:34The inequalities that an end and are far greater than they should be.
0:04:34 > 0:04:38I cannot defend the inequalities that exist within England and
0:04:38 > 0:04:42Scotland. I have always believed we should do more about that. The
0:04:42 > 0:04:48issue is whether Scott and breaks with England. The issue then is
0:04:48 > 0:04:52whether the union has served Scotland or England feel it all
0:04:52 > 0:04:58well. I am say to you that we have established in Scotland and in
0:04:58 > 0:05:02England the right to a number of social provisions, the rate to
0:05:02 > 0:05:06economic support and help, sort of Scotland was doing well and in them
0:05:06 > 0:05:10was doing badly, we would be helping English regions in
0:05:10 > 0:05:16difficulty. The sharing of resources is to the benefit of all
0:05:16 > 0:05:19of us. If you look to the future, if you go anywhere in the world,
0:05:19 > 0:05:22states existing side by side with other states will have to find a
0:05:22 > 0:05:27way of living together, of narrowing their differences between
0:05:28 > 0:05:32them. I would suggest that we have got a model of how that may be done
0:05:32 > 0:05:39for the future. It is not perfect. We have got the problem of a
0:05:39 > 0:05:44government that some people do not want. I say to you that this model
0:05:44 > 0:05:49will be the model that people will look at windy a looking at economic
0:05:49 > 0:05:56union in Africa, in Asia. We have managed to narrow these differences
0:05:56 > 0:06:00in such a dramatic we compared with rest of the world. Let us not
0:06:00 > 0:06:03forget that that has happened. Let us not forget that we have been
0:06:03 > 0:06:09able to share resources the way that no other union has managed to
0:06:09 > 0:06:14do. Not the union, not the United States of America, not any other
0:06:14 > 0:06:19country on been in that I can think of. It is based on a progressive
0:06:19 > 0:06:24idea that everybody should have the same economic, social, and
0:06:24 > 0:06:27political right. You cannot have a Social Union, if you break up the
0:06:27 > 0:06:37very essence of their existing union, which is the sharing of
0:06:37 > 0:06:44resources. If you agree that you are going to have an English
0:06:44 > 0:06:47currency and be part of NATO, somehow you are softening the blow
0:06:47 > 0:06:53and there is nothing at issue when you come to independence. If you
0:06:53 > 0:07:01break at the fiscal union, the sharing of resources across the
0:07:01 > 0:07:07United Kingdom, then it is clear that he will have to reduce public
0:07:07 > 0:07:11expenditure massively, or you'll have to tax Scottish people more.
0:07:11 > 0:07:14There is no escape from a target that if you have fiscal autonomy,
0:07:14 > 0:07:18in other words all the money that you raised in Scotland is that all
0:07:18 > 0:07:22the money that you have to spend on services in Scotland, given that
0:07:22 > 0:07:25there is a sharing of resources, there is no escape from the fact
0:07:25 > 0:07:32that you what the same level of services in Scotland, you will have
0:07:32 > 0:07:42to raise taxes in Scotland. People who are putting that proposition of
0:07:42 > 0:07:46
0:07:46 > 0:07:50fiscal autonomy, the consequences are that you stop sharing the
0:07:50 > 0:07:54resources of the United Kingdom and therefore you cannot in times of
0:07:54 > 0:07:59trouble to agree someone who is richer or who has resources that
0:07:59 > 0:08:05you do not, and ask for help. You cannot maintain their economic,
0:08:06 > 0:08:10political, and social rights that exists for every UK citizen. I
0:08:10 > 0:08:15worry about fiscal autonomy which is now being proposed as the next
0:08:15 > 0:08:20stage of evolution. Fiscal autonomy means more taxes in Scotland, but
0:08:20 > 0:08:29not in a progressive way. It is simply to fill a gap that is left
0:08:29 > 0:08:36because we have not been sharing resources in the United Kingdom. If
0:08:37 > 0:08:44people look at this dangers in what is called Maxie devolution, we lose
0:08:44 > 0:08:49something that is unique. Until people look at that they might feel
0:08:49 > 0:08:53at any additional form of devolution is good devolution. I
0:08:54 > 0:09:03think we have to be careful about that. I favour more devolution, but
0:09:04 > 0:09:07
0:09:07 > 0:09:12I do not favour fiscal autonomy. I am joined now by Henry McLeish.
0:09:12 > 0:09:16And I am also joined by commentator who will be at their Edinburgh Book
0:09:16 > 0:09:20Festival in a fortnight. Henry McLeish, you were at the
0:09:20 > 0:09:24lecture today by Gordon Brown. He said that a new argument was needed
0:09:24 > 0:09:30by those in favour of devolution. He said that argument should be
0:09:30 > 0:09:35based on sharing resources across the United Kingdom. In their end he
0:09:35 > 0:09:45delivered a traditional argument. We are too poor. I was quite
0:09:45 > 0:09:49impressed by the lecture. If you talk about full fiscal autonomy
0:09:49 > 0:09:53that means something different than the more fiscal responsibility. If
0:09:53 > 0:10:02you take the sharp edge of that, we get a cheque from Westminster for
0:10:02 > 0:10:0530 billion, but do we spend it all? Between the various terms, to be
0:10:05 > 0:10:13fair to Gordon Brown, but was only one part of what I thought was a
0:10:13 > 0:10:19good speech. It set out ideas for the union. He did say we have got
0:10:19 > 0:10:27to look to the future, not to the past. He wanted to talk about
0:10:27 > 0:10:34principles. Far too often in this debate may have become too abstract.
0:10:34 > 0:10:44At their end of the day is a vision for the union is a healthy one.
0:10:44 > 0:10:49Gordon Brown is set at out in an He also has said he was against
0:10:49 > 0:10:56physical autonomy, and he also seemed to conflict that with devo
0:10:56 > 0:11:00max, so he seems to think that the options that are being taught a
0:11:00 > 0:11:06boat are dangerous. Clearly that is a different view from Euros.
0:11:06 > 0:11:11certainly is. I am going to be a bit abstract myself, between this
0:11:11 > 0:11:14definition of full fiscal autonomy. In a way, my definition of that is
0:11:14 > 0:11:17independent. Within the union, there are other ways of increasing
0:11:17 > 0:11:22the responsibility of the Parliament, but staying within the
0:11:22 > 0:11:30Union. But you're talking about fiscal powers, greater tax powers
0:11:30 > 0:11:34for Holyrood. I described it as a radical plan, more of a fiscal
0:11:34 > 0:11:37powers coming to Scotland for policy development. Within the
0:11:37 > 0:11:44Unionist debate that is important. I believe that debate will probably
0:11:44 > 0:11:52be more important between the Unionists and nationalists. Gerry
0:11:52 > 0:11:57Hassan, has Gordon Brown sought to kill that debate today? Nor, what I
0:11:57 > 0:12:03think he has done is, it is interesting to hear them talking
0:12:03 > 0:12:11unleashed and freed a bit. Until the Blair-brown ears he was a man
0:12:11 > 0:12:17of enormous charm and charisma. You saw him, talking about equality and
0:12:17 > 0:12:21inequality, one of the core principles of labour, and
0:12:21 > 0:12:25acknowledging that we all have some explaining to do and challenges to
0:12:25 > 0:12:30face about the fact that Scotland as a society is scarred by
0:12:30 > 0:12:35inequality. So is England. We're one of the most unequal places in
0:12:35 > 0:12:39the rich world. Independence or cultural change is what is needed
0:12:39 > 0:12:44to change in Scotland. I think that is the debate we want to look at,
0:12:44 > 0:12:49rather than banging away about what is their greatest defeat -- degree
0:12:49 > 0:12:54of solvency you will have in any package. At least he is trying
0:12:54 > 0:13:01there, I think. He was asked afterwards, Henry
0:13:01 > 0:13:06McLeish, what his answer was to the conundrum that has been posed by
0:13:06 > 0:13:09nationalists who say that if you don't approve of what the
0:13:09 > 0:13:14Conservative-led coalition is doing at Westminster, independence is the
0:13:14 > 0:13:20answer. He did not really take on that point. In terms of response to
0:13:20 > 0:13:27a question, it is a very difficult one. I take more time in the book,
0:13:27 > 0:13:31and Gerry Hassan will do the same committed look at that. -- to look
0:13:31 > 0:13:34at that. One of the and issues it raised was the question, we can
0:13:34 > 0:13:38look at values and principles and social justice and progressiveness
0:13:38 > 0:13:43in politics, but there is not much of it at Westminster. The question
0:13:43 > 0:13:48was really saying come up we take your argument, according, so far,
0:13:48 > 0:13:50but if we are left with the possibility for a perpetual
0:13:50 > 0:13:56conservative alliance or a coalition or Conservative
0:13:56 > 0:14:00Government, that changes the dynamic. On our born or part of a
0:14:00 > 0:14:06union, we could be progressive, but looking to the coalition a lot of
0:14:06 > 0:14:10people are frightened about that implication. How dangerous is it,
0:14:10 > 0:14:15Gerry Hassan, for the Labour Party to be in a campaign with the
0:14:15 > 0:14:23Conservatives and Liberal Democrats, the coalition parties, to fate of
0:14:24 > 0:14:28independence? -- to fight off an independent. You have to have some
0:14:28 > 0:14:33court -- co-ordination of the pro- union forces, but Labour needed to
0:14:33 > 0:14:36develop their own Unionism. Labour has always been a Unionist Party.
0:14:37 > 0:14:42But where Labour used to have strength is it was a party of
0:14:42 > 0:14:48pragmatic Unionism. They never used to see the Union Jack is ours and
0:14:48 > 0:14:51all that. They said the union will bring a better and fairer Scotland.
0:14:51 > 0:14:56Britain is not that nation, we might have enjoyed the Olympics but
0:14:56 > 0:14:58it is not that nation. You have to somehow tell a story that
0:14:58 > 0:15:05acknowledges Labour has made mistakes, it tried as far as it
0:15:05 > 0:15:10could to do things by stealth, and then get back to that agenda. I
0:15:10 > 0:15:13think Scots, despite the fact they defeated the Labour Party
0:15:13 > 0:15:16significantly last year, the view that the Labour Party relatively
0:15:16 > 0:15:20well, but they're not listening to them at the moment because they
0:15:20 > 0:15:25have not said anything distinctive for years. I agree, this is one of
0:15:25 > 0:15:29the great challenge is. The public are in the mood for more honesty in
0:15:29 > 0:15:35politics. They're looking for ideas, and it seems a rich seam to be
0:15:35 > 0:15:41mined in Scotland by Labour, despite the split for SNP, we want
0:15:41 > 0:15:43Labour to be strong at Westminster. There is a narrative that combines
0:15:43 > 0:15:48the more forward-looking view of where Scotland is going to be, and
0:15:48 > 0:15:52getting back to our old roots, saying progress the policies, the
0:15:52 > 0:15:55idea that markets can solve anything, in Scotland people want
0:15:55 > 0:16:04Labour to be saying something positive and currently that is not
0:16:04 > 0:16:08happening. Gordon Brown, in his speech today, doc about Scottish
0:16:08 > 0:16:10values. He used to lecture on British values as Prime Minister,
0:16:10 > 0:16:16but today he talked about a distinctive Scottish values having
0:16:16 > 0:16:20helped to build the union. Justice and community, and suggesting that
0:16:20 > 0:16:26Scotland could still played -- play a leading role in the United
0:16:26 > 0:16:30Kingdom. I think discussions I have seen
0:16:30 > 0:16:34Gordon involved in, the idea of Scottish identity and nationality,
0:16:34 > 0:16:39that is more important in our politics today. If you're someone
0:16:39 > 0:16:44who embraces Britishness, you tend to exclude other parts of the
0:16:44 > 0:16:47United Kingdom. Isn't that what Gordon Brown did as Prime Minister?
0:16:48 > 0:16:52He relentlessly talked about British values. One of the great
0:16:52 > 0:16:56things is people can evolve and move on. I believe this issue is
0:16:56 > 0:16:59being taken more seriously, and if Gordon Brown can do it at the
0:16:59 > 0:17:04Labour Party can do it. Embracing identity and nationality does not
0:17:04 > 0:17:08cut across anyone's social democracy or socialism. One of the
0:17:08 > 0:17:12problems is the Labour Party has got in a book from ideas in a path
0:17:12 > 0:17:17the -- in the past, and Gordon Brown is saying, let's debate it.
0:17:17 > 0:17:23He also said, no matter how many changes the SNP makes and how many
0:17:23 > 0:17:28rough edges they tried to smooth away, in the end, if you are in the
0:17:28 > 0:17:32union you are in the Social Union. Is that true? No, I thought that
0:17:32 > 0:17:36was completely preposterous. You can criticise the Social Union for
0:17:36 > 0:17:40being and a more fierce, ill- defined thing. Some people think it
0:17:40 > 0:17:44is just the fact we live on the same island. I think where Gordon
0:17:44 > 0:17:49Brown fails and most of the Westminster classes feel is that we
0:17:49 > 0:17:53are going to continue in political relationships in these islands,
0:17:53 > 0:17:57whether it is the Post United Kingdom or some continuation of the
0:17:57 > 0:18:01United Kingdom in some fuzzy form of independence. The Labour Party,
0:18:01 > 0:18:07funnily enough, had a policy that was close to this a number of years
0:18:07 > 0:18:13ago was under Donald Dewar. He talked about independence in the UK.
0:18:13 > 0:18:18Very short-lived, that phrase! was popular at the time come and
0:18:18 > 0:18:21people like Donald Dewar liked it. It went beyond devolution.
0:18:21 > 0:18:26Devolution is for a political class. Most punters don't use the term
0:18:26 > 0:18:32devolution. If you talk about real issues, the thought of think Henry
0:18:32 > 0:18:36was is -- mentioning, then people may begin to listen. The us that
0:18:37 > 0:18:40mean you have to start saying what you would do if you were governing
0:18:40 > 0:18:47in independent Scotland? I think that is an argument for further
0:18:47 > 0:18:51down the line. I am not sure of the SNP policy, but they may still want
0:18:51 > 0:18:56to be a nationalist party in an independent Scotland. The point is
0:18:56 > 0:19:01we are one Ireland, but this idea of social, commercial and cultural
0:19:01 > 0:19:07unions, at these things exist. I am not in the independence camp, I
0:19:07 > 0:19:13want to see a union which is transformed. At this point the
0:19:13 > 0:19:20electorate will decide in 2014, but at this point might it goes down. A
0:19:20 > 0:19:23lot of things can intervene between now and 2014. Let's have a more
0:19:23 > 0:19:29confident Scotland, more powers in the Department and the union can be
0:19:29 > 0:19:33transformed. My concern is, if the union does not change, then the
0:19:33 > 0:19:36seeds of destruction for the union will live there, not necessarily in
0:19:36 > 0:19:41Edinburgh. The tis interesting how much Gordon Brown would like to
0:19:41 > 0:19:44take to devolution, although he says he favours more powers. He
0:19:44 > 0:19:48sounds like he has redeemed -- re- engaging in Scottish politics, do
0:19:48 > 0:19:53you think he might take up a more active role at some point? He is
0:19:53 > 0:19:58active just outcome are he was off tonight to do with his African
0:19:58 > 0:20:02politics issues. He is a global stadium -- global statement. Gordon
0:20:02 > 0:20:05Brown as First Minister? Well, I just think he potentially can make
0:20:05 > 0:20:09an enormous contribution to Scotland but he has other jobs, as
0:20:09 > 0:20:13well. So you think he might like to make a comeback through the
0:20:13 > 0:20:19Scottish Parliament? I think you are reading far too much into those
0:20:19 > 0:20:25comets. Gordon Brown has a role to play, he started to next to engage.
0:20:25 > 0:20:31Gerry Hassan, very briefly? If yes, he is a global player. The last
0:20:31 > 0:20:35thing we want is the Blair-Brome years continuing.
0:20:35 > 0:20:37Thank you for joining us. The front page of the Scotsman has Brown
0:20:37 > 0:20:40page of the Scotsman has Brown joins the fray with attack on devo
0:20:40 > 0:20:41max. Some of the Russian athletes are
0:20:41 > 0:20:45Some of the Russian athletes are heading home because the Olympics
0:20:45 > 0:20:55are over. So is Newsnight Scotland, you can watch again on the BBC
0:20:55 > 0:20:57
0:20:57 > 0:21:07No shortage of weather coming in our direction over the next few
0:21:07 > 0:21:07
0:21:07 > 0:21:12days. Quite a humid day, quite steamy and showers will develop.
0:21:12 > 0:21:16They will be quite heavy all over the UK. It is very difficult to
0:21:16 > 0:21:21nail down the detail of where the showers will occur. Possibly some
0:21:21 > 0:21:26fun there by the afternoon. Temperatures in between the showers
0:21:26 > 0:21:30in sunny spells easily getting up to the low 20s. Hopefully for the
0:21:30 > 0:21:36south-west it will not be too bad, most -- avoiding most of the
0:21:36 > 0:21:41showers, but elsewhere across Wales some heavy ones, and indeed for
0:21:41 > 0:21:47Northern Ireland we could well see some heavy showers, slow-moving,
0:21:47 > 0:21:51winds not too strong. For Scotland, some bright this away from the far
0:21:51 > 0:21:57some bright this away from the far north-east. On Wednesday it turns
0:21:57 > 0:22:01really wet and windy across the most northern areas eventually. The
0:22:01 > 0:22:06rain will arrive further south, where it is particularly nasty out
0:22:06 > 0:22:10west. Warnings have already been issued. We will show you the chart
0:22:10 > 0:22:14for Wednesday and you will see what I mean. We are all going to see a