:00:01. > :00:11.recognise that's why we've seen changes over the years. Thank you
:00:11. > :00:14.
:00:14. > :00:18.Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, there seems to be growing
:00:18. > :00:22.opposition to proposals the SNP should become pro-NATO. Is this a
:00:22. > :00:26.serious split in a party which prides itself on its unity? We'll
:00:26. > :00:31.hear from both sides. Also tonight, will minimum pricing
:00:31. > :00:36.for alcohol lead to cross-border price wars?
:00:36. > :00:39.Good evening. This weekend we'll see a meeting of a hitherto rather
:00:39. > :00:43.insignificant subgroup of the SNP. It's attracting attention because
:00:43. > :00:47.it's being seen as the focus of rebellion against the proposals to
:00:47. > :00:50.change policy on NATO. The SNP's National Conference in October will
:00:50. > :01:00.make the decision. In the meantime, opposition to the changes seems to
:01:00. > :01:03.
:01:03. > :01:07.In the 60s, as the SNP began to fight for some sort of electoral
:01:07. > :01:13.credibility. Radical opinion in Scotland was focused on the nuke
:01:13. > :01:22.lar weapons on the US navy and Royal Navy subMarines stationed on
:01:22. > :01:28.the Clyde. Scotland had the holy loch and Faslane reminders of the
:01:28. > :01:33.threat posed by the possibility of a war with the USSR. 40 years on,
:01:33. > :01:40.as the SNP made it into power, it still held onto anti-nuclear and
:01:40. > :01:44.anti-NATO policies which have undoubtedly provided it with votes
:01:44. > :01:51.where the political priority was the nuclear weapons. An independent
:01:51. > :01:56.Scotland should be part of NATO, the SNP are reversing decisions.
:01:56. > :02:05.But earlier this year it became clear that NATO membership was
:02:05. > :02:09.being considered for a -- independent Scotland. There's a lot
:02:09. > :02:12.of behind-the-scenes work going on on difficult issues where they
:02:12. > :02:15.believe the prospeck Tuesday needs to be all together much more
:02:16. > :02:19.fleshed out so the people know what they're supporting. Despite denials
:02:19. > :02:24.at the time, a couple of months later, the SNP high command
:02:24. > :02:29.announced that it does want to move the party onto a pro-NATO footing,
:02:29. > :02:32.though nukes on the Clyde would remain entirely unacceptable.
:02:32. > :02:37.are prepared to work with neighbours and allies, one for all,
:02:37. > :02:41.all for one, that is what NATO is supposed to be about. That is for
:02:41. > :02:46.us and other NATO members primarily about conventional defence,
:02:46. > :02:51.cooperating, operating together, being, watching one another's backs.
:02:51. > :02:56.That's what our neighbours want. We want to get rid of Trident but to
:02:56. > :03:00.work together with neighbours and friends. I will support the
:03:00. > :03:05.conference resolution put forward by Angus rb ertson but the
:03:05. > :03:10.delegates will decide. You'll support the decision? Correct.
:03:10. > :03:15.Since it became clear that the pro- NATO resolution has support at the
:03:15. > :03:21.very top, some commentators had been surprised bit strength of the
:03:21. > :03:24.SNP feeling against the policy change. At least six MSPs have made
:03:25. > :03:29.public their opposition. Others, including ministers, are thought to
:03:29. > :03:35.be uncomfortable with. It only last night the Highland MSP got involved
:03:35. > :03:39.in a Twitter argument with the MP Angus MacNeil asking - what example
:03:39. > :03:43.does it set to oppose weapons of mass destruction then join the
:03:43. > :03:47.weapons of mass destruction's club? In a party that is celebrated its
:03:47. > :03:50.unity of purpose, this is being seen as the most significant
:03:50. > :03:58.questioning of the leadership bit membership since the SNP took power
:03:58. > :04:02.in 2007. It's clearly a political gamble by
:04:02. > :04:06.the leadership and they risk alienating the left-wingers and any
:04:06. > :04:12.voters who supported them mainly because of the defence issue. The
:04:12. > :04:15.outcome of the meeting of SNP/CND and how it feeds into the
:04:15. > :04:24.conference may define how united the SNP will be in the run up to an
:04:24. > :04:27.independence referendum. Now, MSPs who are planning to vote
:04:27. > :04:32.against the party leadership are proving shy this week, but I am
:04:32. > :04:41.joined by the organiser of the SNP/CND group, Bill Ramsay. And
:04:41. > :04:45.from Edinburgh by journalist and former SNP candidate George Kerevan.
:04:45. > :04:50.Bill, how much support do you think you have within the party?
:04:50. > :05:00.Significant amount. You said a number of MSPs were shy in terms of
:05:00. > :05:09.trying to defend party policy, but there's a Devonening -- deafening
:05:10. > :05:13.silence. The idea that MSPs who want to retain party policy is in
:05:13. > :05:20.some way shy, it's the other way round. Can you mention more than
:05:20. > :05:24.two who've come out publicically to support the change in policy? Maybe
:05:24. > :05:30.George can. Are you implying that you have within the Cabinet that
:05:30. > :05:35.hasn't made itself public? implying, I'm not implying anything,
:05:35. > :05:41.it's fact. You've listed six MSPs and at the weekend there will be
:05:41. > :05:47.more. I know of I think two MSPs who have come out and supported, as
:05:47. > :05:52.well as the two MPs of course, maybe there are others. But there
:05:52. > :05:56.hasn't been much from them at the moment in. That sense the idea that
:05:56. > :06:00.the people are trying to defend current policy are rebels is simply
:06:01. > :06:04.not the case. We're defending current policy because we think
:06:04. > :06:09.that an independent Scotland, the way to get rid of Trident, you
:06:09. > :06:13.first of all get rid of Trident then the Scottish people will
:06:13. > :06:17.choose what they want to do. First of all, get rid of Trident. Do you
:06:17. > :06:22.think you have enough support to win? I think the support is growing.
:06:22. > :06:26.We hope to have enough support to win. Do you think they've got any
:06:26. > :06:29.chance of winning, George? It's an honest debate and we'll see. The
:06:29. > :06:32.great thing about this debate is that Scottish people will decide
:06:32. > :06:37.their foreign policy for the first time instead of politicians in
:06:37. > :06:43.London who want to have a policy based on selling more arms or cow
:06:43. > :06:48.to youing to Washington. Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean. It's
:06:48. > :06:51.members of the Scottish National Party. Yes but it's presenting a
:06:51. > :06:55.position ultimately to the referendum in 2014. Whatever
:06:55. > :06:59.happens, whatever is decided is being decided here in Scotland.
:06:59. > :07:02.That's my point. It's not being decided in London where foreign
:07:02. > :07:06.policy is about selling arms and taking a line from the White House.
:07:06. > :07:10.In fact, what will happen in Scotland is we'll take a moral
:07:10. > :07:16.decision. The SNP is totally united on getting rid of Trident. That's
:07:16. > :07:21.not the issue. The issue is how to get rid of nuclear weapons from
:07:21. > :07:24.Europe. For three years the Germans in NATO have been per suing a
:07:24. > :07:28.campaigning to get rid of nuclear weapons in Europe. It's better for
:07:28. > :07:33.Scotland to be in NATO helping the Germans than being on the side
:07:33. > :07:38.lines. The Germans have failed. Hang on, can you just have a stab
:07:39. > :07:45.at answering the question, do you think that Bill ramsy and his
:07:45. > :07:50.supporters have a chance of winning at the conference, or is your
:07:50. > :07:54.assessment that the majority of the party shares your view? I suspect
:07:54. > :07:59.about 7% of the party will accept that Scotland should stay in NATO
:07:59. > :08:03.and fight its anti-nuclear case there. If Scotland stays in NATO,
:08:03. > :08:08.then we'll be doing exactly what Germany has done, failed. Germany
:08:08. > :08:14.is the powerhouse of Europe. It is the centre of the European economy,
:08:14. > :08:18.as we're finding out at moment. It has not only failed to rid itself
:08:18. > :08:23.of the tactical nuclear weapons, it has the support of the German
:08:23. > :08:27.Foreign Minister, the nuclear weapons are actually being upgraded.
:08:27. > :08:30.As well, the Belgian and Dutch Parliament have voted to get rid of
:08:30. > :08:33.the tactical nuclear weapons and they have failed. Therefore we
:08:33. > :08:38.should get rid of Trident first of all, then we can have a debate
:08:38. > :08:43.about whether or not we wish to join NATO. Right, but you can see
:08:43. > :08:47.that it's important if the SNP is asking people to vote for setting
:08:47. > :08:51.up a new country, it's quite important to say whether or not you
:08:51. > :08:54.would like that new country to be part of NATO. That's the choice of
:08:54. > :08:57.the Scottish people. That's the point about independence. Hang on,
:08:57. > :09:00.you might as well say the SNP should have no policies on anything
:09:00. > :09:05.other than becoming independent and everything else should be decided
:09:05. > :09:11.later. No, that's not the case. We are a progressive, left of centre
:09:11. > :09:15.party. This is a big tactical issue. The best way to get rid of nuclear
:09:15. > :09:20.weapons, from a negotiating position, is outside of NATO.
:09:20. > :09:24.Because those who have tried to rid themselves of tactical nuclear
:09:24. > :09:30.weapons... I mean consider the power of Germany at this time.
:09:31. > :09:35.You're wrong about this. Give him a shot George. Bill you're wrong
:09:35. > :09:38.about. This the Germans don't just want rid of the 200 tactical
:09:38. > :09:41.warheads the Americans have in Europe. They want rid of the 2,000
:09:41. > :09:45.warheads that the Russians have in Europe. So the Germans are trying
:09:45. > :09:51.to push both sides into negotiations because there have
:09:51. > :09:55.never been negotiations over disarming tactical weapons. The
:09:55. > :09:59.Germans, the Belgians, Dutch and Norwegians and the scots should be
:09:59. > :10:03.there to get both sides to take their nukes out of Europe. That's
:10:03. > :10:07.the debate. We both agree on doing that. This is not confrontation
:10:07. > :10:13.politics. We both agree on that. But Scotland should be in NATO.
:10:13. > :10:19.Surely the logic of what you're saying is to use nuclear weapons as
:10:19. > :10:24.bargaining chips for multilateral disarmament. Presumably you
:10:24. > :10:28.disagree with the SNP's policy which is unilaterally to get rid of
:10:28. > :10:32.nuclear weapons. That's not it. The British Government is about to
:10:32. > :10:36.spend �100 billion of money it doesn't really have to build a
:10:36. > :10:40.whole new neek leer missile submarine system. That's hardly
:10:40. > :10:46.going to encourage the Russians to abandon their tactical weapons.
:10:46. > :10:51.That may be. But the logic of what you said was that you would reject
:10:51. > :10:55.unilaterally, therefore you reject SNP policy on not just a new
:10:55. > :10:59.generation of Trident but getting rid of existing law. No that's your
:10:59. > :11:02.logic. The way we'll do this is for major countries in Europe,
:11:02. > :11:06.including an independent Scotland, to gang up and force this change.
:11:06. > :11:10.If Scotland is on the side lines it won't have a vote in this. I don't
:11:10. > :11:13.think the people of Scotland will vote for independence and
:11:13. > :11:20.neutrality, that's a side issue. The issue I want to see is getting
:11:20. > :11:25.an independent Scotland in NATO to have a say. Does that sound like
:11:25. > :11:28.unilateral disarmament to you? Whatever, we have Finland, Sweden,
:11:28. > :11:34.Austria, Ireland, Switzerland, these countries are normal European
:11:34. > :11:38.countries and they're not in NATO. They intervene positively in
:11:38. > :11:44.international relations. In the United States, military analysts
:11:44. > :11:52.refer to NATO as Snow White and the 27 dwarfs. That's the power
:11:52. > :11:56.politics within NATO. That's the relation. I'm curious as to how
:11:56. > :12:01.important this issue is to you? It's a diversion. The issue
:12:01. > :12:07.shouldn't have been raised. important, you know, if the people
:12:07. > :12:10.who support you as George believes that 70% will go against what you
:12:11. > :12:14.want, what is the reaction of the people of you and your people who
:12:14. > :12:20.support you? Are you going to say fine, that's SNP policy, we'll go
:12:20. > :12:26.along with. It or is this a make or break issue? We're going to argue,
:12:26. > :12:30.the SNP aren't like other mainstream parties actually has,
:12:30. > :12:34.sitting here having debates about important issues. In some sense
:12:34. > :12:38.that's a cultural shift. I think the media in Scotland will have to
:12:38. > :12:42.get their heads round it. There's going to be a significant debate in
:12:42. > :12:47.Scotland really significant party. Part of that is to come to a clon
:12:47. > :12:51.collusion. -- conclusion. We believe the way to get - Right if
:12:51. > :12:55.you lose you say that's fine, that's a democratic decision and
:12:55. > :13:00.we'll ge along with it? We'll see what happens. No-one's talking
:13:00. > :13:05.about leaving the party. That fantasy narrative is not being
:13:05. > :13:12.punted by anyone. So you are presumably happy with that, you
:13:12. > :13:18.just win and they shut up? there's an ongoing dialogue.
:13:18. > :13:23.Because you've been brought up in a confrontation television, you can't
:13:23. > :13:28.understand when people narrow their differences. We agree about nuclear
:13:28. > :13:33.weapons, but how to do that, that debate will go on and on. I think
:13:33. > :13:40.we will win support of the Scottish people to stay in NATO. Is there,
:13:40. > :13:44.do you agree with what he says on the broader issues on multilateral
:13:44. > :13:48.disarmament? I think George would not necessarily agree with some of
:13:48. > :13:54.the things as it's interpreted. I'm not getting into that. What we
:13:54. > :13:58.believe is that the way to remove nuclear weapons from Scotland is to
:13:58. > :14:02.remain without NATO and after, when we see the last Trident boat sail
:14:02. > :14:08.down the Clyde, that's when to have the debate of whether or not
:14:08. > :14:12.Scotland should be join NATO. Presumably, I can look forward to
:14:12. > :14:20.having my cultural changed further when a series of internal splits in
:14:20. > :14:23.the SNP are going to be aired in public. It's debate. Sorry internal
:14:23. > :14:27.debate. In the next two years we'll see very good debate. It's good
:14:27. > :14:31.that Scotland is having this debate. One thing I will agree with Bill is
:14:31. > :14:35.that we can't skirt the NATO debate. He might want to leave it till
:14:35. > :14:38.after the referendum. The London media will not allow us to do that.
:14:38. > :14:43.We have to be up front. Thank you both.
:14:43. > :14:47.Would you be a booze price refugee? A cross-border row has broken out
:14:47. > :14:54.by the ruling Labour group in Northumberland to target Scots
:14:54. > :14:58.drinkers once minimum pricing comes into effect. The Council reckon
:14:58. > :15:01.border towns could cash in when a price differential is established.
:15:01. > :15:11.Opponents north and South O'The Border call the proposals
:15:11. > :15:17.irresponsible. David Allison reports. It all looks very peaceful
:15:17. > :15:27.in Berwick. The days of cross- border skirmishes are ancient
:15:27. > :15:28.
:15:28. > :15:32.history. But that could be about to change. Berwick could become a
:15:32. > :15:35.centre for Scots booze tourism if the ruling Labour group on the
:15:35. > :15:39.Council get their way. The leader of the Council wants to take
:15:39. > :15:42.advantage of any price differential on alcohol as a result of minimum
:15:42. > :15:46.pricing being introduced in Scotland some time next year.
:15:46. > :15:52.Thfrpblgts was a way to allow the shops to cash in on trade which
:15:52. > :15:57.would be out of season in the main. You know, towards Christmas time
:15:57. > :16:04.things like this. It was a complete economic argument. The problem with
:16:04. > :16:08.binge drinking in Scotland, we were hoping to act on the difference and
:16:08. > :16:18.the surplus between expendable income in Scotland and expendable
:16:18. > :16:18.
:16:18. > :16:21.income in England. Exploiting borders for retail purposes is
:16:21. > :16:25.common. Take Northern Ireland for example. Attracting shoppers from
:16:25. > :16:30.the republic because of lower VAT and duty.
:16:30. > :16:35.It's not just the weekly shop. Petrol or electrical goods which
:16:35. > :16:39.are attractive. Booze is also a factor.
:16:40. > :16:48.Some politicians in Northumberland are horrified at suggestions they
:16:48. > :16:53.should go down the same route and not lead Lib Dem Anita Romer.
:16:53. > :16:56.I first read the article I couldn't believe it because to me it sounded
:16:56. > :17:01.nonsense. It was patronise together people of Scotland actually. I
:17:01. > :17:05.really don't think Northumberland needs to gain money this way. There
:17:05. > :17:10.are other ways. We're a great tourist place. We have everything.
:17:10. > :17:16.We don't need people coming across from Scotland to buy this cheap
:17:16. > :17:21.booze. In Scotland, the SNP have branded the policy irresponsible
:17:21. > :17:24.and have called on Scottish Labour to distance themselves from Labour
:17:25. > :17:29.in Northumberland. The main issue is the use of public funds as
:17:29. > :17:32.proposed to advertise the fact that alcohol is cheaper in England post
:17:32. > :17:38.minimum pricing. That's the mistake that people are concerned about,
:17:39. > :17:43.the fact that local Councils thought it was a good idea to use
:17:43. > :17:47.public funds for advertising. It's just morally objectionable that
:17:47. > :17:51.they were intending to do that. spokesman for Scottish Labour said
:17:51. > :17:55.their focus is on reducing consumption, but it's for
:17:55. > :17:59.Northumberland Council to make their own decisions. Anyone who
:17:59. > :18:07.says it's an irresponsible idea to attract more trade to an area is
:18:07. > :18:12.being irresponsible. Any idea to engage with more people and sell
:18:12. > :18:18.more of our products from Northumberland to whoever wishes to
:18:18. > :18:24.come here must be the responsible way forward. On the matter of
:18:24. > :18:26.actual alcohol consumption, that is empossess -- that is people's
:18:26. > :18:31.personal choice. Whether controlling the hours you can buy
:18:31. > :18:35.alcohol or minimum pricing, Scottish governments of various
:18:35. > :18:42.complefplgss have moved to tighter controls on drinks. The current
:18:42. > :18:48.Health Secretary said, "Introducing a minimum price per unit will
:18:48. > :18:51.enable to tackle Scotland's problem with alcohol and save lives. The UK
:18:51. > :18:56.Government is no considering a minimum price for alcohol in
:18:56. > :18:59.England. It's highly unlikely that a minimum price that will only
:18:59. > :19:09.affect a proportion of alcohol sales would make it worth their
:19:09. > :19:14.
:19:14. > :19:20.while to travel as it would cost Of course, what actually will
:19:20. > :19:24.happen in places across the border remains to be seen. But if you
:19:24. > :19:33.fancy a quiet visit to this historic town, you might just have
:19:33. > :19:38.a year left to do it. Quick look at the papers: I should
:19:38. > :19:41.tell you that one story tonight is that the Sun have taken the
:19:41. > :19:45.decision to public the naked pictures of Prince Harry. On the
:19:45. > :19:50.front page in the herald - abuser front page in the herald - abuser