:00:08. > :00:11.covering -- govern -- good Tonight on Newsnight Scotland. The
:00:11. > :00:14.government promises 15 bills in the new session of parliament, but 14
:00:14. > :00:18.of them are overshadowed by legislation for a referendum on
:00:18. > :00:21.independence. I'll be asking the Finance
:00:21. > :00:25.Secretary why we're still no wiser about what kind of referendum the
:00:25. > :00:30.SNP really wants. And we'll hear what his opponents make of today's
:00:30. > :00:32.events. Good evening. As Westminster
:00:33. > :00:36.resounded today to the cheers and jeers of David Cameron's reshuffle,
:00:36. > :00:39.Holyrood was engrossed in Alex Salmond's plans for his next term.
:00:39. > :00:41.Five years after coming to power, he will finally introduce a
:00:41. > :00:51.referendum bill, although it is still not clear what kind of
:00:51. > :00:55.
:00:55. > :01:00.referendum he wants. Laura Bicker This is the Scotland squad at
:01:00. > :01:05.limbering up. They have one ultimate date and one ultimate
:01:05. > :01:12.contest in mind. Of course not a referendum, the World Cup. But it
:01:12. > :01:20.is in 2014! Here is another squad ready for a new season. Laying out
:01:20. > :01:27.their priorities. No prizes for guessing what is on their minds.
:01:27. > :01:30.Now sane person in this Parliament or elsewhere would want powers over
:01:30. > :01:35.universities for our health service to be returned to Westminster --
:01:35. > :01:40.and no sane person. But if we can manage those services more
:01:40. > :01:47.effectively than the UK government, why should we not also have control
:01:47. > :01:53.over pensions, welfare, and at what our own voice in the world? The SNP
:01:53. > :01:58.have come up with a table of 15 bills. Near the top of measures to
:01:58. > :02:04.mitigate the economic slowdown. The procurement reform Bill has been
:02:04. > :02:08.labelled business-friendly, as has the budget bill. The bill to allow
:02:08. > :02:15.same-sex couples to marry is also part of the programme, along with
:02:15. > :02:21.measures to show they care and one to reform public services. The idea
:02:21. > :02:28.is to give families a minimum of 600 hours of free early learning
:02:28. > :02:33.and childcare a year in a bill for children and young people. Alex
:02:34. > :02:37.Salmond visited a family centre in Leith just before his speech in
:02:38. > :02:43.Holyrood. At the Scottish government says �80 million will be
:02:43. > :02:50.spent on supporting families. He says it is a way of mitigating cuts
:02:50. > :02:55.from Westminster. We have to face at the impact of the common welfare
:02:55. > :02:59.changes from Westminster, at they will bear down on hundreds and
:02:59. > :03:06.thousands in Scotland. These initiatives I have outlined, good
:03:06. > :03:12.things to do at any time, are going to be essential in the coming times.
:03:12. > :03:18.But top of the SNP legislative a week is the independence referendum
:03:18. > :03:21.Bill, the one overriding concern of this Parliament -- a legislative
:03:21. > :03:25.full league. Opponents claim it will overshadow the programme of
:03:25. > :03:31.government. For a agree with Alex Salmond on the constitution and
:03:31. > :03:36.that can be an honourable disagreement -- I do not agree.
:03:36. > :03:40.he will not use the powers he already has to help Scotland today.
:03:40. > :03:46.This programme made the nationalist but it is not one of a Patricks
:03:46. > :03:52.that cares about Scotland's needs - - at make the nationalist but it is
:03:52. > :03:57.not one of a parliament. Here dresses this up as being about the
:03:57. > :04:02.economy, but it is dominated by one thing -- he dresses this Arc. The
:04:02. > :04:06.Scottish government's obsession of tearing up the United Kingdom, one
:04:06. > :04:11.which fails to address the most pressing concerns of the Scottish
:04:11. > :04:20.people. A be spend more time arguing for a second question --
:04:20. > :04:25.they spend more time. And now, they are the defining independence at a
:04:25. > :04:31.ferocious rate to include more and more of the British state they have
:04:31. > :04:38.previously demonised. You get the distinct impression that the SNP
:04:38. > :04:42.now fear its own policy. So the warm-up is over and it is time to
:04:43. > :04:47.play the game. The SNP has set out its goals and like many others
:04:47. > :04:53.across the country, buries one preoccupation and one date which
:04:53. > :04:59.will dominate the headlines. -- there is one preoccupation. But
:04:59. > :05:01.public support for the Independence I am joined now by the Finance
:05:01. > :05:08.Secretary John Swinney, who is in Dundee. The Conservatives' Jackson
:05:08. > :05:12.Carlaw is in Edinburgh, as is Labour's Kezia Dugdale. John
:05:12. > :05:15.Swinney, it now and you have this parliamentary programme, can we
:05:16. > :05:20.finally confidently expect a referendum on independence with a
:05:20. > :05:25.yes or no questions so you can get a chance to vote for what you have
:05:25. > :05:31.been trying to achieve all your life? There would be a referendum
:05:31. > :05:35.in autumn 2014 and legislation to enable that to happen. I will get
:05:35. > :05:40.an opportunity to vote for Scottish independence which I have devoted
:05:40. > :05:45.my adult life to in -- to securing and nothing will make me happier
:05:45. > :05:51.than to vote for the chance to make Scotland a prosperous and if their
:05:51. > :05:57.country. A how many questions will be in that referendum? That is
:05:57. > :06:04.still in consultation. How men a questions would you like to be in
:06:04. > :06:06.that referendum? -- How many questions. The consultation
:06:06. > :06:10.attracted over 26,000 responses from the public and organisations
:06:10. > :06:15.in Scotland, 10 times that responded to the equivalent
:06:15. > :06:21.exercise... Refraction of those that responded to your game
:06:21. > :06:26.marriage consultation and that -- consultation. -- a fraction. We are
:06:26. > :06:31.doing all consultations to consider the issues. How many questions to
:06:31. > :06:35.you personally think they should be? I fully subscribe to the
:06:35. > :06:40.Scottish government's position which is that our preference is for
:06:40. > :06:44.there to be a single question. We remain open to the fact there are
:06:44. > :06:50.many people in Scotland that want us to consider the possibility of
:06:50. > :06:55.an additional question of no powers for the Scottish Parliament. So I
:06:55. > :07:00.want to fulfil but promised to listen to the people of Scotland,
:07:00. > :07:04.and that is what we should do -- fulfil the promise. Your opponent
:07:04. > :07:09.will say you only what a two question referendum because you
:07:09. > :07:15.know you could not win a one question referendum. If the polls
:07:15. > :07:22.were 60% for independence, you would not be interested in a second
:07:22. > :07:29.question. I am sure my opponents will say whatever they say! But our
:07:29. > :07:31.position on this is that there is a clearly expressed appetite in
:07:31. > :07:35.Scotland for there to be more constitutional options put in front
:07:35. > :07:40.of the people, and the Scottish government is simply listening to
:07:40. > :07:46.the people of Scotland, as any responsible government should do,
:07:46. > :07:51.that is precisely what we are doing. Given that you have ignored a big
:07:51. > :07:55.consultation on gay marriage, what are you saying? That if a majority
:07:55. > :07:59.comes through in your consultation in favour of a two question
:07:59. > :08:04.referendum, if you will insist on having a two question referendum
:08:04. > :08:09.even if the government refuses to give you a section 30 order against
:08:09. > :08:14.legal challenge? Can you give that commitment now? The Scottish
:08:14. > :08:19.government listens carefully to what the people say. You have just
:08:19. > :08:23.ignored a long consultation, are you St Ewe will not ignore this
:08:23. > :08:29.consultation -- are you saying he would not ignore this consultation?
:08:29. > :08:34.I disagree, we have listened to the same sex consultation, we have
:08:34. > :08:41.listened to both sides had come up with what is a respectful approach
:08:41. > :08:44.on this?. We respect the aspiration of people in same-sex marriages --
:08:44. > :08:51.relationships to embark on marriage and we respect the right of the
:08:51. > :08:55.Church to have nothing to do with that if they wish. You just ignored
:08:55. > :09:02.the vast majority of people in your consultation he said they did not
:09:02. > :09:07.want what you are proposing. -- who said. If a majority of people in a
:09:07. > :09:10.referendum want to questions, would you give them two questions even if
:09:10. > :09:16.it means to find the British Government and not having a section
:09:16. > :09:21.30 order? -- two questions. All you are saying this, we have not made
:09:21. > :09:26.up our minds and we are keeping our options open, despite the fact we
:09:26. > :09:31.have spent decades campaigning for it, we are not prepared to say what
:09:31. > :09:35.a referendum on independence amounts to a. Or even if we will
:09:35. > :09:41.ignore our consultation or pay attention to it. All the details
:09:41. > :09:45.will become clear very shortly and it is day-case you have to be just
:09:45. > :09:50.a pay -- you just have to beat -- and it is a case that you have to
:09:50. > :09:55.be patient about it. It will be informed by the consultation on the
:09:55. > :09:58.dialogue we take forward with the United Kingdom government. This
:09:58. > :10:04.will be well publicised and scrutinised when the Scottish
:10:04. > :10:10.government sets out the proposals. The phrase informed by, to be
:10:10. > :10:13.revealed at a later date. Economic policy, whatever the merits of
:10:13. > :10:19.transferring money from current spending to capital spending may be
:10:19. > :10:22.a great idea, for a government which wants to set up a new nation
:10:22. > :10:31.state, you seem to have a remarkable amount of ideas of what
:10:31. > :10:36.you can do with the amount of ideas I don't think that is a fair
:10:36. > :10:43.assessment. On the economy? Brit you're meant is designed to
:10:44. > :10:51.streamline the system. It is delivering a greater connection.
:10:51. > :10:57.The fabulous. We have a regulated framework which is appropriate for
:10:57. > :11:03.taking up for the interests of our economy. What you will know it is
:11:03. > :11:09.that these measures which we take forward, which I explain on this
:11:09. > :11:15.programme, how we utilise public expenditure to attract
:11:15. > :11:25.apprenticeships and business. That is to ensure we are able to command
:11:25. > :11:30.a leadership of attractiveness as they -- assessments. That is
:11:30. > :11:36.conveniently ignored in the points that you have made. What you can
:11:36. > :11:43.see is a government that is focused on delivering economic recovery.
:11:43. > :11:48.Until we have the full economic powers at our disposal, we will not
:11:48. > :11:50.be able to ensure that Scotland is equipped for the challenges ahead.
:11:50. > :11:55.Labour criticised John Swinney and his colleagues for not using the
:11:55. > :12:02.powers that they have to do anything about the economy, you to
:12:02. > :12:06.seem to have a lack of ideas about what they should be doing? A awry
:12:06. > :12:09.number of contradictions about what he's saying. He says there is a
:12:09. > :12:13.future that a potential in procurement, but he has spent most
:12:13. > :12:22.of the afternoon talking about how the EU is getting in the way of
:12:22. > :12:25.that. I did not ask you to do a practical criticism, I asked you
:12:25. > :12:31.for some new ideas that you had, given that you claim he does not
:12:31. > :12:38.have any. Alex Salmond said that you cannot have recovery without
:12:38. > :12:43.recovery in the construction centre. Discovered is cutting �110 million
:12:43. > :12:50.in building across Scotland, I think he's the one, you have the
:12:51. > :12:54.Finance Secretary in the studio. The government has �30 billion at
:12:54. > :13:01.its disposal, this is all about choices, the Labour Party would not
:13:01. > :13:11.be cutting this money, we believe that affects people's out -- out
:13:11. > :13:12.
:13:12. > :13:21.leg. I'm not hearing anything new. We need to build her things to get
:13:21. > :13:26.people into work. Jackson Carlow, do you have any new ideas about
:13:26. > :13:31.have to get the economy moving? biggest obstacle is the uncertainty
:13:31. > :13:40.about the constitution. They have said they are a government focused
:13:40. > :13:44.on recovery, but they have spent the summer trailing the referendum,
:13:44. > :13:49.talking about NATO, talking about their obsession with independence.
:13:49. > :13:59.I think that kind of uncertainty undermines economic recovery. I
:13:59. > :14:00.
:14:00. > :14:07.think people in Scotland want to get this issue result. This is a
:14:07. > :14:11.magnificent way not to answer the question, what ideas you have? --
:14:11. > :14:14.to you have? We underlined a programme about reducing the
:14:14. > :14:19.deficit, the government is very quick to say they would do
:14:20. > :14:25.everything different, our view is that if you do not reduce the
:14:25. > :14:33.deficit, you leave us with much higher interest rates, much higher
:14:33. > :14:37.repayment of debt, much higher mortgages, and no recovery. I am
:14:38. > :14:41.not here to say that the government in Scotland is full of men who were
:14:41. > :14:49.not doing anything worthwhile for the future of Scotland, I think
:14:49. > :14:54.that is a bit are they typical line, I think they are doing something so
:14:54. > :15:01.Scotland, I don't think they are fully focused. Do you have any new
:15:01. > :15:05.ideas? We do not think they should be introducing a we tell levy on
:15:05. > :15:10.businesses, we would not be introducing that. If we think the
:15:10. > :15:15.money should be used on regeneration. We think the
:15:15. > :15:22.priorities on spending, the abolition of the prescriptions, or
:15:22. > :15:26.we have advocated different policies. I just don't think the
:15:26. > :15:33.governor is making the full use of the powers they have. They are
:15:33. > :15:41.criticising everything at Westminster, as if Scotland works
:15:41. > :15:45.in a different bubble from everyone else in the world. Scotland needs
:15:45. > :15:51.to get on with it. I don't understand why the SNP can't have
:15:51. > :15:55.the referendum right now. They say they cannot wait to have the
:15:55. > :15:58.economic powers they need to make things happen, had at the same time
:15:58. > :16:03.he is saying Scotland is outperforming the rest of the UK.
:16:03. > :16:11.If he does not have the powers to get economic growth, then bring on
:16:11. > :16:19.the referendum, let's get on with it. Why don't you? You said in your
:16:19. > :16:29.manifesto some time in the second half of Parliament. If it is so
:16:29. > :16:29.
:16:29. > :16:34.important, have it in a couple of weeks' time? Our opponents need to
:16:34. > :16:40.come to terms with the fact that they want us to fill our manifesto
:16:40. > :16:50.when it suits them, we said we would do it in the second half of
:16:50. > :16:53.
:16:53. > :16:57.term. A knot in your manifesto. not in your manifesto. If you think
:16:57. > :17:00.the economy is in a mess because of the Westminster government, and you
:17:00. > :17:08.believe a Westminster Scotland can turn that around, is there not a
:17:08. > :17:14.case for saying that in the special circumstances we need to bring it
:17:15. > :17:18.forward? We have to take due account of the fact that this is
:17:18. > :17:23.quite clearly the biggest decision that people in Scotland will have
:17:23. > :17:31.taken in a 300 years. We must make sure that the decision is taken in
:17:31. > :17:39.a well-informed and orderly process. That is why we said it was right to
:17:39. > :17:42.have it happen in the second half of the parliamentary term. The
:17:42. > :17:49.United Kingdom Government are happy with the timescale of the autumn of
:17:49. > :17:52.2014. I think we should stick to the timetable, the orderly process
:17:52. > :18:02.that we are taking forward, and make sure we take the right
:18:02. > :18:03.
:18:03. > :18:08.decision to vote yes. Your thoughts on this? By delaying yet, it will
:18:08. > :18:15.preoccupy -- by delaying yet, it will preoccupy everything else in
:18:15. > :18:24.Scotland. As John Swinney has pointed out, the government that
:18:24. > :18:28.you are part of is quite happy with that. Is your government have be to
:18:28. > :18:37.damage Scotland? What the UK Government has said is that the
:18:37. > :18:42.most important issue is having a clear vote. What is happening is
:18:42. > :18:47.that almost all other discussion about important issues facing
:18:47. > :18:57.Scotland are being put on the back- burner. That is what we are talking
:18:57. > :18:58.
:18:58. > :19:02.about. We are running at -- running out of time. Your opinion on a tour
:19:02. > :19:05.of question referendum? It should be a single question, it is
:19:05. > :19:14.difficult to start defining what the second question would mean. The
:19:14. > :19:18.Prime Minister said he is open to additional powers. Two questions?
:19:18. > :19:25.They have a mandate for an independence referendum, yes or no,
:19:25. > :19:29.let's get some of it. It is quite odd that they are campaigning for a
:19:29. > :19:36.single question, and beef party that is in favour just wants to
:19:36. > :19:40.muddy the waters? The government of Scotland is connected to the people
:19:40. > :19:44.of Scotland, and listening to their views. It is ridiculous that the
:19:44. > :19:50.Unionist parties are prepared to just ignore the fact that many
:19:50. > :19:55.people in Scotland want to consider other options. We will address that
:19:55. > :20:05.in the timetable set out. Thank you very much.
:20:05. > :20:05.