:00:13. > :00:18.contempt? OK. That is your opinion. Tonight on Newsnight Scotland,
:00:18. > :00:22.could an independent Scotland of orders benefits bill? The Work and
:00:22. > :00:24.Pensions Secretary claims not, as he got a point? And is the
:00:24. > :00:27.government to secretive? The Information Commissioner seems do
:00:27. > :00:31.think so. Good evening. When the man in
:00:31. > :00:34.charge in the UK's benefit systems in this morning that an independent
:00:34. > :00:39.Scotland would not be able to afford his welfare bill the
:00:39. > :00:42.reaction from the SNP was ferocious. A fence of said Alex Salmond. The
:00:42. > :00:47.Work and Pensions Secretary had claimed Scotland received a six %
:00:47. > :00:50.more per person in welfare payments compared to the rest of the UK. Not
:00:50. > :00:57.unreasonable says the First Minister after all we pay more in
:00:57. > :01:01.taxes. Towns like this one are still trying to recover from the
:01:01. > :01:06.loss of traditional industries such as shipbuilding. While they have
:01:06. > :01:11.made some progress moving towards the service sector, manufacturing
:01:11. > :01:16.is 40% down on where it was in 1999. A lot of people remain dependent on
:01:16. > :01:20.welfare. Things are set to get tougher. The government is aiming
:01:20. > :01:23.to take �10 billion out of the welfare budget and two-thirds of
:01:23. > :01:27.that is made up of spending on pensioners and they are not been
:01:27. > :01:31.touched. It is another third for the cuts will hit and that includes
:01:31. > :01:35.the likes of those on incapacity benefit and the disabled. People
:01:35. > :01:40.like Henry Sherlock, registered blind and suffering from heart
:01:40. > :01:43.disease and depression who gave evidence to the committee yesterday.
:01:43. > :01:47.Been judged, it is like doing a crime and that is what it feels
:01:47. > :01:53.like. I am not a criminal. I am a human being who needs additional
:01:53. > :01:57.support. If Scotland was independent, what would happen to
:01:57. > :02:00.welfare? The work and pension secretary in Scotland today said
:02:00. > :02:04.the present arrangement in the union means that Scotland it's a
:02:04. > :02:09.good deal and independence would mean either a higher taxes are
:02:09. > :02:14.welfare cuts. A simple question, he just needs to answer because they
:02:14. > :02:17.think the Scottish people need to know. There is more spending in
:02:17. > :02:21.Scotland on welfare than in other parts of England, how were you
:02:21. > :02:25.going to cover that gap? The First Minister in London for a meeting
:02:25. > :02:28.with the Prime Minister was quick to respond. The number of people
:02:28. > :02:31.employed in Scotland is greater than in the UK as a whole. The
:02:31. > :02:35.number of people are economically inactive in Scotland is lower than
:02:35. > :02:41.the UK average. I am not sure if Iain Duncan Smyth is aware of this
:02:41. > :02:45.but perhaps he should go for he comes to Scotland again and repeats
:02:45. > :02:48.such self-evident nonsense. The SNP in says that an independent
:02:48. > :02:53.Scotland would be in a relatively good position regarding its ability
:02:53. > :02:59.to pay the welfare bill. Be savoured across the UK social
:02:59. > :03:04.protection as a percentage of total revenues was 43% in 2010 and 42% in
:03:04. > :03:09.2011. In Scotland, the Social Protection Bill was 42% in 2010 and
:03:09. > :03:12.40% in 2011. Look at the figure from another angle and there are
:03:12. > :03:17.some potential concerns, especially when you look at the figures are
:03:17. > :03:23.based on Scotland's population as a percentage of the UK currently
:03:23. > :03:27.around 8.3%. In 2011, 7.8% of housing benefit was spent in
:03:27. > :03:31.Scotland the low population share partly because of higher rental
:03:31. > :03:35.costs in London. Take disability living allowance, Scott's account
:03:35. > :03:40.for 11% of that budget and it is a similar story with incapacity
:03:40. > :03:44.benefit, 11.3% coming from north of the border. In March, Nicola
:03:44. > :03:49.Sturgeon told the SNP conference that independence would allow the
:03:49. > :03:53.Scottish government to combat poverty and maintain spending.
:03:53. > :03:57.only real independence will give us the tools that we need to rid
:03:57. > :04:02.Scotland of the poverty and deprivation that still scours our
:04:02. > :04:06.nation. What could an independent Scotland actually afford? It all
:04:06. > :04:11.depends on revenues and that is the subject of intense debate, not
:04:11. > :04:16.least because about what we get back from North Sea oil and gas.
:04:16. > :04:21.think it is very difficult to avoid welfare cups with that one of two
:04:21. > :04:25.measures. Either it will be necessary to increase taxes or
:04:25. > :04:31.alternatively to raise more taxes through greater prosperity. It can
:04:31. > :04:35.be done. If you begin with the idea that you are having a constant
:04:35. > :04:40.level of benefit that the level of benefit to be had at the moment is
:04:40. > :04:44.the right one and you want to try and protect a particular group or
:04:44. > :04:48.improve the circumstances of a particular group, then it needs to
:04:48. > :04:52.come from somewhere because you have captured the Budget. This is a
:04:52. > :04:56.complex debate but ultimately it boils down to a political argument
:04:56. > :05:00.and the question of who you believe. The uncertainty is that in places
:05:00. > :05:04.were for one reason or another welfare has become a way of life,
:05:04. > :05:08.things are set to get tougher. We could not persuade a Scottish
:05:08. > :05:11.government Minister to come on the programme but we are joined by a
:05:11. > :05:15.Eilidh Whiteford who speaks on welfare must the -- matters at
:05:15. > :05:20.Westminster. She is in Aberdeen and I am joined in the Glasgow studio
:05:20. > :05:24.by the Labour MP Willie Bain it. Thank you for joining us. Can we
:05:24. > :05:29.begin with you, Iain Duncan Smyth asked the question of the SNP which
:05:29. > :05:34.is if you want to maintain well there, you need to put taxes up or
:05:34. > :05:38.cut other services. Which is it? think the reality is that it has
:05:38. > :05:41.become very clear throughout today that welfare would be more
:05:41. > :05:44.affordable in an independent Scotland. If you look at our
:05:45. > :05:49.spending on social protection over the last five years you see clearly
:05:49. > :05:53.that we are spending and lower proportion of our revenues and a
:05:53. > :05:58.low proportion of our GDP on social protection than on the UK as a
:05:58. > :06:02.whole. I think this is a distorted debate and I just wish we to be
:06:02. > :06:07.having a serious discussion. When you talk of social protection that
:06:07. > :06:12.includes things like pensions which is a large chunk of that. If you
:06:12. > :06:17.look at benefits, when it comes to disability living Alan's and
:06:17. > :06:22.incapacity there is 11% compared to a population share of 8.3%. Some
:06:22. > :06:27.benefits are very expensive aren't they? That is true. We know we have
:06:27. > :06:31.long-term problems with health in Scotland. We have at a lower life
:06:31. > :06:35.expectancy and I do not think there is a quick solution. Interestingly,
:06:35. > :06:38.we are already seeing evidence that the smoking ban a few years ago is
:06:38. > :06:42.already having positive impacts on people's health and I think it is
:06:42. > :06:46.important that we continue to try and help people get better health
:06:46. > :06:52.so that we do not have to make unnecessary spending in those areas.
:06:52. > :06:57.At the end of the day, Scotland is contributing 9.6% of the revenues
:06:57. > :07:01.to the UK Exchequer on the basis of an 8.3% population. We are getting
:07:01. > :07:06.out of that 9.3% so we're actually putting in more than we are getting
:07:06. > :07:10.at. What were then - and will bother spending go at it that the
:07:11. > :07:15.SNP were in charge in Scotland? would not be asking disabled people
:07:15. > :07:19.to pay for a recession that has not have their own making. They think
:07:19. > :07:26.the other thing you would not see his massive Cup's to the benefits
:07:26. > :07:30.facing disabled people and working families. I think whatever
:07:30. > :07:34.political complexion of the government was in Scotland we would
:07:34. > :07:37.not be seeing are the kind of welfare cuts and the assault on
:07:37. > :07:43.disadvantaged people that we have seen over the last few months in UK
:07:43. > :07:47.government. This is a limb or hypothetical, so let us start off
:07:47. > :07:52.with some basics. Would there be a Scottish Labour Party in an
:07:52. > :07:56.independent Scotland? We are hoping to win the referendum. What would
:07:56. > :08:00.happen if Scotland was the Independent? We're hoping to win it.
:08:00. > :08:07.We will play a vital role in this got there - a Scottish government
:08:07. > :08:11.in 2016. Those who are against independence make arguments based
:08:11. > :08:16.on what would happen in Scotland were independent so that is what
:08:16. > :08:20.this discussion is about. Do you agree with the Work and Pensions
:08:20. > :08:27.Secretary that benefits would have to be cut or taxes would have to
:08:27. > :08:31.increase? Let us talk money. In Scotland we have �1,122 extra
:08:31. > :08:35.spending per head of population and the rest of the UK. That is right
:08:35. > :08:41.because we are part of the fiscal and welfare Union and that is
:08:41. > :08:45.delivered since 1999 until 2000 and make. Fiscal transfers would not
:08:45. > :08:50.have happened if we had been a separate state. That is the benefit
:08:50. > :08:54.of actually been part of the fiscal union. If we separated off and had
:08:55. > :09:02.economic model and that she wants us to follow, taking decisions on
:09:02. > :09:05.tax - maggots taxing and borrowing on a different place unfortunately,
:09:05. > :09:10.as a researcher found, it means higher government borrowing costs
:09:10. > :09:14.and that means lower spending for higher taxes. We that also mean
:09:14. > :09:18.that your constituents who, if they feel they are going to suffer as a
:09:18. > :09:22.result of the coalition's reforms, are finding that a government they
:09:22. > :09:25.did not vote for it is taking decisions that they perhaps to not
:09:26. > :09:28.approve of and therefore as they are represented as, does not make
:09:28. > :09:32.sense that you would rather those decisions were taken closer to
:09:32. > :09:36.those constituents rather than in London? What they are saying to me
:09:36. > :09:40.is trying to bring in a system of running an economy and that would
:09:40. > :09:44.be for keeps, not just for it two Partners, for keeps, that brings in
:09:45. > :09:48.the worst elements of what went wrong in the Eurozone, would be a
:09:48. > :09:57.disaster, a disaster for disabled people who rely on government for
:09:57. > :10:00.welfare. Could you respond to that? I am really disappointed, actually
:10:00. > :10:04.from Willie Bain who comes from a constituency with one of the
:10:04. > :10:07.highest unemployment rates in the whole of the UK. The best way to
:10:07. > :10:11.get people off benefits is to create job opportunities. You
:10:11. > :10:15.cannot do that if you have at a stagnating economy and you are
:10:15. > :10:19.failing to invest and stimulate that economy to create jobs. Alex
:10:19. > :10:22.Salmond was in London today and he was trying to get money for
:10:22. > :10:25.projects that the Scottish government has ready to go to
:10:25. > :10:31.stimulate the economy and create jobs. That is the fundamental way
:10:31. > :10:36.to get people off the unemployment. You disapprove of the secretary's
:10:36. > :10:41.reforms. We to reform welfare in any way? Will, I think there are
:10:41. > :10:44.lots of ways they can be reformed. For a start, the biggest problem
:10:44. > :10:51.with the welfare system up to now has been the disincentives for
:10:51. > :10:57.people who want to go back to work. That is where the secretary and I
:10:57. > :11:02.agree. I think what we have seen over the past few months, I am
:11:02. > :11:06.having it in my constituency, his people who are very manifestly not
:11:06. > :11:16.able to work, who have been categorised as fit for work but
:11:16. > :11:22.
:11:22. > :11:30.have absolutely no realistic Do you agree with that point, that
:11:30. > :11:33.reform needs to happen? Firstly we need to get people into work and
:11:33. > :11:40.under this First Minister there are 21,000 more children being brought
:11:40. > :11:44.up in a household where nobody is working. Alex Salmond might have
:11:44. > :11:50.been in London today but SNP Members of Parliament were not
:11:50. > :11:55.doing their job in the House of Commons, calling for capital
:11:55. > :12:00.spending to be brought forward. If Eilidh Whiteford, gear if us want
:12:00. > :12:05.tough decision the SNP would make on welfare. At the toughest
:12:05. > :12:08.decision is to vote for parties who would acknowledge that people need
:12:08. > :12:13.support. There is no quick or easy way to do it but unless we take
:12:13. > :12:17.those decisions we were not get anywhere. Thank you both very much
:12:17. > :12:19.for joining us. . One and in charge of enforcing
:12:19. > :12:25.Scotland's freedom of information laws sees her job as being made
:12:25. > :12:34.more difficult by the weight public services are run. --. Woman in
:12:35. > :12:42.charge. In her annual report the Information Commissioner expresses
:12:42. > :12:44.concern about so-called arm's- length organisations working for
:12:44. > :12:48.councils. The new information commissioner
:12:48. > :12:52.for Scotland echoes some of the concerns of her predecessor. She
:12:52. > :12:56.notes that more and more people are making Freedom of Information
:12:56. > :13:03.request, perhaps as a result of economic circumstances, and that
:13:03. > :13:07.public organisations have fewer and fewer resources to answer them.
:13:08. > :13:13.What's more, a rising number of appeals have been by ordinary
:13:13. > :13:17.citizens against decisions by local government. Ceases her ever-growing
:13:17. > :13:24.concern is that public services are increasingly provided by what she
:13:24. > :13:30.describes as aren't lense -- buy arms length organisations who why
:13:30. > :13:36.not subject to freedom of information law.
:13:36. > :13:46.Any of us can write to any organisation but freedom of
:13:46. > :13:49.
:13:50. > :13:54.information do so us an enforceable right. -- gives us. Joining me now
:13:54. > :13:57.from Bunt -- Dundee is Kevin Dunion, who was Scotland's freedom of
:13:57. > :14:03.information commissioner until earlier this year. One question I
:14:03. > :14:10.posed in the short film was, his freedom of information legislation
:14:10. > :14:14.failed? It has been a great success, not only the amount of information
:14:14. > :14:17.being disclosed but also the fact that many public authorities are
:14:17. > :14:21.extremely comfortable with disclosing information. I think at
:14:21. > :14:25.the police forces, which have been transformed in their culture in
:14:25. > :14:31.terms of how prepared they are to give information in Scotland. That
:14:31. > :14:35.challenge, really, is that it does demand but the authorities to
:14:35. > :14:40.invest in having freedom of information officers and record
:14:40. > :14:44.management and one of the successes of my successor is that it is clear
:14:44. > :14:48.from the statistics that a number of the appeals come and Ford are
:14:48. > :14:54.because authorities are simply not responding to Freedom of
:14:55. > :14:58.Information request atoll and really they should not be happening.
:14:58. > :15:02.Doesn't that reflect on the fact that the culture may have changed
:15:02. > :15:06.in some public authorities but not across the public sector in
:15:06. > :15:10.Scotland? It is difficult to know. One thing we can see but -- is that
:15:10. > :15:15.in the last year the number of appeals coming to the Commissioner
:15:15. > :15:20.has increased by 25 %. In the case of the Scottish government, by
:15:20. > :15:27.almost 100 %. We don't know if that is because there has been a
:15:27. > :15:31.significant spike in the number of requests or because of failings at
:15:31. > :15:37.the front line in terms of not responding appropriately. What is
:15:37. > :15:40.clear, however is, -- however, is that the public are prepared to
:15:41. > :15:48.appeal and that in about two-thirds of cases they will get some or all
:15:48. > :15:56.of the information they wanted. issue which has not yet been
:15:56. > :16:02.resolved is these arm's-length organisation so -- organisations.
:16:02. > :16:06.That is not going to change. How concerned are you about that?
:16:06. > :16:11.hope it eventually is going to change. I don't understand why the
:16:11. > :16:13.Government is dragging its feet. It says it wants to wait until that
:16:13. > :16:20.current amendment bill goes through Parliament but that should go
:16:20. > :16:25.through quite soon and it is quite an agreed bill. It is no reason to
:16:26. > :16:30.hold back designating these arms length organisations. Some 130, 140
:16:30. > :16:35.have been set up by local authorities, like the private
:16:35. > :16:37.prisons providing prison services in places like Kilmarnock, which
:16:37. > :16:43.should be in the scope of legislation. In England they are
:16:43. > :16:46.getting on with it and doing something about bringing the Law
:16:46. > :16:50.Society and the Local Government Association within the scope of the
:16:50. > :16:57.Act. For some reason the government has not been enthusiastic about
:16:58. > :17:07.getting on and addressing an agenda which is this government more
:17:08. > :17:10.
:17:10. > :17:14.secretive than past administrations at Holy Rood? I don't think it is
:17:15. > :17:19.any more secretive than its predecessors. I think one of the
:17:19. > :17:22.great mysteries that I have to confront, dealing with this
:17:22. > :17:26.Amendment Bill, is that the government in Scotland is intent on
:17:26. > :17:35.being as secretive as the UK government in terms of giving us
:17:35. > :17:40.absolute extension to the Queen and Prince Charles so any releases --
:17:40. > :17:44.anything relating to the monarch and the heir to the throne.
:17:44. > :17:48.Yesterday there was a tribunal in England with three judges which
:17:48. > :17:55.ruled that a journalist should be given information in request -- in
:17:55. > :18:01.respect of civil information requests regarding Prince Charles
:18:01. > :18:06.and they said but essentially the public interest in knowing on what
:18:06. > :18:12.issues and when Prince Charles was advocating and lobbying the
:18:12. > :18:16.government should be disclosed. That is going to be closed off if
:18:16. > :18:25.the amendment which the Scottish government is pushing him go
:18:25. > :18:31.through. Thank you for joining us. Tomorrow's front pages now. The
:18:31. > :18:35.Scotsman, ministers warning on welfare bill deficit. They herald,
:18:35. > :18:45.benefits far older Scots tearing society apart. Let's finish with a
:18:45. > :18:45.
:18:45. > :19:27.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 41 seconds
:19:27. > :19:30.musical interlude. There was plenty of September
:19:30. > :19:34.sunshine today and there will be much less tomorrow a. Quite a wet
:19:34. > :19:39.day for Northern England, southern Scotland and Northern Ireland. Just
:19:39. > :19:44.11 degrees in Newcastle. Further south temperatures are a bit higher
:19:44. > :19:48.and we will get sunshine coming through in places. It will feel
:19:48. > :19:53.reasonably pleasant when the sun comes through and the winds are
:19:53. > :20:02.fairly light. A fine afternoon across south-west England, across
:20:02. > :20:09.Wales Act -- affair bitter of cloud. North Wales prone to patchy rain. -
:20:09. > :20:17.- a fair bit of cloud. The rain is persistent across the central belt
:20:17. > :20:25.of Scotland but northern Scotland, another bright spot. Thursday, but
:20:25. > :20:29.rather cloudy, wet day for the northern parts of the UK. Southern
:20:29. > :20:34.parts, generally dry for Thursday. On Friday, the weather front that