:00:12. > :00:16.150,000 people have asked for. On Newsnight Scotland tonight:
:00:16. > :00:19.Is it a credible idea that it might be Labour voters who breathe life
:00:19. > :00:22.into the campaign for Scottish independence? The organisers of
:00:22. > :00:29.Saturday's demonstration in Edinburgh said they were proud of
:00:29. > :00:31.their broad-church approach. Also tonight:
:00:31. > :00:33.Is prejudice against gypsy travellers the last bastion of
:00:33. > :00:37.socially unacceptable attitudes? An MSPs' committee finds some
:00:37. > :00:40.uncomfortable statistical evidence. Good evening.
:00:40. > :00:43.Voters usually have to choose a political party in a fairly
:00:43. > :00:48.monolithic way. For example, if you like party A's social policies,
:00:48. > :00:54.you're going to be voting for their economic ideas too. But with a
:00:54. > :00:56.referendum issue, it's different. Opinion polls in recent years have
:00:56. > :00:59.often suggested that SNP voting preference is well ahead of support
:00:59. > :01:02.for independence, but now the idea's emerging that some people
:01:02. > :01:04.who support the Labour Party might be quite keen on the idea of
:01:04. > :01:06.Scottish independence. David Allison went to Saturday's
:01:06. > :01:16.demonstration in Edinburgh to search for the Labour Vote Yes
:01:16. > :01:20.campaign. Across the meadows and the capital,
:01:21. > :01:27.something different was growing. But what? In among this pro-
:01:27. > :01:30.independence rally, there was what you would expect in terms of
:01:30. > :01:35.affiliation, banners, and dress sense. But there was also something
:01:35. > :01:38.new and out of the ordinary. A group called Labour for Scottish
:01:38. > :01:43.independence. So, Labour for independence. What
:01:43. > :01:47.is going on? Is it some kind of double allegiance? Or is it some
:01:47. > :01:50.kind of nationalist front pretending to be Labour? They
:01:50. > :01:54.insist they are exactly what they say they are. Labour people in
:01:54. > :02:01.favour of independence. The a claim to have 1,000 members
:02:01. > :02:06.and their Facebook site has 1,000 likes. Are you a Labour person or
:02:06. > :02:10.you want to say you are? It is amazing the number of times I
:02:10. > :02:17.have heard this. I'm a Labour Party member, and have been for 10 years.
:02:17. > :02:20.I have supported Labour all my life. We disagree with the policy of the
:02:20. > :02:27.better to get the campaign. I believe Scothern would be better as
:02:27. > :02:32.an independent country. The marchers set off for the rally
:02:32. > :02:39.while many were unaware of who had joined their ranks. How do veterans
:02:39. > :02:45.feel about these Johnny-come-lately These are the arch enemy, anyway. I
:02:46. > :02:49.think we are entering a new political... A new political time
:02:50. > :02:55.in Scotland. It is all going to change. Everybody is going to be
:02:55. > :03:02.looking at it with their own eyes. Maybe the old Left have the right
:03:02. > :03:06.thing might disappear. - left-right thing.
:03:06. > :03:10.For those in favour of independence, the polls are still a long way off.
:03:10. > :03:14.But depending on how we vote in two years, Scotland could be said for a
:03:14. > :03:19.political earthquake. Some people see this as the start
:03:19. > :03:22.of something new, a sort of independence politics.
:03:22. > :03:28.Labour Party members were not the only ones coming from a different
:03:28. > :03:33.point of view and the way down to the rally. But a skirmish over a
:03:33. > :03:36.Union Jack showed there were limits over who was welcome and he was not.
:03:36. > :03:41.Speaking of being welcome, what about Labour for independence and
:03:41. > :03:46.the Labour Party? They must think you are about as
:03:46. > :03:51.welcome as a fart in a spacesuit! We have not officially heard
:03:51. > :03:56.anything from the Labour Party. Despite the support we have been
:03:56. > :04:06.getting from social media, public opinion is that it is not a large
:04:06. > :04:08.
:04:08. > :04:15.majority of people. But there our discussions.
:04:15. > :04:19.So, as Alex Salmond, who is to do it himself as trek, rallied the
:04:19. > :04:26.crowd, would be the higher echelons of the SNP make of having in a band
:04:26. > :04:29.-- Labour for independence on board? It is not just the SNP. Them
:04:29. > :04:32.up for our people from all political parties and no political
:04:32. > :04:36.parties. Significantly, a contingent of Labour supporters who
:04:36. > :04:41.think the best picture Oscar and his independence, where the can
:04:41. > :04:45.take our own positions. In a way, they are the enemy. How
:04:45. > :04:51.are you about having them on board? It is about more than party
:04:51. > :04:55.politics. I welcome everybody and anybody to this campaign.
:04:55. > :05:01.I realise that many of you are proud to call yourself
:05:01. > :05:06.nationalists... This is a former Labour MP and MSP.
:05:06. > :05:14.So, as Alice prepared his be, perhaps the crowd was prepared for
:05:14. > :05:20.the concert of labour for independence. -- Alex.
:05:20. > :05:24.If it is any consolation, I think everybody is wondering why we are
:05:24. > :05:29.here. Is it like passing the rubric on
:05:29. > :05:35.for you, doing that speech? -- Ruby Khan.
:05:35. > :05:38.I'm happy to speak to so many people. What we need to do now is
:05:38. > :05:48.get the message across further. This is not about breaking up the
:05:48. > :05:51.
:05:51. > :05:56.Labour Party. I just want an honest, Clearly, Labour for independence is
:05:56. > :06:03.hardly on-message for the Labour Party. But with the SNP keen to get
:06:03. > :06:08.a devolution Max selection on the ballot box, constitutional things
:06:08. > :06:11.are getting fuzzy around the edges. I'm joined now from Edinburgh by
:06:11. > :06:14.Simon Pia, journalist and until recently a Scottish Labour spin
:06:14. > :06:17.doctor who served three party leaders. And here in Glasgow, Jean
:06:17. > :06:26.Freeman, formerly a special adviser to Labour First Minister Jack
:06:26. > :06:28.McConnell, now a founding member of Scottish Women for Independence.
:06:28. > :06:33.Have you always been independence minded?
:06:33. > :06:38.No, I haven't. I have been a Labour voter for most of my adult life. I
:06:38. > :06:43.did not believe that we needed independence. But actually, what
:06:43. > :06:47.has changed my mind is the experience of devolution. I have
:06:47. > :06:52.seen what in Scotland we can choose to do that goes with the grain of
:06:52. > :06:57.who we are in Scotland, and now, what I want is the opportunity to
:06:57. > :07:02.have all the powers that a nation should have to make the decisions
:07:02. > :07:06.for our future, for our children's future, and the thing I think about
:07:06. > :07:10.the Yes Scotland campaign which is so good is that it's beyond party
:07:10. > :07:15.politics and is about ambition and hope. That is what I am four.
:07:15. > :07:21.And your experience in government as a specialist adviser, did that
:07:21. > :07:24.shape your view? I think it gave me confidence that in Scotland, we can
:07:24. > :07:30.make decisions for ourselves. We can be accountable for those
:07:30. > :07:33.decisions. We can make the right choices. It convinced me, by seeing
:07:33. > :07:37.what we can do in education, what we can do in health, that we can
:07:37. > :07:42.also make those decisions on the economy.
:07:42. > :07:45.Does that persuade you? I think working in government can
:07:45. > :07:52.twist your views. I don't think that applies to her in particular.
:07:52. > :07:56.I actually think, I don't want to sound rude or dismissive, but I
:07:56. > :08:03.think it is a fairly insignificant movement or section of the Labour
:08:03. > :08:08.Party. What it does reflect, there's no getting away from people
:08:09. > :08:16.like Jean who went away from the party, but there's a vacuum there.
:08:16. > :08:21.I have been urging Labour to fill that, about what the other to offer
:08:21. > :08:27.us a vision for Scotland in the 21st century. Labour has had a
:08:27. > :08:31.stasis and it has not adjusted to whether or not we are going to move
:08:31. > :08:38.forward and have more devolution. But Scottish home rule is as old as
:08:38. > :08:42.the Labour Party itself. Go back to 1901, it was in our manifesto in
:08:42. > :08:45.1945, and I think there's a lot of common ground in politics in
:08:45. > :08:55.Scotland and many areas. People like Jean and I could sit around a
:08:55. > :08:58.
:08:58. > :09:04.Is there anything that would persuade you to vote yes?
:09:04. > :09:10.Ultimately, I think we are better together because I still feel a
:09:10. > :09:13.Solidarity with people in the labour movement and what they have
:09:13. > :09:19.achieved throughout in Manchester, London, Wales, where every you want
:09:19. > :09:26.to go. I still think these are the strongest points about what my
:09:26. > :09:34.politics are. What independence is getting offered to us by the SNP is
:09:34. > :09:37.very unclear. The monetary union seems to be a remaining thing. The
:09:37. > :09:43.monarchy... I do not think there is a clear enough alternative that
:09:43. > :09:48.life would be that different. need to give Jean Freeman a chance
:09:48. > :09:52.to come in at this point. There will be people in the Labour Party
:09:52. > :09:58.that share that view. Simon says people in favour of independence
:09:58. > :10:02.and who vote Labour are the minority. A I am not sure I agree.
:10:02. > :10:05.There is a big difference in the number of Labour Party members and
:10:05. > :10:10.voters who would be willing, at this early stage, to join that
:10:10. > :10:14.rally and the number of people who are Labour Party supporters who
:10:14. > :10:19.feel the party has disconnected from them. I agree with Simon in
:10:19. > :10:24.many ways. The Labour Party did not think beyond a Scottish Parliament,
:10:24. > :10:29.did not think beyond devolution, even though Donald Dewar said it is
:10:29. > :10:35.a process, not an end in itself. The problem is, all the Labour
:10:35. > :10:40.Party is offering at the moment is vote no and we will see. That is
:10:40. > :10:45.not good enough. Scotland is an ambitious, creative, till --
:10:46. > :10:51.talented country and we want to make our own decision as. Simon,
:10:51. > :10:57.the leader in Scotland is making a speech on the future direction of
:10:57. > :11:03.the party tomorrow. What do you want her to say? I have always been
:11:03. > :11:08.a bit of a federalist. I think she will identified areas in which we
:11:08. > :11:14.will move forward. Why do not know the specifics of what she will say.
:11:14. > :11:20.-- I do not know. I think we should try and find out what people really
:11:20. > :11:24.want. People do not want separation. We live in an integrated society
:11:24. > :11:29.throughout the UK. People should appreciate that a lot more. People
:11:29. > :11:39.should not be so negative about being part of the union. Separation,
:11:39. > :11:40.
:11:40. > :11:43.or independence, is not an answer to the problems. Thank you.
:11:43. > :11:46.Here are some statistics that might surprise you. Did you know two-
:11:46. > :11:49.thirds of people would be unhappy if a member of their family formed
:11:49. > :11:52.a relationship with a gypsy traveller? And how about this?
:11:52. > :11:54.Nearly a quarter of people thought travellers were unsuited to be
:11:54. > :11:57.primary school teachers. Those survey findings found their way
:11:57. > :12:00.into a Holyrood committee report into the treatment of travellers in
:12:00. > :12:03.modern Scotland. But most alarming for committee members were reports
:12:03. > :12:13.of families being turned away from GP and dentist surgeries in what is
:12:13. > :12:19.
:12:19. > :12:26.supposed to be a free and universal healthcare system.
:12:26. > :12:32.Gypsy traveller up brother and sisters this morning. Nobody is
:12:32. > :12:38.quite sure how many travellers they are in Scotland. One estimate says
:12:38. > :12:43.1,500. Another says 15,000. That is if you include those who live in
:12:43. > :12:47.houses. How could you be in trouble if you live in a house? The Equal
:12:47. > :12:52.Opportunities Committee considers gypsy traveller has to be a
:12:52. > :12:57.distinct ethnic group. Whether they consider a caravan or a cottage as
:12:57. > :13:02.home. However defined, attitudes to this community have shocked
:13:02. > :13:08.committee members. When it comes to access to health care, they are
:13:08. > :13:13.angry. It should be universal, they say, but it is not. Back in
:13:13. > :13:23.Montrose, the father of these children recognises the picture
:13:23. > :13:28.MSPs paint. They say, you're not part of the community. It is our
:13:28. > :13:34.culture. They should realise that. Scottish, Irish, Welsh travellers,
:13:34. > :13:42.it does not matter who you are, they must recognise traveller Purim
:13:42. > :13:46.a by now. They should help us. -- travellers are by now. This is not
:13:46. > :13:52.even the first or second time parliament has looked at this
:13:52. > :13:58.problem in recent years. We first looked at it in 2001. It was a
:13:58. > :14:02.broad inquiry at the time. The thing that came across more than
:14:02. > :14:08.anything was through all the inquiries no progress had been made.
:14:08. > :14:14.It was almost as if it was a futile exercise. For government says it is
:14:14. > :14:19.up to local NHS boards to ensure people recognise cultural diversity
:14:19. > :14:25.and they should be no barriers to travellers. But a gypsy travellers
:14:25. > :14:29.remain a community unwanted and unloved by many other Scottish
:14:29. > :14:34.communities. As long as attitudes to them remain as negative as they
:14:34. > :14:42.appear to be, it is hard to imagine their lot improving as quickly as
:14:42. > :14:47.the committee might like. Annabel Goldie is here. She served on the
:14:47. > :14:51.committee that throughout their investigation. How would you feel
:14:51. > :14:57.if a traveller community moved in to an area near where you live?
:14:57. > :15:01.Would you welcome them? I think if the traveller community was
:15:01. > :15:06.behaving responsibly and wanted to respect the rights of other members
:15:06. > :15:11.in that committee, there is no issue. What the report if exemplify
:15:11. > :15:15.his and represents other profound concerns which the Equal
:15:16. > :15:20.Opportunities Committee had on the evidence we got. I just want to
:15:20. > :15:27.test your own views on one of the other areas. What about if somebody
:15:27. > :15:31.in your family was dating a member of the gypsy traveller community?
:15:31. > :15:35.would welcome them to my family. I am in a fortunate position. As a
:15:35. > :15:42.young person, I grew up in the country where the annual visit by
:15:42. > :15:47.travellers was a welcome part of the seasonal time. They helped the
:15:47. > :15:57.farming community, they were part of my mother local country life.
:15:57. > :15:58.
:15:58. > :16:05.it seems your view it is a minority view. -- part of my map local
:16:05. > :16:09.country life. The report lists a lid on a mixture of things that
:16:09. > :16:13.have not been happening that should have been happening. Issues of
:16:13. > :16:19.prejudice which are there that many people thought had disappeared and
:16:19. > :16:24.were outdated. Perhaps, most importantly, we need to recognise
:16:24. > :16:28.gypsy travellers and their community is a respectable every
:16:28. > :16:34.minority grouping. It is entitled to the same protection as any other
:16:34. > :16:38.group. It does not seem to enjoy that. Changing attitudes is
:16:38. > :16:42.difficult. In terms of public services like the NHS, can the
:16:42. > :16:47.Government to do something concrete to ensure equal access Questor rock
:16:47. > :16:54.the Scottish government has been co-operative. -- to ensure equal
:16:55. > :17:00.access? The committee has said if we discover there are inadequate
:17:00. > :17:04.services, patchy provision of GP services, for example, patchy
:17:05. > :17:09.provision of quality services from local authorities, we think the
:17:09. > :17:13.Scottish government can give a strategic lead and start saying to
:17:13. > :17:19.these agencies, have you got standard practice is in place to
:17:20. > :17:24.understand the culture? There must be heightened awareness of that
:17:24. > :17:31.culture. Thank you. A quick look at culture. Thank you. A quick look at