:00:09. > :00:13.and we are told fully signed toupt Tonight, on Newsnight Scotland, the
:00:13. > :00:15.end of the "something for nothing" political culture?
:00:15. > :00:20.Labour leader, Johann Lamont, questions free tuition fees, free
:00:20. > :00:26.prescriptions and the council tax freeze.
:00:26. > :00:29.We'll ask her if this is the way to win back the voters.
:00:29. > :00:33.And, the Head of the new National Police Force has been appointed.
:00:33. > :00:37.So, what are the challenges that face Stephen House?
:00:37. > :00:40.Good evening. All public services must be paid
:00:40. > :00:43.for somehow, but whether they are free at the point of use, charged
:00:43. > :00:50.for or means tested is always politically controversial.
:00:50. > :00:52.Today, Johann Lamont suggested some of us are getting too much for free.
:00:52. > :00:58.She questioned whether tuition fees, personal care, prescription charges
:00:58. > :01:00.and pensioner bus passes should be paid out of general taxation.
:01:00. > :01:03.Whatever the principle of targeting resources, is the political reality
:01:03. > :01:13.that the only people getting a freebie out of this are the SNP?
:01:13. > :01:16.
:01:16. > :01:19.Here's Jamie McIvor. Free prescriptions for all. Free
:01:20. > :01:23.university tuition. The rock also melt with the sun before I allow
:01:23. > :01:29.tuition fees to be imposed on Scottish students. Free personal
:01:29. > :01:33.care for the elderly. All those, plus a whole host of other popular
:01:33. > :01:38.policies still delivered while public finances are under huge
:01:38. > :01:42.pressure. Now, Labour is set to consider other policies like this
:01:43. > :01:49.and whether they are really affordable. What I'm calling time
:01:49. > :01:53.on today is the dishonest option on what we can do. I'm withdrawing
:01:53. > :01:58.from the game where politicians look, not at needs, but at slogans
:01:58. > :02:07.and ask, not how to improve the lot of the Scottish people, what can we
:02:07. > :02:12.bribe them with by claiming it is free? Are free services for
:02:12. > :02:17.everyone handouts for the affluent or the embass arment of means
:02:17. > :02:20.testing? We have a confused view about what services should be free,
:02:20. > :02:25.what facilities should be free and what we should charge for those
:02:25. > :02:29.that we do charge for. If you look at the example I give, local
:02:29. > :02:33.authorities, where we assume, through law, that library services
:02:33. > :02:36.or some of them should be free, that sports facilities should be
:02:36. > :02:39.charged for and that leisure facilities like theatres and so on
:02:39. > :02:46.should be charged for, it's a mess. We haven't had the discussion about
:02:46. > :02:51.it that we need. The introduction of free prescriptions for all
:02:51. > :02:54.wasn't without controversy. Supporters argue it may save money,
:02:54. > :03:02.both on bureaucracy and helping prevent serious medical conditions.
:03:02. > :03:07.Should the wider debate be focused purely on whether a free service
:03:07. > :03:11.actually saves cashover all not about a policy's popularity?
:03:11. > :03:15.the discussion is focused on free personal care for older people.
:03:15. > :03:19.Free bus passes. Bridge tolls as those were the only things one
:03:19. > :03:24.should look at. I think we should look at a wider range of services
:03:24. > :03:28.and facilities and try and come to some kind of sense of which do we
:03:28. > :03:31.think should be free for a lot of good reasons that go beyond just,
:03:31. > :03:38.oh, that would be nice, but in terms of their ability to save
:03:38. > :03:42.money in the longer term. Still, there is no doubt some universal
:03:42. > :03:47.benefits are popular. Free bus travel for older people can be a
:03:47. > :03:51.liberation. Is it the best use of scarce resources? I reckon it's
:03:51. > :03:57.part of our overall confusion about what we make free in terms of
:03:57. > :04:03.public services and what we charge for. I have the advantage of having
:04:03. > :04:07.free bus travel. Of having received a cheque for �200 for winter fuel
:04:07. > :04:11.allowance. The moment I turn 60. I don't think that is appropriate. I
:04:11. > :04:14.think that should be taken into account in terms of the level of
:04:14. > :04:18.taxation I pay. There is a straight-forward political
:04:18. > :04:24.challenge here too. We probable won't know Labour's conclusions
:04:24. > :04:27.this side of the independence referendum. Might that help the SNP
:04:27. > :04:33.to portray opponents of independence as supporters of cuts
:04:33. > :04:42.and charges? Of course, Labour is also fighting to regain power at
:04:42. > :04:46.Holyrood in 2016. Going into an election telling voters they will
:04:46. > :04:52.have to pay for something that is currently free could prove a high-
:04:52. > :04:57.risk strategy. The Scottish Labour Leader, Johann
:04:57. > :05:02.Lamont, is with me now. If we look at some of the statements today in
:05:02. > :05:06.your speech today. You said "if we wish to continue with some poll
:05:06. > :05:13.sisz there will have to be increased taxation, direct charges
:05:13. > :05:20.or cuts elsewhere." That is the basic premise? It's true that the
:05:20. > :05:24.report commissioned by the SNP and Campbell Christy's report focused
:05:24. > :05:27.on the issue of affordability. Free services are desirable, but are
:05:27. > :05:32.they affordable? The simple point was made, in tough times would it
:05:32. > :05:35.be fair for those who can afford it to pay more in order we can direct
:05:35. > :05:40.resources towards those who need them most? I want an honest debate
:05:40. > :05:46.around that. I think that is something across the political
:05:46. > :05:53.spectrum, referring to what the professor said, I hope people will
:05:53. > :05:58.get engaged in. Will you review free personal care for the elderly?
:05:58. > :06:03.There is a series of policy -- choices the SNP have made. We need
:06:03. > :06:07.to look at these and the consequences of them. The council
:06:08. > :06:13.tax freeze, your reporter said it that you have cut in services or
:06:13. > :06:17.what the SNP have? We have cuts in our services. I met with
:06:17. > :06:22.careworkers who talked about their conditions, 15 minutes to visit
:06:22. > :06:25.somebody. Focus on task and back out the door. That isn't support
:06:25. > :06:29.for elderly. School secretaries are telling me how they are managing
:06:29. > :06:36.budgets. Young people who are teachers are concerned about not
:06:36. > :06:40.having a job. These cuts are happening now. I want an honest
:06:40. > :06:44.debate which says in tough economic times when there is austerity
:06:44. > :06:48.should we look at these services and look are they
:06:48. > :06:52.disproportionately benefiting those who are better off. Nothing is off
:06:52. > :06:56.the table. The test is, you know, is it affordable? What are the
:06:56. > :07:00.benefits of it? What are the opportunities that are lost? For
:07:00. > :07:07.example, on prescriptions, we are giving away free prescriptions, we
:07:07. > :07:13.are park of the United Kingdom where we have least access to San
:07:13. > :07:18.ker drugs. We have fewer nurses than we had three years ago.
:07:18. > :07:24.the avoidance of doubt let's clarify some of the issues you will
:07:24. > :07:27.look at. You will review free personal care for the elderly?
:07:27. > :07:30.of people wouldn't be able to afford it anyway. There is a
:07:31. > :07:33.concern that the care that people pay for, currently the charges are
:07:34. > :07:37.going up, older people are concerned about. That I have
:07:37. > :07:40.already made the point about the quality of the care. My basic
:07:40. > :07:46.premise, is in all of these questions you test them, you test
:07:46. > :07:49.them against the evidence. It feels to me currently that free personal
:07:50. > :07:53.care looks as if you wouldn't get benefit from getting rid of. It you
:07:53. > :07:56.have to test it against the evidence. That is what I'm asking
:07:56. > :08:01.for. Are you suggesting it's not affordable in it is current form
:08:01. > :08:04.and some people should pay more? The kind of care that people are
:08:04. > :08:08.getting is unacceptable. If you listen to what careworkers are
:08:08. > :08:12.saying. It isn't working. We put more public money into that or we
:08:12. > :08:17.means test it? You make the choice. You make the choice. You look at it
:08:17. > :08:22.and decide what the benefits of it. Are we going to fund it. If we fund
:08:22. > :08:26.that what else has to go? Is there a consensus in the country about
:08:26. > :08:31.how much taxation we pay? What the SNP tell us, it's possible to have
:08:31. > :08:36.high quality services, free services, with low-taxation. Alex
:08:36. > :08:40.Salmond himself constantly talk abouts cutting taxes. In
:08:40. > :08:44.Scandinavia, where you have high quality services you have a funding
:08:44. > :08:47.package that goes with that. I want to engage with that in a serious
:08:47. > :08:50.and difficult political debate on how to fund these things. There are
:08:50. > :08:54.multiple options here. They are difficult questions. If we could
:08:54. > :08:59.progress through some of the ideas to confirm what you are looking at
:08:59. > :09:03.before we get into the ideas. to clarify what is underpinning
:09:03. > :09:06.this is the assertion the SNP make that we are living tpwh this
:09:06. > :09:13.perfect world and the reality on the ground is very different from.
:09:13. > :09:17.That I want the debate... I think that point has been made. If we can
:09:17. > :09:22.be quite clear. You will look at free personal care for the elder
:09:22. > :09:27.with the prospect of some people having to pay for that more? Is
:09:27. > :09:30.there any merit in the suggestion that went into the coalition
:09:31. > :09:33.government that should be some contribution of no more than
:09:33. > :09:43.�35,000 per person for free personal care, is that an area you
:09:43. > :09:50.will look at? Will you consider all We are clear about the benefits.
:09:50. > :09:55.But I am concerned it is not properly funded. There is a grave
:09:55. > :09:58.concern that that what is happening is a transfer of resources from
:09:58. > :10:03.further education to higher education. These things may be good
:10:03. > :10:08.in themselves but they have to be delivered in a way that... We are
:10:08. > :10:14.looking at university fees and how we fund aspiration for young people
:10:14. > :10:19.to make sure they get a good start. It is about further education and
:10:19. > :10:24.higher education. What we have seen in the SNP is an inability to
:10:24. > :10:29.direct that tough debate towards dogma what they have done is to
:10:29. > :10:33.erect resources from one to the other. What you are looking at is
:10:33. > :10:40.free personal care for the elderly, potentially introducing tuition
:10:40. > :10:45.fees. I did not say that. I said we need to look at the consequences.
:10:46. > :10:52.The current funding decisions made by the Education Secretary...
:10:52. > :10:59.critical. You must know the potential options. I am not be a
:10:59. > :11:03.fan of tuition fees but there is a funding issue. We know the
:11:03. > :11:07.universities are concerned. We know the further education sector are
:11:07. > :11:14.concerned about cuts to their sector. The First Minister just
:11:14. > :11:23.says, that is not true. Would you put in end to the council tax fees?
:11:24. > :11:28.We have said it is underfunded. -- tax freeze. There is a consequence
:11:28. > :11:33.of huge pressures at a local level. The freeze is be imposed by the
:11:33. > :11:37.Scottish government. You would put more money into subsidising the
:11:37. > :11:42.freeze or in the? We have made a commitment to redress the funding
:11:42. > :11:46.of local government. The SNP are expecting the council tax to wither,
:11:47. > :11:50.they are not funded the fees, beating the gap and they are not
:11:50. > :11:56.proposing another option. We know people do not accept council tax,
:11:56. > :12:03.it is a popular. But there is no alternative from the SNP. If what
:12:03. > :12:11.is your alternative? We are looking in more detail at the alternative.
:12:11. > :12:18.It could be about proving the fairness of council tax. It is a
:12:18. > :12:23.very hard question. I appreciate how difficult this is. But you
:12:23. > :12:27.cannot do what they are doing, just imposing a council tax freeze, not
:12:27. > :12:37.funding it and not looking at alternatives. They are going into
:12:37. > :12:47.the courts... One the alternative would be to stop the freeze. For we
:12:47. > :12:51.
:12:51. > :12:55.have to look at the consequences. You are arguing you know the
:12:55. > :13:02.consequences. I am reflecting on something serious that I have to
:13:02. > :13:06.deal with in the people being responsible for what they are
:13:06. > :13:11.saying. Families are having to catch up. That is not sustainable
:13:11. > :13:15.over time. It is unacceptable to impose a freeze on local
:13:15. > :13:19.authorities, denied them funding her and then take no responsibility
:13:19. > :13:24.for the consequences. You spoke about taxation and the potential
:13:24. > :13:30.for increasing revenue. How much room is there for increasing
:13:30. > :13:35.taxation? The that is at the debate we have to get into. In 2011, we
:13:35. > :13:40.lost the argument on taxation. Council tax is not popular. In
:13:40. > :13:45.tough economic times, people do not want to pay more tax. I understand
:13:45. > :13:50.that. The equation remains the same. The high quality services cannot be
:13:50. > :13:57.funded with the money. That is a huge challenge. This is genuinely
:13:57. > :14:01.where I want to be wet the SNP were in 2010 in asking some of these
:14:01. > :14:06.questions. I want to get to a place where this people of Scotland can
:14:06. > :14:11.have an argument about whether choice falls between taxation and
:14:11. > :14:18.services. Is the lack sufficient for the freedom you would like in
:14:18. > :14:25.raising taxes? We are going to it and -- another place altogether. I
:14:25. > :14:31.have said within the budget, there are active choices. What we had
:14:31. > :14:35.today from the SNP is the choices are over there and they have not to
:14:35. > :14:40.be questioned at we are not to look at the consequences. They are
:14:40. > :14:43.saying we will deal with the rest of the Budget. In my view, it is a
:14:43. > :14:48.Budget that does not address the question of the economy, employment
:14:48. > :14:52.and education. If you just look at specific proposals you might bring
:14:52. > :14:57.forward, will the details of these proposals be available to the
:14:57. > :15:03.public for them to assess before any vote on independence? We will
:15:03. > :15:09.bring the these proposals forward as early as possible. Before the
:15:09. > :15:14.referendum? What is curious is the SNP do not want to act on their own
:15:14. > :15:19.report ahead of the referendum. Whatever we do, whether it is on
:15:19. > :15:24.the constitution, we have to be honest. You will go to the
:15:24. > :15:30.electorate before the vote to say these are the details? A I am keen
:15:30. > :15:38.to go beyond the party-political squabbling. We will do Roy Burke
:15:38. > :15:42.pop. But there is a broader debate in the package. -- we will do our
:15:42. > :15:47.part. We need good demands on all sides and how to make choices among
:15:47. > :15:51.them. You would not expect me after I lost an election if to sort this
:15:51. > :15:58.all out myself a comeback with a package. I want a dialogue and I
:15:58. > :16:02.want to the SNP to live up to their own aspirations with how we deal
:16:02. > :16:07.with providing high quality services. What is not credible is
:16:07. > :16:11.for them to say we have austerity cuts from the UK Government which I
:16:11. > :16:15.have condemned, a smaller budget and somehow these services must
:16:15. > :16:18.remain unquestioned. Thank you. The first Chief Constable of the new
:16:18. > :16:21.police service of Scotland will be Stephen House. Mr House is
:16:21. > :16:24.currently Chief Constable of strathclyde - one of eight forces
:16:24. > :16:33.which merge next April. He moves to this new post within the next few
:16:33. > :16:39.weeks. Stephen House says his priority
:16:39. > :16:44.will be to make the people of Scotland safe. Walker we expect? He
:16:44. > :16:48.spent five years as Chief Constable at Strathclyde. High on his agenda
:16:48. > :16:53.was the West of Scotland curse of gang violence and knife crime. He
:16:53. > :17:01.was committed to other things, too. It is time to think again. We need
:17:01. > :17:05.to start again. No sensible person would have eight police forces in
:17:05. > :17:09.Scotland. He supports the government of up plans for minimum
:17:09. > :17:14.pricing on alcohol. People will spill out onto the street and then
:17:14. > :17:17.have clashes with the neighbours. That leads to violence. It can be
:17:17. > :17:22.within the house itself because people have been drinking for so
:17:22. > :17:30.long. The violence levels go up and up and weapons come up to hand and
:17:30. > :17:35.people get stabbed and can dive. Like supporting anti- sectarian
:17:35. > :17:41.issues. We have got an agreement that police officers will give
:17:42. > :17:45.briefings to players ahead of the matches so that ticks one box.
:17:45. > :17:48.is a high profile, politically sensitive road and that Stephen
:17:48. > :17:51.House will go public on his approach tomorrow.
:17:52. > :17:54.I'm joined by Dr Kenneth Scott, who is director of the Centre for
:17:55. > :18:03.Criminal Justice and Police Studies at the University of the West of
:18:03. > :18:09.Scotland. I do you surprised by the appointment? Not at all. I do not
:18:09. > :18:13.think many people will be surprised. Stephen House has all along been at
:18:13. > :18:18.one of the biggest supporters of a single force. He comes from the
:18:18. > :18:24.largest force in Scotland so a step from Strathclyde that covers half
:18:24. > :18:28.of the country, over 60% of the cried in the country had to a
:18:29. > :18:35.national force is not that surprising. It is not that popular
:18:35. > :18:39.with it the other forces? No. There was quite a debate at the time of
:18:39. > :18:43.the idea of a national force had their array number of Chief
:18:43. > :18:46.Constables and a number of areas in the country that are not
:18:47. > :18:52.particularly happy about a single force. They feel it will take away
:18:52. > :18:57.a lot of the local element and policing -- in policing. One of the
:18:57. > :19:02.problems Stephen House has his it confirms the view this will be a
:19:02. > :19:07.force that is focused on the central belt. What are the big
:19:07. > :19:12.challenges? They first one is to get it up and running of the 1st
:19:12. > :19:19.April next year. In a way, that restores public confidence. There
:19:19. > :19:24.is work going on to do with that. It will only need some a major
:19:24. > :19:29.problem on the day for those people who have said this is a mistake to
:19:29. > :19:34.say we have been proved right. There is a lot of work to be done
:19:34. > :19:39.that just to make sure there is a seamless transition. The other big
:19:39. > :19:45.problem, of course, which will have to be faced is the main government
:19:45. > :19:51.argument for a single police force is to save money. And so there will
:19:51. > :19:55.be major issues of how to fit within it are quite stringent
:19:55. > :20:01.budget commitments that have been given about how much cost will be
:20:01. > :20:07.reduced by having a single force. What do you think in terms of
:20:07. > :20:11.Stephen House's record? Local accountability, he says, is very
:20:11. > :20:17.important. What do you think we can read from what if he has championed
:20:17. > :20:22.in the past? I think he hit for a lot of the buttons that go down
:20:22. > :20:26.well with the public. One of the steps he took was to reduce the
:20:26. > :20:30.number of superintendant ranks and put resources into the front line.
:20:30. > :20:35.Obviously, one of the big things the people of Scotland want from
:20:35. > :20:43.the force is good, effective local policing, a policeman on the front
:20:43. > :20:47.line. I think that strike a chord. One of the interesting challenges
:20:47. > :20:53.his crime rates in Scotland are very low. The Ardennes in
:20:53. > :20:59.Strathclyde. One of the features of Strathclyde has been a reduction in
:20:59. > :21:05.the crimes of violence. -- they are very low in Strathclyde. The
:21:05. > :21:12.challenge is how to sustain that. And how to sustain it over the
:21:12. > :21:16.whole country with all that variation you have. There may be
:21:16. > :21:20.different policing all cultures within Scotland. Will it be
:21:20. > :21:26.impossible it would be someone from outside to would be in charge of
:21:26. > :21:34.this single false? I don't think it was impossible. -- single false. I
:21:34. > :21:39.think it had to be someone who had a background in Scottish policing.
:21:39. > :21:48.I think the probability was someone who had a good track record in the
:21:48. > :21:52.largest force was going to be... are almost out of time. The hall
:21:52. > :21:56.politicisation has been controversial. That is something
:21:56. > :22:02.that will have to be looked up. The Scottish government has been
:22:02. > :22:08.careful but it is only the start of the process and we do not know
:22:08. > :22:17.where this will go. Thank you. A quick look at tomorrow's papers.