:00:19. > :00:24.don't know when the crisis sense. - We get his thoughts on free
:00:24. > :00:31.universal benefits and whether the sums add up. And the campaign to
:00:31. > :00:35.recognise these pioneers of women's education, 140 years on why women
:00:35. > :00:37.are still under-represented in science, engineering and technology.
:00:37. > :00:41.Good evening. Another First Minister's Question Time, another
:00:41. > :00:44.barney. And, like last week, it was sparked by the debate initiated by
:00:44. > :00:47.Labour over the provision of free universal benefits. Well, tonight
:00:47. > :00:50.I've been getting the thoughts about that and other matters of
:00:50. > :00:55.Robert Black - the man who for 12 years scrutinised public sector
:00:55. > :01:05.finances in his job as Auditor General. But first, a flavour of
:01:05. > :01:07.
:01:07. > :01:12.today's FMQs. He has already brought in to �0.7 billion worth of
:01:12. > :01:17.cuts. The poor, the vulnerable and hard-working families in this
:01:17. > :01:22.country have noticed, they have noticed, the pensioner who needs
:01:22. > :01:27.help to wash and dress and to feed themselves, suffering the indignity
:01:27. > :01:32.of 15 minutes can visit in a day. The family paying more for
:01:32. > :01:37.childcare than their mortgage, the 18,000 Scots denied a place at
:01:37. > :01:43.college. One of the thousands of working-class students who have had
:01:43. > :01:48.bursaries cut by �900 the year. is correct to say the Scottish
:01:48. > :01:53.budget is under attack from Westminster. It was under severe
:01:53. > :01:58.attack from the last Labour government as well. But the
:01:58. > :02:04.solution to that facts cannot be surely abandoning concessionary
:02:04. > :02:10.fares or free prescriptions or free personal affairs, free personal
:02:10. > :02:13.care or retreating tuition fees or abandoning the council tax fees.
:02:13. > :02:17.How will working families the benefited from adopting the
:02:17. > :02:21.policies the Tory party have adopted south of the border? A few
:02:21. > :02:24.hours after that, I sat down with Robert Black, who retired just a
:02:24. > :02:27.few months ago as Auditor General for Scotland. It was his job to
:02:27. > :02:35.scrutinise how the public sector was spending your money. And he
:02:35. > :02:39.started by telling me how things changed over his time in charge.
:02:39. > :02:44.Well, I have been Auditor-General for over 12 years and for most of
:02:44. > :02:48.that period we had growth of 5% a year every year. That allowed lots
:02:48. > :02:52.of improvements to brought into Scottish public services and couple
:02:52. > :02:58.of years ago we passed the tipping point and over the next the years
:02:58. > :03:02.we will be taking out of 0.5% out of the budgets. Given most of the
:03:02. > :03:07.personal services are driven by stopping cost, teaching numbers and
:03:07. > :03:13.policing members, it's a lot of money to take out. There will take
:03:13. > :03:16.us to 2014 and 15. The indications are that beyond that the spending
:03:16. > :03:21.challenges will continue and already some public bodies like
:03:21. > :03:25.Glasgow council are planning for significant reductions. The final
:03:25. > :03:32.point to make his we are only a third of the way into this round of
:03:32. > :03:37.spending cuts. There are still two- thirds of these spending cuts
:03:37. > :03:42.between now and 24 team to come. we have the correct quality of
:03:42. > :03:49.debate to allow Scotland to readjust given these new
:03:49. > :03:57.constraints? It is easy to kinds of three murder at politicians.
:03:57. > :04:03.Politics is often a contact sport, that is fine and I will not get
:04:03. > :04:06.dragged into that but the moves being made by the Labour Party in
:04:06. > :04:13.Scotland to at least start asking questions is a good thing. We need
:04:13. > :04:19.to do more of that. We need to do it as a society, can we afford the
:04:19. > :04:29.services which are free at the point of delivery given the tough
:04:29. > :04:32.members but are in the report. we? Can we afford it? It is a
:04:32. > :04:37.current and live debate at the moment whether the benefits that
:04:37. > :04:47.accrue during the good times of devolution can be afforded in the
:04:47. > :04:47.
:04:47. > :04:55.year is going ahead. OK, if you take a person in care and the free
:04:55. > :05:00.bus passes, when the schemes were set up, there was no hint given
:05:00. > :05:07.that the cost of those would be rising as quickly as they are now.
:05:07. > :05:17.And as we said in a report, the consistory travel scheme could cost
:05:17. > :05:17.
:05:17. > :05:25.not far short of half a billion pounds by Twenty20. Were the MS Ps
:05:25. > :05:32.aware of that? The answer is No 8. The affordability of some of this
:05:32. > :05:35.has to be questioned, every pound it goes on free services for bus
:05:35. > :05:41.passes for well off older people is a PoW and that is not there to do
:05:41. > :05:46.other things. We reported on health in the Community Transport which is
:05:46. > :05:51.really important for vulnerable people. Because of the council tax
:05:51. > :05:57.capping we saw those been cut back. People are getting more isolated in
:05:57. > :06:00.their homes. That means they have a poor quality of life and for the
:06:00. > :06:05.public sector it means they will be admitted to hospital more often
:06:05. > :06:09.because they cannot get to there care facilities. We need to find a
:06:09. > :06:17.place where we can talk about these things openly, tolerate differences
:06:17. > :06:20.of opinion being expressed on the reality out there and then the
:06:20. > :06:27.politicians can absorb the information and take it forward to
:06:27. > :06:29.develop policy. Did you ask -- as Auditor-General have all the
:06:29. > :06:37.information to see if the large amounts of public money would be
:06:37. > :06:41.well spent in Scotland? The short answer is No. For all of my time as
:06:41. > :06:46.Auditor-General, I was a voice arguing for the urgent need to
:06:46. > :06:51.improve information about costs, volume of service and the quality
:06:51. > :06:56.of service because in so much of the public sector it was not there.
:06:56. > :07:00.I am not picking on the orthopaedic surgeons but it is an area we
:07:00. > :07:06.looked at. We did a report on orthopaedic surgery, the standards
:07:06. > :07:12.of performance in care were high, let's emphasise that. Over 10 years,
:07:12. > :07:20.there was a 70% increase in resources after inflation. But we
:07:20. > :07:24.found a much smaller increase in the activity levels coming through
:07:24. > :07:28.the Orthopaedic speciality. We simply cannot afford to not have
:07:28. > :07:32.the answers to these questions given the challenges ahead. I could
:07:32. > :07:37.repeat that story across large parts of the public sector. It's a
:07:37. > :07:41.serious issue. If we can't tell how well public money is being spent,
:07:41. > :07:46.billions of pounds, had we fix that, what is your big idea for allowing
:07:46. > :07:51.the public who pay taxes to know the money is well spent? There is
:07:51. > :07:58.no silver bullet or Big Idea. There are some things we can do. The
:07:58. > :08:04.first thing we can do is within the parliament find a space to have a
:08:04. > :08:08.debate which is balanced with the debate on independence. I recognise
:08:08. > :08:11.and respect it's a big issue for the government and Scottish society.
:08:11. > :08:18.Somehow we have to find the space to talk about these are tough
:08:18. > :08:22.issues which matter because if the public services cannot continue to
:08:22. > :08:32.deliver to the standard we expect then people will suffer, the
:08:32. > :08:36.elderly and vulnerable. One proposal I am making, and I have
:08:36. > :08:42.taught to people I know about this, people whose opinions I respect,
:08:42. > :08:46.one proposal is that we need to create some kind of independent
:08:47. > :08:53.entity that can do good analysis to inform the debate. I am suggesting
:08:53. > :09:00.we should creates under the auspices of Parliament a commission
:09:00. > :09:05.on resources and performance in Scotland. People of real ability,
:09:05. > :09:10.staffed by economists and performance analysts to do work for
:09:10. > :09:13.Parliament on some of these tough issues. That was Robert Black
:09:14. > :09:16.speaking to me earlier. Edinburgh University was the only Scottish
:09:16. > :09:26.institution to improve its standing in the Times Higher Education World
:09:26. > :09:44.
:09:44. > :09:50.University Rankings. Something to The old Edinburgh Royal Infirmary
:09:50. > :09:54.has been replaced by this vast complex. 57% of the students that
:09:54. > :09:58.enrolled here last month were female. 140 years ago that would
:09:58. > :10:06.have been unthinkable. The small group of women attempted to study
:10:06. > :10:10.medicine at the institution and they faced ferocious opposition.
:10:10. > :10:15.The strongest opposition was from the institution itself. They felt
:10:15. > :10:19.that it was overcrowded and underpaid, so they felt that women
:10:19. > :10:24.adding to it would add to social and financial ruin for them. It was
:10:24. > :10:31.an economic argument. ringleader, feisty individual born
:10:31. > :10:35.in Hastings, Sophia Blake. In 1869 she was allowed to that regulate
:10:35. > :10:40.and begin her studies. The presence of a handful of female students had
:10:40. > :10:44.opened a can of worms. The women were not without some supporters.
:10:44. > :10:47.Some eminent surgeons and the Scotsman newspaper were among them.
:10:47. > :10:52.But most and the medical profession should open hostility, accusing
:10:52. > :10:55.them of trying to bring about financial and social ruin. The most
:10:55. > :11:03.bitter opposition came from their male counterparts and their own
:11:03. > :11:07.families. The reaction both of the body of medical students, who were
:11:07. > :11:12.very much against female medical students, possibly because they
:11:12. > :11:16.were very good these students. They were top of their class. The female
:11:16. > :11:21.students were used to being patronised, harassed and mocked.
:11:21. > :11:26.One afternoon in November 1870, they arrived at Surgeons Hall to a
:11:26. > :11:30.mob. The gates were slammed in their faces. A male student inside
:11:30. > :11:34.saw what was happening, rushed down and wrenched open the gates and
:11:34. > :11:41.ushered them inside. Later when their anatomy class finished, he
:11:41. > :11:46.and 20 others ushered them to safety through the howling crowd.
:11:46. > :11:50.Sophia was undaunted. Told she would not be allowed to graduate
:11:50. > :11:55.and therefore be unable to practise, she found at the hospital in London,
:11:55. > :12:02.completed her studies in Switzerland and in 1870 it was back
:12:02. > :12:05.in Edinburgh, setting up her own medical practice. -- 1878. It was
:12:05. > :12:09.another 15 years before the medical school was opened up to women.
:12:09. > :12:14.Maybe the thing that kept them going was that it fed their
:12:14. > :12:17.determination. If these were the meant that were going to become
:12:17. > :12:21.doctors and therefore treat women, then there was all the more reason
:12:21. > :12:25.for them to become doctors themselves. The campaign is now
:12:25. > :12:28.under way to get this group of pioneering women recognised by the
:12:28. > :12:32.university. I have raised this issue and written to the principle
:12:32. > :12:41.and the Senate. I think it is a good idea to consider this. It
:12:41. > :12:44.should be celebrated. These are very good role models. I think that
:12:44. > :12:51.role-model women in tertiary education medicine should be
:12:51. > :12:56.paramount. To correct an injustice, even though it is 140 years old,
:12:56. > :12:59.but they think it is important for medical students and medical
:12:59. > :13:07.practitioners now to realise the struggles that our predecessors
:13:07. > :13:12.went through to get us where we are. Today, the only official marking of
:13:12. > :13:14.this trailblazer is a plaque outside the medical school. The new
:13:14. > :13:17.intake of science and medical undergraduates take it for granted
:13:17. > :13:21.that they will have the same opportunities as their male
:13:21. > :13:25.counterparts. There is definitely that element of wanted to prove
:13:26. > :13:30.yourself. Females have that over males nowadays, just because of the
:13:30. > :13:34.history. I think it is inspiring. Good for them. It is really good
:13:34. > :13:44.that they did that and it has enabled us today to be able to come
:13:44. > :13:51.
:13:51. > :13:54.here as equals. A remarkable story of pioneering
:13:54. > :13:57.women in medicine. But 140 years later, it seems there are still
:13:57. > :13:59.glass roofs to be smashed. In the area of science, engineering and
:13:59. > :14:02.technology it's thought about 40 per cent of university students are
:14:02. > :14:05.female. Burrow down deeper, though, and you'll find that whereas
:14:05. > :14:08.biology is dominated by women, only 14 per cent of engineering students
:14:08. > :14:11.are female. And yesterday we were told that fewer than half of
:14:11. > :14:13.schools in England had any girl pupils sitting A-level physics. I'm
:14:13. > :14:17.joined now by Professor Christine Davies, a physicist at Glasgow
:14:17. > :14:21.University. When you look at your lecture hall,
:14:21. > :14:26.how many of those looking back at you are female? We have about 20%
:14:26. > :14:31.women doing physics. Somewhat better than engineering, but
:14:31. > :14:37.nowhere near as good as biology. presume you think that is not good
:14:37. > :14:42.enough. A no. We would like to increase that percentage. When you
:14:42. > :14:48.talk to those 20%, to get any idea of what could encourage more of
:14:48. > :14:51.their colleagues to go into physics? Of course there are all
:14:51. > :14:55.sorts of societal issues around subjects like physics and
:14:55. > :15:00.engineering. If we could encourage more girls to do the subjects at
:15:01. > :15:05.school, then that would create a bigger push at university and
:15:05. > :15:09.onwards. How do you do that? example, the Institute of Physics
:15:09. > :15:12.report yesterday showed that very few schools in England were getting
:15:12. > :15:16.girls into A-level physics, and one of the issues is the lack of
:15:16. > :15:19.specialist physics teachers in England. In Scotland we have a
:15:20. > :15:24.better situation. We have more specialist physics teachers and a
:15:24. > :15:26.higher proportion of girls doing physics at school. I don't think we
:15:26. > :15:31.can really congratulate ourselves that much because it does not in
:15:31. > :15:35.the end produce a higher proportion of gilts going through to physics.
:15:36. > :15:40.Is there something about physics as a discipline? Biology is doing
:15:40. > :15:43.better but they are both scientific subjects. Could there be something
:15:44. > :15:52.specific to visit that females in particular think means it is not
:15:52. > :15:56.for them? -- to physics? There are issues to do with role models, for
:15:57. > :16:00.example, the fact that there are so few women going through physics.
:16:00. > :16:05.That means girls do not have role models but in biology they have
:16:05. > :16:08.more. It is parental attitudes to some extent. Parents need to
:16:09. > :16:13.realise that these are good subjects for girls to do and they
:16:13. > :16:17.lead to good careers with high salaries. They should encourage
:16:17. > :16:24.their daughters to do these subjects. In terms of those that do
:16:24. > :16:30.go to university and study physics at these subjects, not all of them,
:16:30. > :16:34.in fact in some cases very few of them, actually continue into a
:16:34. > :16:40.career that is directly related to their degree. Is there some other
:16:40. > :16:50.problem beyond the university gates that needs to be addressed? Yes.
:16:50. > :16:50.
:16:51. > :16:54.Careers going on in physics are problematic. It seems to be the
:16:54. > :16:59.environment in companies that is not welcoming to women. What do you
:16:59. > :17:04.mean by the environment? It is male dominated? Women should not be
:17:04. > :17:13.physicists? Yes, the male-dominated environment that create attitudes
:17:13. > :17:15.that make it hard to succeed. One of the things that is a career in
:17:15. > :17:19.physics, a university department. But one of the things that we have
:17:19. > :17:23.been doing in Scotland is to work with physics departments and the
:17:23. > :17:28.Institute of Physics through the Juno programme, which is supposed
:17:28. > :17:32.to encourage departments to put the practice in place of hiring women.
:17:32. > :17:37.If you hire more women then you create a better atmosphere, but
:17:37. > :17:41.also the retention and promotion of women. The University of Glasgow
:17:41. > :17:47.department of physics is now a junior champion. We have things in
:17:47. > :17:51.place and we hope we can increase the number of staff that we have
:17:51. > :17:55.and encourage women into physics. Thank you for joining us. That is
:17:55. > :18:05.all but we have fall-out on Newsnight Scotland. You can catch
:18:05. > :18:09.
:18:09. > :18:13.Hello. Wet and windy for many of us overnight and that rain will be
:18:13. > :18:16.chased away quite quickly tomorrow morning but still quite blustery
:18:17. > :18:20.across the South East and East Anglia. The rain is never too far
:18:20. > :18:24.from the South coast but elsewhere it brightens up nicely. Some
:18:24. > :18:28.blustery showers in North West England. Most of the day will be
:18:28. > :18:36.dry across the Midlands and it will be drier and brighter across in
:18:36. > :18:40.East Anglia after a damp start. The wet weather will pushed into
:18:40. > :18:44.southern areas and into the South West through the afternoon and the
:18:44. > :18:50.early evening. With heavy downpours tonight, that extra rain could
:18:50. > :18:53.cause some problems. In Wales it will be dry but with lots of cloud.
:18:53. > :18:59.In Northern Ireland there will be blustery showers but the winds not
:18:59. > :19:04.as strong as today in western Scotland but a scattering of share
:19:04. > :19:09.was as well. The outlook will be showers in the Far North East on
:19:09. > :19:12.Saturday but over all, there will be some fine autumn weather. There
:19:12. > :19:17.will be a chill in the air and some mist and fog, but expects any
:19:17. > :19:25.spells for the majority. In southern counties of England on