:00:15. > :00:19.Tonight on Newsnight Scotland: It's a deal - well, almost. David
:00:19. > :00:22.Cameron and Alex Salmond are set to dot the Is and cross the Ts on a
:00:22. > :00:28.referendum agreement on Monday. We'll be live with the latest from
:00:28. > :00:30.Westminster. And it's all to do with spin, nifty
:00:30. > :00:34.footwork and quick changes of direction. Not Scottish country
:00:34. > :00:41.dancing - the great debate on universal benefits. John Swinney
:00:41. > :00:44.Good evening. It's emerged at Westminster tonight that a deal's
:00:44. > :00:47.been done between the UK and Scottish governments over the
:00:47. > :00:51.independence referendum. David Cameron and Alex Salmond will now
:00:51. > :00:58.meet in Edinburgh on Monday to sign off the deal. Our political
:00:59. > :01:02.correspondent Tim Reid joins us now from Westminster. What is
:01:02. > :01:07.happening? They have been expecting some kind
:01:07. > :01:10.of agreement to be reached before David Cameron and Alex Salmond need
:01:10. > :01:15.to sign of the referendum deal. There have been retracted their
:01:15. > :01:22.decisions between not just minister but also officials. They have been
:01:22. > :01:25.putting together a package of measures which we understand is
:01:25. > :01:30.being very close to a deal on a referendum. They have been
:01:30. > :01:37.difficulties along the way but we understand that a Alex Salmond and
:01:37. > :01:42.David Cameron will sign of this off in the coming days. Nicola Sturgeon
:01:42. > :01:45.and Michael Moore have met, two weeks ago, where they had a final
:01:45. > :01:50.set of negotiations. Today, they had a discussion by telephone and
:01:50. > :01:54.have agreed the basis of that referendum deal. It does... There
:01:54. > :01:58.are some difficulties. They still have to negotiate the electoral
:01:58. > :02:01.commission's role and for funding for the referendum but it seems
:02:01. > :02:07.there will be one question and a Scottish government has got its way,
:02:07. > :02:15.it seems, for 16 and 17 year-olds to be allowed to fade.
:02:15. > :02:19.There seems to be a different tone coming from a the Conservative
:02:19. > :02:23.conference, this is a just -- this is just a deal and the formalities
:02:23. > :02:26.remain. They are more cautious appear. The tone seems more
:02:26. > :02:30.measured. It the official statement we have
:02:30. > :02:33.from both governments force that they had been, again, good and
:02:33. > :02:38.substantial progress which is what we've had at each of the meetings
:02:38. > :02:42.between Michael Moore and Nicola Sturgeon. David Montale today said
:02:42. > :02:45.a deal had been reached. The Scottish government has said it
:02:45. > :02:48.hasn't been reached but I think they are talking about minor things
:02:48. > :02:54.and not the major deal itself which we fully expect to be signed on
:02:54. > :02:57.Monday. So, now we know. The referendum
:02:57. > :02:59.process has been agreed and ahead of us is two years of debate on
:03:00. > :03:03.policy, things like health, welfare, defence and, crucially, public
:03:03. > :03:05.spending. Indeed, for the last two weeks, the debate on spending
:03:05. > :03:08.priorities and universal benefits has rivalled the constitution as
:03:08. > :03:11.the big issue in Scottish politics. We'll be hearing the thoughts of
:03:11. > :03:21.the Finance Secretary John Swinney on that in a moment. But first,
:03:21. > :03:26.
:03:26. > :03:29.Catriona Renton on a fortnight of Today, we've been told Scottish
:03:29. > :03:33.country dancing cannot bring universal benefits. It's free, good
:03:33. > :03:38.for your mind and good for your body. It demands nifty footwork and
:03:38. > :03:42.at times, quick changes in direction. Well, Labour's Joe 1 --
:03:42. > :03:46.Joanne Lamont to go for a fortnight ago and although some thought she
:03:46. > :03:50.lost her footing, she started the debate on such things as a free bus
:03:50. > :03:57.passes, free prescriptions, free tuition fees and the council tax
:03:57. > :04:00.freeze. We have a free prescriptions and so one but in our
:04:00. > :04:04.communities, we know schools are under pressure, hospitals are under
:04:04. > :04:12.pressure, families are under pressure because they cannot get
:04:12. > :04:17.care for elderly people. That is unsustainable. Do so, has the tune
:04:17. > :04:24.changed? There has been a fair bit of to-ing and fro-ing about what
:04:24. > :04:29.this all means. We will protect the council tax freeze, free education,
:04:29. > :04:38.bus passes and elderly care, and health care free at the point of
:04:38. > :04:44.need. The we delivered many universal benefits. And different
:04:44. > :04:48.stance of the debate are all out of step with each other. -- sides.
:04:48. > :04:54.wonder autobus �9,000 tuition fees... And then the debate went
:04:54. > :04:58.up-tempo, resembling a bad tempered situation. She was deeply wrong to
:04:58. > :05:03.talk about is something for nothing society. That is exactly the
:05:03. > :05:06.language of the Tory party of 20 years ago. Who is paying the price
:05:06. > :05:14.for the benefits we are all getting currently from his spending
:05:14. > :05:18.choices? Unlike these dancers, we are used to politicians preferred
:05:18. > :05:22.the be stomping on top of each other but then the former Auditor
:05:22. > :05:25.General of Scotland what's to him. The affordability of some of this
:05:25. > :05:30.has to be questioned. We do need to Revisited and every pound that goes
:05:30. > :05:35.on free services for bus passes, for well-off older people, is it
:05:35. > :05:39.and it is not there to do other things. The Scottish Conservative
:05:39. > :05:44.leader says steps must be taken. don't particularly believe that
:05:44. > :05:47.most people across Scotland want to get free aspirin when they see
:05:47. > :05:50.people with rare cancers are not getting the drugs that you can get
:05:50. > :05:54.elsewhere and the rest of the country. I think what is
:05:54. > :05:59.encouraging is that we are at the start of the debate. In politics,
:05:59. > :06:03.timing is everything. Tonight, with it confirmed that a referendum deal
:06:03. > :06:09.is all but done, prepare to take your partners. But will the dance
:06:09. > :06:12.be a Highland Scottish or a Britannia to step?
:06:13. > :06:15.Just before we came on air, I spoke to the Finance Secretary, John
:06:15. > :06:18.Swinney about his spending policies and priorities. But first, I got
:06:18. > :06:25.his reaction to this evening's news from Wesminster that a referendum
:06:25. > :06:30.deal between both government is all but done. What the Secretary of
:06:30. > :06:36.State for Scotland agreed with Nicola Sturgeon this afternoon was
:06:36. > :06:39.some substantial progress being made between our two governments.
:06:39. > :06:43.Some further ground had to be covered before we could reach final
:06:43. > :06:48.agreement. I think undoubtedly, as they stick and today said, progress
:06:48. > :06:52.has been made but there is still some way to go to get to find a
:06:52. > :06:55.position on that. It has to be reached before the Prime Minister
:06:55. > :07:00.and First Minister can come to an agreement on this question.
:07:00. > :07:05.have you given up on the idea of a second question? The government has
:07:05. > :07:09.always made clear that we preferred to have a single question on
:07:09. > :07:12.whether Scott and should become an independent country. But we also
:07:12. > :07:20.recognised, and we've made this clear throughout our discussions on
:07:20. > :07:24.this question, that people in Scotland wanted to consider other
:07:24. > :07:27.options to strengthen the powers of the parliament, particularly in
:07:27. > :07:31.relation to financial powers within the United Kingdom. That is a
:07:31. > :07:35.question we consulted upon, when we discussed with various elements of
:07:35. > :07:38.civic life within Scotland. It has been an important of the
:07:38. > :07:41.discussions that we have been taking fought with the UK
:07:41. > :07:46.government. Throughout all this, our preference has been for to have
:07:46. > :07:52.a single question. OK. On this whole issue of public service
:07:52. > :07:58.reform, do you think Lamont was wrong to go for a public debate
:07:58. > :08:02.about universal benefits? There is always a debate to be had about the
:08:02. > :08:07.sustainability of the public finances and am engaged in that
:08:07. > :08:10.debate on a regular basis. I formulate proposals on an annual
:08:10. > :08:15.basis to put to Parliament, which essentially tests that very
:08:15. > :08:20.question about sustainability of the public finances. Where Lamont
:08:20. > :08:23.is wrong, is to advance that debate but not put forward some solutions.
:08:23. > :08:27.It is terribly easy to say, we should have this debate and have an
:08:27. > :08:31.honest debate and all the rest of it, but not to put any choices or
:08:31. > :08:34.preferences for it, or any idea about how you might make the
:08:34. > :08:38.finances sustainable is a wholly wrong approach to take. It is not
:08:38. > :08:43.the approach the Scottish government takes because we've put
:08:43. > :08:46.forward since 2007 / 2080 a balanced budget which makes
:08:46. > :08:51.financial provision for the scissors of Scotland. You're making
:08:51. > :08:56.your own choices in doing that. That's absolutely mad point. I'm
:08:56. > :09:01.making my choice is on an annual basis. For there to be an honest
:09:01. > :09:05.debate from the Labour Party, the Labour Party should also advance
:09:05. > :09:10.their choices and so far, I have been unable to see... Well, they
:09:10. > :09:13.have not made any choices. They said we should have a debate. They
:09:13. > :09:16.contribute nothing to the process. What was the basis for you decided
:09:16. > :09:23.not to challenge any of the universal benefits that are under
:09:23. > :09:27.your control and use them to fund, for example, more money for further
:09:27. > :09:32.education, where there are 80,000 fewer students than there were two
:09:32. > :09:35.years ago? If you take a further education college provision, the
:09:35. > :09:40.government committed to maintaining full-time equivalent student
:09:40. > :09:44.numbers at about 116,000 places. That is exactly what we have done.
:09:44. > :09:49.In our choices in relation to universal services, and a universal
:09:49. > :09:52.benefits are -- benefits, there is a strong argument in relation to
:09:52. > :09:57.the agenda the Government takes forward on to but to spend. For
:09:57. > :10:00.example, personal care for the elderly ensures that War Of Our
:10:00. > :10:05.elderly citizens can be supported in their own homes, where they get
:10:05. > :10:12.the best situation to have their care delivered. If they want not to
:10:13. > :10:22.be able to get that service, but had to have in hospital cot --,, it
:10:23. > :10:29.
:10:29. > :10:33.And ensure economists are telling you that in a time like this, the
:10:33. > :10:37.best thing the Government can do to promote economic growth, which you
:10:37. > :10:43.say is your top priority, is to get as many young people into education
:10:43. > :10:48.as possible. Yet each used to maintain a free bus passes for the
:10:48. > :10:54.over-sixties, free prescriptions for the Ultra Rich, and that is the
:10:54. > :10:57.choice but somehow that is more important than putting money into
:10:57. > :11:03.further education colleges so they do not have to cut the number of
:11:04. > :11:06.students by 80,000 and could have all the part time about his --
:11:06. > :11:10.jeans that they used to have. you are not following the point
:11:10. > :11:15.that I just made. The Government has put in place the funding to
:11:15. > :11:19.ensure that the commitments that were given have been delivered by
:11:19. > :11:22.the Scottish Government. That has been a continuous part of the
:11:22. > :11:26.support that you go into further education colleges. You're not
:11:26. > :11:31.denying there are 80,000 fewer students. What I am saying is that
:11:32. > :11:35.the commitment we put in place to guarantee continuity of full-time
:11:35. > :11:40.equivalent students numbers is exactly what the Government...
:11:40. > :11:44.is bureaucracy speak. Your own Government -- I doubt your own
:11:44. > :11:49.Government and say it is a good thing that there is 80,000 students
:11:49. > :11:53.-- fewer students. The point is that become -- maintained our
:11:53. > :11:57.commitments to make sure that and that it -- adequate number of
:11:57. > :12:02.student places were offered its throughout Scotland. Throughout the
:12:02. > :12:05.education system, a strong contribution of entrants into the
:12:05. > :12:09.further education system able to contribute to our economy. What the
:12:09. > :12:15.Government has got to do the strike a balance between... Just to get
:12:15. > :12:18.this clear, you were saying that a cut of 80,000 students is adequate?
:12:18. > :12:23.I am seeing that the commitments to put in place to support a
:12:23. > :12:26.continuous number of full time equivalent places is what the
:12:26. > :12:33.Government thinks is correct and appropriate as a contribution to
:12:33. > :12:39.the Scottish economy. So 80,000 fewer is correct? We are contained
:12:39. > :12:43.-- we have maintained our commitment to student numbers. We
:12:43. > :12:48.have put in place a whole load of other interventions to support
:12:48. > :12:56.people getting into the economy, such as more modern apprenticeships.
:12:56. > :13:02.The guarantee of an opportunity for all. The employer at recruitment
:13:02. > :13:05.initiative. These are all it -- all measures designed to get young
:13:05. > :13:10.people into the economy and to give them the opportunities that they
:13:10. > :13:13.should at. One of his choice you haven't made is that its flagship
:13:13. > :13:18.policy for why you want independence is that you want to
:13:18. > :13:24.cut business taxes in Scotland. Why had he not cut business taxes?
:13:24. > :13:28.course we have cut business taxes. You could business rates up.
:13:29. > :13:33.have a business tax regime that delivers reliefs to the value of
:13:33. > :13:39.�500 million per annum. But you promised for independence is not to
:13:39. > :13:43.have more relief for business tax, it is to cut it. Why do you not you
:13:43. > :13:50.-- use the powers you have got? Revenues from non-domestic rates
:13:50. > :13:53.have risen since you froze council tax. The Government's commitment on
:13:53. > :13:59.business rates is to make sure that Scotland has the most competitive
:13:59. > :14:04.rate of business rates and the most impressive rate its regime in the
:14:04. > :14:14.United Kingdom, and that is what we had done. We have cut his as rates.
:14:14. > :14:15.
:14:15. > :14:20.We have cut them for 65,000 small businesses in Scotland. So why have
:14:20. > :14:26.council tax revenue risen? For a whole variety of reasons. There is
:14:26. > :14:31.an inflation adjustment to be made. The Government has put in place
:14:31. > :14:35.cuts in business rates which have delivered a �500 million relief
:14:35. > :14:39.package in every single year of the five years of this business rates
:14:39. > :14:43.in the evaluation period. All these factors contribute to Scotland
:14:43. > :14:49.having the most competitive regime on business rates in the United
:14:49. > :14:56.Kingdom. Crawford Beveridge in his report that you commissioned, he
:14:56. > :14:59.agreed with John Lamont that things like tuition fees and concessionary
:14:59. > :15:08.travel and all the rest of it had to be looked at. Why was he wrong
:15:08. > :15:12.as well? He gave us a range of different options that we could
:15:12. > :15:22.take forward to make the public finances sustainable. They covered
:15:22. > :15:32.officiously, were paid constraint,... He suggested banning
:15:32. > :15:34.
:15:34. > :15:37.at council tax freeze. It suggested more options for reducing public
:15:37. > :15:40.expenditure it than we are required to take. So we took the various
:15:40. > :15:46.options that we thought should be implemented, such as the reduction
:15:46. > :15:49.of number of public bodies. Such as the efficiency agenda. We
:15:49. > :15:56.implemented all those provisions to make the public finances
:15:56. > :16:03.sustainable. Thank you very much. I am joined now by Professor John
:16:03. > :16:08.Kerchers of Strathclyde University. Do you have any polling evidence
:16:08. > :16:12.about this? We have some polling evidence about whether or not
:16:12. > :16:17.people support universal benefits and certainly it is not the case
:16:17. > :16:21.that people in Scotland are necessarily as enthusiastic about
:16:21. > :16:27.universal benefits as some commentators have been implying of
:16:27. > :16:34.the last two weeks. If ET the issue of three personal care, one of
:16:34. > :16:40.those secretary Scottish policies. Around 55 % or so of people are in
:16:40. > :16:45.favour of this. Around 40 % however think that actually some people
:16:45. > :16:49.should take -- a according to their means. Tuition fees, which even at
:16:49. > :16:56.the back of Dougall -- at the beginning of devolution were never
:16:56. > :16:58.as unpopular as most people think, there are more people in Scotland -
:16:58. > :17:06.- the number of people in Scotland to think that no student should pay
:17:06. > :17:11.tuition fees is down to 20 %. 20 %? Only 20 % say that no student
:17:11. > :17:15.at all should have to pay tuition fees. The vast majority of people
:17:15. > :17:19.say that some students should have to pay according to their means.
:17:19. > :17:25.Obviously, it depends and the level. There is other appalling evidence
:17:25. > :17:29.that came out before the election which suggests that 9,000 tuition
:17:29. > :17:36.fees where indeed an acceptable to the Scottish population, on the
:17:36. > :17:42.other hand, the idea of a �4,000 fee might well be acceptable. The
:17:42. > :17:49.truth is, we're not as wedded to the idea of universal benefits as
:17:50. > :17:52.we might think. The risk that she has taken in raising this issue is
:17:52. > :17:58.not quite as big as some people imagine. What but some of the other
:17:58. > :18:06.things, like bus passes? Last time this was asked, free bus passes
:18:06. > :18:10.were relatively popular, around 77 % in favour. On the other hand, if
:18:10. > :18:15.you asked people, should no one have to pay for a prescription that
:18:15. > :18:23.it can afford to pay for it? Again, or respect -- split around 50-50 on
:18:23. > :18:27.this issue. We're pretty much divided. What one needs to realise
:18:27. > :18:31.here is that the truth is that politicians balls on the left and
:18:31. > :18:35.the right are divided on this issue. There are some politicians on the
:18:35. > :18:40.left who feel that you should charge those who are better off for
:18:40. > :18:46.some kind of services, otherwise it is a subsidy to them, there are
:18:46. > :18:51.some on the left who say it is essential to a common citizenship.
:18:51. > :18:54.This exactly reflect public opinion. It is not the case that people that
:18:54. > :18:58.you might regard as being on the left have any clear consistent view
:18:58. > :19:03.on this, they are divided as much as anyone else. Do people actually
:19:03. > :19:07.vote on this? That again is also by no means clear. I have heard many
:19:07. > :19:12.people say that one of the reasons why the SNP won their first
:19:12. > :19:17.election is because of their commitment to not have tuition fees
:19:17. > :19:22.any more. The truth is, if you look at people's attitudes at the time
:19:22. > :19:26.on tuition fees, and look at how they voted, actually have the
:19:26. > :19:30.people who were in favour of tuition fees have voted for a party
:19:30. > :19:33.that did not want them and the other half voted for a party that
:19:34. > :19:41.was consistent with their views. The truth is that on these issues,
:19:41. > :19:45.it is not clear what people's attitudes -- that people's
:19:45. > :19:50.attitudes have been reflected in the votes. There for, there needs
:19:50. > :19:53.to be a measure of caution about assuming that this debate, but
:19:53. > :19:58.people's attitudes to whether there should have a should not be charges
:19:58. > :20:02.for some services, is necessarily going to be all that crucial in