:00:03. > :00:13.apparently willing to escalate that role in the hope of speeding the
:00:13. > :00:19.
:00:19. > :00:21.Tonight, it looks like a snap election in Catalonia next month
:00:21. > :00:27.will in effect turning to a referendum on independence from
:00:27. > :00:33.Spain. Other parallels with the situation here? If there are, do
:00:33. > :00:37.they favour the Scottish nationalists or their opponents?
:00:37. > :00:42.And there they ate the Scotland students heckle the Queen. The
:00:42. > :00:47.events at Stirling University 40 years ago that were shocking.
:00:47. > :00:52.As a collection called by the Catalan leader Artur Mas could
:00:52. > :00:54.determine the future of Spain as unified state. The effect of the
:00:55. > :00:57.banking collapse, bank failures, mass unemployment and the bail-out
:00:57. > :01:01.of the government by the European Union, are raised and social
:01:01. > :01:05.tensions in Spain to levels not that far from the fissures now
:01:05. > :01:10.running through Greek society. In Catalonia, itself now asking to be
:01:10. > :01:14.bailed out by their Spanish state, it had led to not just demands for
:01:14. > :01:19.growing independence but a mass movement in the street.
:01:19. > :01:22.It has been hot in Barcelona this week, even by Catalan standards.
:01:22. > :01:26.And the political temperature is rising as well. Pro independence
:01:26. > :01:31.sentiment has increased duty spent -- tension with the Spanish
:01:31. > :01:38.government and the economic crisis hitting Catalan's wallet. Many
:01:39. > :01:47.people have believed, I personally believed, that the Catalonia's are
:01:47. > :01:56.paying. We a bridge builders. And the president of Catalonia, I have
:01:56. > :02:04.been called a bridge builder between the Spain and Catalonia.
:02:04. > :02:14.Even they have been called, as a bowl Walker against it. Today that
:02:14. > :02:15.
:02:15. > :02:24.has changed. The position of Spain towards Catalonia, has become much
:02:24. > :02:30.more aggressive and negative. million people took to the streets
:02:30. > :02:33.of Barcelona last month to agitate for an independent Catalan state,
:02:33. > :02:38.with proceeded disrespect towards the Catalan language one of the
:02:38. > :02:44.moment motivating factors. They have been telling us that if you
:02:44. > :02:49.want to belong to Spain, you have there been less Catalan. So our
:02:49. > :02:53.answer is, understood, and coat -- OK, then we do know what the
:02:53. > :02:59.Spanish any more. Nationalists in both countries like to compare
:02:59. > :03:03.Scotland and Catalonia. Those who favour a union with Spain think it
:03:03. > :03:07.is invalid. TRANSLATION: Catalonia has formed part of Spain for more
:03:07. > :03:12.than 500 years. In Scotland, it was the product of the union between
:03:12. > :03:17.Scotland and the England with James the first. Spain was created
:03:17. > :03:20.differently, it has always been a union of territories. Catalan has
:03:20. > :03:26.been a part of Spain for their -- many years in a different way from
:03:26. > :03:29.Scotland and England. After the Catalan President's calls for third
:03:29. > :03:34.-- further care -- fiscal autonomy were vetoed by the Spanish
:03:34. > :03:39.government, he called snap elections. After that, the Catalan
:03:39. > :03:42.hopes to hold a referendum on independence. TRANSLATION: In the
:03:42. > :03:46.history of the last 300 years, the Spanish state has been
:03:46. > :03:50.characterised by having great difficulties in respecting the
:03:50. > :03:55.democratic will of the Catalan people. This house was closed. All
:03:55. > :04:00.the collective rights of the people of Catalonia were eliminated. Our
:04:00. > :04:05.courts were overruled, as was our Parliament. The current
:04:05. > :04:08.constitutional impasse can be dated back to Franca's victory in the
:04:08. > :04:12.Spanish Civil War. A constitution which was adopted when democracy
:04:12. > :04:15.was restored called upon the Spanish armed forces to the
:04:15. > :04:18.community of space. -- Spain. In the Spanish government's you, that
:04:18. > :04:22.would make any referendum on independence illegal, but in
:04:22. > :04:27.Barcelona, even those who want to see Catalonia stay in Spain think
:04:27. > :04:30.that has to change. We need to reform the constitution, that was
:04:30. > :04:37.very useful for the beginning of democracy but now will probably it
:04:37. > :04:44.is time to change the constitution. It is time to create a real federal
:04:44. > :04:53.Spanish state. And probably, this means at the end of the day, and
:04:53. > :04:58.also an agreement as we see it, in the UK case, we will end up with a
:04:58. > :05:03.-- the citizens saying exactly what they once. But if a referendum is
:05:03. > :05:06.not possible, what then? The government in Barcelona says it
:05:06. > :05:09.wants to me guested with Madrid. If they have negotiations fail,
:05:09. > :05:14.Catalan parliament will come under pressure to declare independence
:05:14. > :05:21.unilaterally. It is obvious that the break with the present
:05:21. > :05:28.legitimacy will be necessary in one way or another. Spain refuses to
:05:28. > :05:34.live up to its international commitments in the sense of, in the
:05:34. > :05:39.fact that in 1966 it signed the United Nations acknowledgement of
:05:39. > :05:45.the right of nations to self- determination. And yet, it does not
:05:45. > :05:49.live up to that commitment. Without a referendum, it's hard to tell
:05:49. > :05:53.just how deep or how wide support for independence really is. But if
:05:53. > :05:58.Catalonia did go for independence, it would be felt across Europe, and
:05:59. > :06:04.not least in Scotland. I am joined from Edinburgh by Alyn
:06:04. > :06:07.Smith, the SNP MEP, and by Maryshell Ramirez-Oya, the
:06:07. > :06:14.President of the cultural organisation Scotland Catalan
:06:14. > :06:19.sector. -- centre. Bring us up today, there is going to be an
:06:19. > :06:27.election next month. Is that election in effect going to be a
:06:27. > :06:30.sort of money referendum on independence? Well, I think the
:06:30. > :06:34.President of Catalonia, Artur Mas, and the other pro-independence
:06:34. > :06:40.parties will take a similar approach to the one that Alex
:06:40. > :06:44.Salmond took over the last Scottish elections. They ask Catalans to
:06:44. > :06:50.vote for them and create a political majority in parliament,
:06:50. > :06:55.and if this is the case, Artur Mas and the other pro independence
:06:55. > :07:00.groups have promised that they will hold a referendum. Howl in your
:07:00. > :07:05.view you get round this, there is a conflict of fright against right.
:07:05. > :07:08.On the one hand, as we had, some people say Spain as a country is
:07:08. > :07:12.not respecting its formal commitment to sell -- self-
:07:12. > :07:17.determination by refusing to allow the people of Catalonia to have a
:07:17. > :07:21.referendum. On the other hand, they can say, look, the constitution
:07:22. > :07:26.itself was within recent memory voted for and approved by the
:07:26. > :07:35.people of Spain, including the vast majority of the people of
:07:35. > :07:39.Catalonia? But things and time have changed. That constitution was used
:07:39. > :07:44.for on that time, at the transition period, it was approved under a
:07:44. > :07:49.different situation and different circumstances. Constitutions should
:07:49. > :07:53.not actually be prisons. They should be frames, flexible frames
:07:53. > :08:02.for the citizens of that state to live and felt comfortable. Its
:08:02. > :08:05.owner, I think most political parties, even some Spanish
:08:05. > :08:09.politicians think other Spanish politician -- constitution should
:08:09. > :08:13.change. Do you think it is because of this issue of not being allowed
:08:13. > :08:17.to have an referendum that the nationalist movement in Catalonia
:08:17. > :08:25.is turning rapidly into a movement on the streets, rather than just a
:08:25. > :08:27.political movement? De it is one of many. -- that is one of many. The
:08:27. > :08:31.legal issues, and some of the legal restrictions that are Catalan
:08:31. > :08:38.government has had over the last years especially in relation to the
:08:38. > :08:44.regional laws, is one. But also the economic crisis has hit very hard,
:08:44. > :08:49.many people and many Catalans. It is one of the factors, not the only
:08:49. > :08:52.one. Alyn Smith, DC any parallel? For the start, the Yes to
:08:52. > :08:58.Independent's campaign could only dream of getting a million and a
:08:58. > :09:01.half people out on the streets. They got 5000 of the day. Very
:09:01. > :09:07.committed people on the length and breadth of Scotland, young, or old,
:09:07. > :09:10.rich, poor, watching hopefully with a common and United aim. The people
:09:10. > :09:15.who were out in Barcelona, I think it was something like 8% of the
:09:15. > :09:19.entire population of Catalonia. talk as if this is something new.
:09:19. > :09:23.On the 11th September, Catalonia's National des, there has always been
:09:23. > :09:27.1 million people on the streets for the best part of 20 years. You guys
:09:27. > :09:30.are just catching up with this. The Catalans have always had a very
:09:30. > :09:36.strong Catalan identity. That is different to the political question,
:09:36. > :09:40.very different to the proposition facing us in Scotland. It is a
:09:41. > :09:44.quite dangerous logic. The fact that a start -- Scotland is having
:09:44. > :09:46.a constitutional discussion about the future, and Catalonia has
:09:46. > :09:50.questioned about the economy, relations with Madrid and elsewhere,
:09:50. > :10:00.does not mean they are linked. I do not see that many similarities in
:10:00. > :10:08.
:10:08. > :10:13.This is not some far continent. This is where a lot of people in
:10:13. > :10:15.Scotland go for their holidays. Of course it is going to affect the
:10:15. > :10:23.way they say their holiday -- independence.
:10:23. > :10:28.The closest revolution we have had is in Iceland. The most democratic
:10:28. > :10:34.country in the world had a people's revolution in a peaceful manner. A
:10:34. > :10:39.lot of country is have a lot of people saying, how on earth did we
:10:39. > :10:45.get here? How did the banks get away with that? Habibie governments
:10:45. > :10:55.let this happen? Is it working for us? -- How did the Government's let
:10:55. > :10:57.
:10:57. > :11:04.Do you believe, I know you personally support independence,
:11:04. > :11:09.but do you believe that the 1.5 million people who turned out the
:11:09. > :11:15.other week are Catalan nationalists, or they just primarily very angry
:11:15. > :11:18.at what is going on? It is difficult to know. It is
:11:18. > :11:26.difficult to translate what people say in the street and what they
:11:26. > :11:30.vote. Some of pain and -- opinion polls have shown there's a majority
:11:30. > :11:35.of Catalans who would vote for independence. A recent poll
:11:35. > :11:43.yesterday said that there were loads of Catalans in fable the
:11:43. > :11:48.referendum. That is already a starting point. People get excited
:11:48. > :11:52.about thinking how we can have another future.
:11:52. > :11:59.Presumably, Alan Smith, that is a parallel you would like to
:11:59. > :12:05.establish with Catalonia? If you get 53% in a poll favouring
:12:05. > :12:12.independence and you're getting 25% in the last one. This is energising
:12:12. > :12:16.for the people of Scotland. I think it is a prerequisite to our debate
:12:16. > :12:19.that a democracy of 5.5 million people will have a more direct
:12:19. > :12:25.democracy than having to send people down to Westminster for a
:12:25. > :12:28.system that I think it... And curious. Would you support
:12:28. > :12:31.demands for independence in Catalonia?
:12:31. > :12:38.That is not a matter for me. The people of Scotland are best placed
:12:38. > :12:48.to make a decision... It is a curious point. Socialists
:12:48. > :12:48.
:12:48. > :12:51.would say they what socialism. -- they want.
:12:51. > :12:56.We are used to the difference between what to say about your own
:12:56. > :13:01.country and what to say about other people's. It is not for me to say
:13:01. > :13:06.one thing or the other to the people of Catalonia.
:13:06. > :13:09.He we have to leave it there. Thank you to you both.
:13:09. > :13:12.Now, it was one of the most notorious incidents witnessed in
:13:12. > :13:15.Scotland in the 1970s. On 12th October 1972, 40 years ago tomorrow,
:13:15. > :13:17.the Queen came to Stirling to open the new university. What should
:13:17. > :13:20.have been a routine royal engagement turned into a worldwide
:13:20. > :13:23.news event, as Her Majesty was heckled by some students, or
:13:24. > :13:26."rowdies", as we called them then - one of them even swigging from a
:13:27. > :13:29.bottle of wine. It's difficult now to imagine the impact the incident
:13:29. > :13:32.had, especially on the reputation of the youthful university. Raymond
:13:32. > :13:42.Buchanan's been speaking to a couple of people who remember it
:13:42. > :13:50.
:13:51. > :13:58.The Queen was coming along here with a procession.
:13:58. > :14:06.The Jubilee is not the only royal anniversary this year.
:14:06. > :14:12.There's a surge of the crowd, everybody brewing. I think they
:14:12. > :14:18.never were cries of, go home, you German. -- there were cries.
:14:18. > :14:24.Ken Ferguson was becoming a student when the Queen came calling. Her
:14:24. > :14:31.Majesty may still remember the occasion. He certainly does.
:14:31. > :14:35.Stirling was a new-build University. There was a dearth of social space
:14:35. > :14:45.for students, which was a hot issue among the 2,000 students who were
:14:45. > :14:51.there. When the Queen was going to visit, the expense and the pomp and
:14:51. > :14:56.the clearing up and so on caused much resentment.
:14:56. > :15:01.These were the scenes that made Stirling famous... Or infamous. It
:15:01. > :15:09.turned what had been a respectable royal visit into a shambles.
:15:09. > :15:13.Students who had been staging a sit in made -- for an adjoining
:15:13. > :15:23.building and crowded round the Welsh party. The Queen, smilingly,
:15:23. > :15:27.
:15:27. > :15:37.People were appalled, partly because there was a lot of hysteria
:15:37. > :15:39.
:15:40. > :15:44.in the media. There's a famous story about somebody being hung up
:15:44. > :15:53.by an Australian journalist. The question to the student leader was
:15:53. > :16:02.what about these people doing this with cheap wine? And the person
:16:02. > :16:06.said, what do you mean cheap? It was �1 per bottle!
:16:06. > :16:10.The headlines made very uncomfortable reading for the
:16:10. > :16:16.university authorities. Stirling was branded a young university with
:16:16. > :16:21.attitude. I have never been in a university
:16:21. > :16:25.before that has presented the Queen. But some saw the incident with more
:16:25. > :16:30.humour than others. So ashamed were some students, they queued up to
:16:30. > :16:38.sign a petition to say sorry to the monarch. 24 of their colleagues
:16:38. > :16:45.were disciplined. A sociology student he was on the
:16:45. > :16:49.front pages of the world's papers is up for drinking for a bottle in
:16:49. > :16:54.the Queen's presence, which act was discourteous to the Queen and her
:16:54. > :17:01.party. There were some students who thought that others should be
:17:01. > :17:04.expelled. The University's procedures were untested because it
:17:04. > :17:14.was a young university. The whole thing dragged on and that lovely
:17:14. > :17:17.
:17:17. > :17:27.campers became split. -- campus. Did you shout? No, I did not.
:17:27. > :17:33.
:17:33. > :17:38.It was a place of intellectual The charges against the alleged
:17:38. > :17:44.ringleaders were finally dropped. So what was the fuss all about?
:17:44. > :17:51.think it just symbolised something that made people uneasy. The
:17:51. > :17:56.contest, the background was of the IRA bombing campaigns. Mass
:17:56. > :18:01.picketing was beginning. There was a huge trial going on in London of
:18:01. > :18:10.anarchists. Somehow, people felt that this symbolised a society that
:18:10. > :18:20.was beginning to break up. Some of the Stirling students will gather
:18:20. > :18:24.
:18:24. > :18:29.in the city this weekend to Now a quick look at tomorrow's