:00:14. > :00:19.The food companies will be watching Good evening and welcome to a
:00:19. > :00:22.special extended Newsnight Scotland. It is a historic day. The Prime
:00:22. > :00:25.Minister came to visit, the Edinburgh Agreement, as we are told
:00:25. > :00:28.me should call it, was signed, the starting gun on the referendum
:00:28. > :00:32.campaign was fired and half the UK's media descended on the capital.
:00:32. > :00:34.In a moment, I will be be trying to work out what is significant in the
:00:34. > :00:37.Agreement with pro-independence and pro-Union politicians, but first,
:00:37. > :00:47.today was so historic, they actually let me out of the the
:00:47. > :00:51.
:00:51. > :00:55.office. The two signatories warmed- up by sending out messages. They
:00:55. > :01:03.did not deserve to be called subliminal, because they were so
:01:03. > :01:08.obvious. David Cameron was at a naval dockyard in Rockside. Alex
:01:08. > :01:14.Salmond was at the nursery school. Three provision for as many as
:01:14. > :01:19.possible. They say it is the sort of thing the Labour Party will rip
:01:19. > :01:26.to shreds if you do not vote for independence. Back in Edinburgh,
:01:26. > :01:34.there was a growing sense of anticipation. But police trained to
:01:34. > :01:44.link arms and double cordons. It proved about as accurate as the Met
:01:44. > :01:52.Office storm warning that didn't come 25 years ago. More than one
:01:53. > :02:02.million people on the street. It is a big demonstration. We are really
:02:02. > :02:06.interested in this. We are not allowed to talk. We are very angry,
:02:06. > :02:13.because at least we would like to do this referendum and to this
:02:13. > :02:21.consultation to the people, but we are not allowed. We want to know
:02:21. > :02:26.about the issues and how the Scottish people seek independence
:02:26. > :02:35.and the future development of the country feels up and then there was
:02:35. > :02:40.a flurry of activity. Advent, the sign that even some of the most
:02:40. > :02:46.fervent of Scottish nationalists thought they would never see - the
:02:46. > :02:53.Prime Minister again to an independence referendum. But at
:02:53. > :03:03.least, it was not raining. Inside, there was an hour of chit-chat and
:03:03. > :03:05.
:03:05. > :03:12.then the historic Edinburgh Agreement signing. Afterwards,
:03:12. > :03:16.David Cameron declared himself satisfied. No one wants to go
:03:16. > :03:20.against the will of the people. Scotland voted for the Scottish
:03:20. > :03:26.National Party in the last election and therefore, it is quite right
:03:26. > :03:30.that the people here are given the choice. I am and passionate and
:03:30. > :03:37.believe that they will vote to keep the United Kingdom together. I
:03:37. > :03:41.think we are stronger together and savour together. They are in, he
:03:41. > :03:48.was off to London. Alex Salmond's special advisers had told him he
:03:48. > :03:57.should not look smug. A I think we will win by setting out the
:03:57. > :04:01.positive vision for poor countries. It is the future of the
:04:01. > :04:10.compassionate and prosperous Scotland in the future that will
:04:10. > :04:16.carry the day. The what would you say today to all the organisations
:04:16. > :04:21.and individuals who have submitted evidence to you consultation
:04:21. > :04:28.calling for adoption of law devolution and the are now seeing
:04:28. > :04:35.this is just effects. They are saying you are doing a deal on
:04:35. > :04:40.independence and ignoring that evidence. It is quite true we did
:04:40. > :04:50.not achieve the a objective of having more than one question on
:04:50. > :04:55.the ballot paper. In the terms of any negotiation, there has to be an
:04:55. > :05:00.element of compromise on both sides. The very substantial gain Scotland
:05:00. > :05:06.now has is that we have an agreed process for this referendum and
:05:06. > :05:14.respect for the outcome of it. I think that as an agreement worth
:05:14. > :05:19.having. It is a huge and substantial advance. But I can well
:05:19. > :05:26.understand why people may have wished to see a second question on
:05:26. > :05:31.the ballot paper. That was an argument that was not foreclosed on
:05:31. > :05:37.by the Scottish Parliament, but by the Westminster government. My
:05:37. > :05:41.first job was to see that an agreement could be put together so
:05:41. > :05:48.that the independence referendum could be had. That is a massive
:05:48. > :05:56.game. A outside, I asked people why this great event that led to a
:05:56. > :06:01.crowd of almost nobody. It must be to do with the security. There it's
:06:01. > :06:05.always security when the Prime Minister comes to town. If they
:06:05. > :06:11.anyone is interested, they could what to that barrier. There is for
:06:11. > :06:16.people there. I think it is not about people going to the
:06:16. > :06:20.politicians, but the politicians going out into the community and
:06:20. > :06:26.having conversations. But surely you think some of the people would
:06:26. > :06:31.be interested. Surely even a couple of hundred people? He is, I think
:06:32. > :06:35.they are interested. People have genuine questions about the process
:06:35. > :06:39.and how they can take part in it and how it will affect them and
:06:39. > :06:44.their communities. These conversations may be happening.
:06:44. > :06:51.They may not be happening outside here, but they are happening.
:06:51. > :06:55.fairness, there was five people up there, but they went away. I to not
:06:55. > :07:02.think we should expect people to come and see as an immediate
:07:02. > :07:06.standing outside St Andrews House. It is already happening outside
:07:06. > :07:14.inside community halls and everywhere around Scotland. I do
:07:14. > :07:20.not think politicians and the media should expect poll the public to
:07:20. > :07:26.come to them. The crowd did reach 13 at one point. Maybe this has
:07:26. > :07:32.been her story and the making, but it seemed rather peculiar. There is
:07:32. > :07:42.a huge media circus here. It is the sort of coverage you would expect
:07:42. > :07:46.for a small war. Everyone involved said what you expected them to say.
:07:46. > :07:52.But at least the sun is still shining.
:07:52. > :07:54.My colleague Brian Taylor has been I am joined in the studio now by
:07:54. > :07:57.the Scottish Conservatives' leader Ruth Davidson, Labour's Jackie
:07:57. > :07:58.Baille, the local government minister Derek Mackay and the
:07:58. > :08:01.leader of the Scottish Greens, Patrick Harvie.
:08:01. > :08:08.I also have with me Professor John Curtice of Strathclyde University,
:08:08. > :08:13.to inject some sense into proceedings. Derek, I was very
:08:13. > :08:23.struck that he made great play of the last paragraph of this
:08:23. > :08:25.
:08:25. > :08:30.paragraph, Alex Salmond. Why is he sought exercised about this. No one
:08:30. > :08:32.in his government ever suggested they would not respect the outcome.
:08:32. > :08:39.Bath think there was speculation that the British government would
:08:39. > :08:49.make as difficult as possible to attain the referendum and have the
:08:49. > :08:49.
:08:49. > :08:55.decent debate around us. What Alex Salmond is seen is that no matter
:08:55. > :09:00.what the manner of the outcome is, it will be respected. Was there any
:09:00. > :09:06.suggestion a suspicion that the British government would then try
:09:06. > :09:13.to sabotage it? There was not so long ago that the voices were seen
:09:13. > :09:19.the referendum should be controlled by Westminster. This is the
:09:19. > :09:24.historic mandate achieved to date. I think it is significant to say
:09:24. > :09:29.that not only will the United Kingdom Government respect the
:09:29. > :09:37.right to hold the referendum, they will respect the result at work
:09:37. > :09:47.constructively, regardless of the outcome. It is significant. Why did
:09:47. > :09:47.
:09:47. > :09:51.the Conservatives allowed Alex Salmond to turn this this into a
:09:51. > :10:01.state it occasion, as that as if they were signing the treaty of
:10:01. > :10:05.Versailles? If we pick up on what Derek was saying, I will answer
:10:05. > :10:13.your question any second. The Scottish government has to also
:10:13. > :10:18.abide by this. They cannot say a big boy did it and then ran away.
:10:18. > :10:28.Alex Salmond signed this so that he cannot see in two years' time, if
:10:28. > :10:33.
:10:33. > :10:42.he loses, when he loses, got Macro to go back to the game at question
:10:42. > :10:50.that I ask, why did he turn this into some big state occasion?
:10:50. > :10:57.was marked by the signing of an agreement to that effect. The power
:10:57. > :11:04.will now be passed to the Scottish Parliament. If we on where to
:11:04. > :11:10.imagine the utterly implausible, let us just say that Alex Salmond
:11:10. > :11:17.was Mark use of the second question was a ploy to using negotiations,
:11:17. > :11:22.it worked fantastically well. was a fantastic Light if that was
:11:22. > :11:29.the case. He led many people up to the top of the hill and then he
:11:29. > :11:33.abandoned them. It was clear he wanted the second question. He was
:11:33. > :11:42.not certain he could win the independence debate and wanted to
:11:42. > :11:49.muddy the water. I think we have made progress today. I think people
:11:49. > :11:56.can now move away about the process on to the substance of the argument.
:11:56. > :12:01.In your view, do you find it normal or extraordinary that made such a
:12:02. > :12:08.fuss about this consultation for the referendum, that a Scottish
:12:08. > :12:14.government has just done a deal that we still do not know what was
:12:14. > :12:17.in the consultation that was initially sent to government? The
:12:17. > :12:23.bad think it would certainly be better if that had been published
:12:23. > :12:33.before this. I am not speech useless surprise, but I am
:12:33. > :12:34.
:12:34. > :12:40.disappointed. Let us remember, the opportunity to have aged airlock
:12:40. > :12:50.open process, with civic Scotland in the driving seat, was missed.
:12:50. > :12:52.
:12:52. > :13:00.That was it years ago. The both sides are clearly built in their
:13:00. > :13:05.own outcome and it came across as a political stitch-up, which is what
:13:05. > :13:15.this also is. I am not surprised. But here we are now, we are going
:13:15. > :13:28.
:13:28. > :13:38.to have a referendum, which all At least on Nicky marriage question,
:13:38. > :13:39.
:13:39. > :13:47.new waited until it was published before or you announced it -- same-
:13:47. > :13:51.sex marriage. This is about asking the opinions on the referendum,
:13:51. > :14:01.that will then inform the Bill which will make its way through the
:14:01. > :14:02.
:14:02. > :14:08.Scottish Parliament. We should all long have said about the
:14:08. > :14:12.consultation, it is just being used to. The SNP government made it
:14:12. > :14:17.perfectly clear that we were open to a second question and further
:14:17. > :14:21.powers being granted to Scotland people did not choose independence.
:14:21. > :14:27.But it is no surprise that independence for Scotland is our
:14:27. > :14:33.first preference. It is not the Scottish Government but said no to
:14:33. > :14:38.devolution max, it is the British government. You cannot tell me what
:14:38. > :14:41.your own consultation says? I have already told you, I do not have
:14:41. > :14:46.sight of the analysis of the consultation, that is still under
:14:47. > :14:53.way. What we have achieved as a mandate to pick a question to the
:14:53. > :14:59.people of Scotland on independence, and that was our objective. 16 and
:14:59. > :15:03.17-year-olds will be voting. Can you, in a way that we will all
:15:03. > :15:08.understand, explain why it is that it the Scottish government has
:15:08. > :15:13.control over the register of 16 and 17-year-olds who can vote as
:15:13. > :15:17.opposed to Westminster, that means that I think more 16 and 17-year-
:15:17. > :15:25.olds can boat? The agreement that has been signed today does not make
:15:25. > :15:29.it clear how it will be achieved. The UK government has essentially
:15:29. > :15:33.said to the Scottish Government, you can enfranchise them if you
:15:33. > :15:43.want to, but there's nothing explaining how that will be made
:15:43. > :15:46.
:15:47. > :15:56.possible. Given current law, it would be difficult to get anyone on
:15:56. > :16:03.the registration -- on the register he were less than 16 3/4. We will
:16:03. > :16:07.see what the Scottish Government are going to do about this. If they
:16:07. > :16:12.want all 16-year-olds to be enfranchised then they will have to
:16:12. > :16:22.introduce a separate registration process. Then we get into the nitty
:16:22. > :16:27.gritty, which says that the Scottish -- UK government wants to
:16:27. > :16:35.delay. There will be a certain amount of pressure on those
:16:35. > :16:44.responsible for compiling a register, and being asked to engage
:16:44. > :16:48.in another registration process. hope you all got that. That is very
:16:48. > :16:53.helpful. Where there is a well there is a way. We will find a way
:16:53. > :17:00.through this. Both Patrick and I were in a meeting earlier this year
:17:00. > :17:05.with the First Minister Alex Salmond, Johann Lamont, where Bruce
:17:05. > :17:09.Crawford and the first Minister brought officials to tell us that
:17:09. > :17:19.they knew full well that people under the ages of 16 and tenants
:17:19. > :17:20.
:17:20. > :17:24.would not be able to vote in the referendum. -- 16 and ten months.
:17:24. > :17:29.think they recognise there would be problems. I do not think they said
:17:29. > :17:35.it would not happen. Now that it is a done deal, due would accept that
:17:35. > :17:45.this is perfectly reasonable to give 16 and 17-year-olds the port?
:17:45. > :17:46.
:17:46. > :17:53.Absolutely. Why have you changed your mind? We have not, we just
:17:53. > :17:57.want consistency across the board. It is one thing to use it -- to
:17:57. > :18:02.pick 16 and 17-year-olds just for that purpose, but it is much more
:18:02. > :18:08.complex, as we have already heard, to actually deliver. There are
:18:08. > :18:13.serious child protection issues. You cannot publish the name and
:18:13. > :18:21.address of someone under the age of 16, a requirement of their
:18:21. > :18:24.electoral register. You are happy about this, Patrick? Very much so.
:18:24. > :18:28.Just because there are challenges is not a reason not to try. We must
:18:28. > :18:35.accept that there will be detailed questions, but let us give the
:18:35. > :18:39.government time to come up those answers. I am curious, endure
:18:39. > :18:42.analysis, if I am to ask you, on your side of the argument, what you
:18:42. > :18:48.think the weak spots are, the things that they really need to
:18:48. > :18:54.convince people of, what would you think the weak spots are? As far as
:18:54. > :19:04.the Yes side is an -- is concerned, there misfortune is that this is
:19:04. > :19:05.
:19:05. > :19:10.happening after the eurozone crisis. The SNP's policy for a long time
:19:10. > :19:20.would be that Scotland would remain independent within the eurozone. We
:19:20. > :19:21.
:19:21. > :19:27.have realised that it would take -- that a fiscal union with another
:19:27. > :19:31.country is difficult. For the No side, undoubtedly the risk they
:19:31. > :19:34.have taken through the UK government in not allowing a second
:19:34. > :19:38.question to be on the ballot paper is that one third of people are so
:19:38. > :19:42.in Scotland his first preferences for a more powerful Scottish
:19:42. > :19:48.parliament within the framework of the Union may now be wondering,
:19:48. > :19:55.well, what happens if we ought to know? Will the Unionist parties
:19:55. > :20:05.feel they're off the hook and that therefore I have to vote yes, I
:20:05. > :20:08.will there be some agreed plan? -- or will there be. Maybe that will
:20:08. > :20:12.give the opportunity to the Yes side to get more votes than it
:20:13. > :20:19.otherwise would have done. Ruth Davidson, how would you deal with
:20:19. > :20:21.that? It is slightly surreal that we're sitting here and we have just
:20:21. > :20:26.agreed to have a referendum on something that the polls showed
:20:26. > :20:28.that people do not want and we have just agreed to not have a
:20:28. > :20:33.referendum on something that the opinion polls show that people do
:20:33. > :20:39.want. First of all we have to talk about what is the status quo and
:20:39. > :20:43.what are more powers? Where to make clear to people that the powers
:20:43. > :20:46.that people have now in Scotland are not the powers the Scottish
:20:46. > :20:50.Parliament will have in the future and some things will not even been
:20:50. > :20:55.placed at 2016. What I have already said is that I believe in the
:20:55. > :21:01.Scotland Act, I believe in the powers that are coming this way,
:21:01. > :21:07.including a Scottish rate of income tax. But what is he about this act
:21:07. > :21:15.is that is enabling Act. It allows legislation to be passed without
:21:15. > :21:24.going through the UK Parliament. You do not need to vote for
:21:24. > :21:27.independence if you want more devolution because of what?
:21:27. > :21:36.Conservatives have delivered the Scotland Act, which has the biggest
:21:36. > :21:46.tonsure powers which have come to Scotland and the last 300 years --
:21:46. > :21:51.
:21:51. > :21:57.biggest selection of powers. On the monetary stuff, the SNP are all
:21:57. > :22:00.over the place. There is this view that we will have a monetary union
:22:00. > :22:05.and the Bank of England will be the lender of the last resort. Alex
:22:05. > :22:12.Salmond appeared to decide a few weeks ago that that was not there
:22:12. > :22:15.case at all. That is not the case at all, what most families will be
:22:15. > :22:23.discussing will not necessarily be the eurozone and Scotland's place
:22:23. > :22:28.in it, it will be what has independence mean for individuals,
:22:28. > :22:32.families and the country. That is immensely patron rising to say to
:22:32. > :22:35.the people of Scotland, do not worry you little heads about the
:22:35. > :22:39.eurozone crisis, just worry about the pound in your pocket. People
:22:39. > :22:42.care about their families and their own individual circumstances and
:22:42. > :22:48.they will think about what independence means for them and not
:22:48. > :22:52.just the country. If independence would make your family and your
:22:52. > :22:56.individual circumstances better off, actually a majority are more in
:22:56. > :22:59.favour of independence than against it. The circumstances for
:22:59. > :23:04.individuals and individual households, it does matter. We have
:23:04. > :23:08.not said a word about the question I have asked you. Am quite happy to
:23:08. > :23:13.say that at the moment Scotland has no lever of control over fiscal
:23:13. > :23:18.powers -- I am quite happy. Even after the transfer of powers from
:23:18. > :23:22.the Scotland Act, we will still be very limited and the powers that we
:23:22. > :23:25.have. With independence we would have fiscal autonomy, but within a
:23:25. > :23:30.monetary union, if the people Scotland want to stay within
:23:30. > :23:34.sterling the well and if ever a time is right to join the euro then
:23:34. > :23:39.they will. We do not have the opportunity to make that choice is
:23:39. > :23:47.part of the Union. A lot of people will say, if I cannot have more
:23:47. > :23:50.devilish and then -- if I cannot have more devolution and I will
:23:50. > :23:54.vote for independence. I think it is important we had a single
:23:54. > :23:57.question. People will be saying that we have been sold a pig in a
:23:57. > :24:02.poke. If we vote against independence then nothing will
:24:02. > :24:06.happen. That is where fundamentally disagree with you. Labour was the
:24:06. > :24:13.party of devolution that delivered the Scottish Parliament. I strongly
:24:13. > :24:18.believe that this is an evolving process and we have set up a
:24:18. > :24:25.process to examine what would be required to do a specific things in
:24:25. > :24:29.Scotland. That is to look at not only powers devolved from
:24:29. > :24:34.Westminster that to the Scottish Parliament, but also to local
:24:34. > :24:37.council as well. Are you willing to promise the people of Scotland the
:24:37. > :24:40.right to have a vote on these powers in exactly the same way that
:24:40. > :24:46.the SNP have promised the people of Scotland are right to vote on
:24:46. > :24:50.independence? We may not have the devolution max referendum and 2014,
:24:50. > :24:55.but is your party going to be willing to let people Scotland to
:24:55. > :25:01.choose on this issue if they decide they wish to do so? I think we will
:25:01. > :25:04.have Gen elections, Scottish party elections. There will be an
:25:04. > :25:10.opportunity for people to express their choice about devolution
:25:10. > :25:15.Scotland. I do not think it is necessary, I think there are other
:25:15. > :25:22.opportunities to do so. What we needed to set it quick clearly what
:25:22. > :25:29.we well in advance of a referendum on independence. You would not
:25:29. > :25:37.consider yourself to be a nationalist? No, I do not. Where
:25:37. > :25:44.does your voice get a hearing here? I have came late in -- you have
:25:44. > :25:53.kindly invited me on to express a view. I will express my view and
:25:53. > :25:57.currency. I do not believe that an assertion that we should have a
:25:57. > :26:02.monetary union with the UK is a long-term option. But I think that
:26:02. > :26:05.both sides, yes and No, have a difficulty with adversity. Both
:26:05. > :26:15.sides need to find a way to turn diversity into a strength rather
:26:15. > :26:16.
:26:16. > :26:23.than a weakness. I will not attack their -- the better together
:26:23. > :26:33.campaign on the basis there are different parties involved in it.
:26:33. > :26:33.
:26:33. > :26:36.Let us end on the opinion polls. Obviously the people in favour of
:26:36. > :26:41.independence believe that they can turn them round -- hope that they
:26:41. > :26:49.can turn them round. The Poles have been much the same about
:26:49. > :26:59.independence for 20 years. -- the opinion polls. Can we turn them
:26:59. > :27:00.
:27:00. > :27:05.round dramatically? You can in some referendums. It proved very easy to
:27:05. > :27:13.turn public opinion round in 2011. Because this has been a subject of
:27:13. > :27:18.debate for 40 years, and on travail proportion of the Scottish public
:27:18. > :27:22.have very firm views. -- none of trivial. There is that one third of
:27:22. > :27:29.people in the middle who want more power was a do not necessarily want
:27:29. > :27:36.independence, that opens up the prospect for movement. We will have
:27:36. > :27:46.to leave it there. I quickly cap tomorrow's front pages. Starting
:27:46. > :27:48.