:00:13. > :00:16.their help when we need them. Tonight on Newsnight Scotland:
:00:17. > :00:20.Almost 2,000 workers look set to lose their jobs at the Halls
:00:20. > :00:23.factory in West Lothian. But need it have happened? Was
:00:23. > :00:27.there really a viable offer to take over the plant and keep it running?
:00:27. > :00:37.Also tonight, in the very latest in the row over universal benefits the
:00:37. > :00:38.
:00:38. > :00:41.commentariat have taken to fighting among themselves. We'll watch.
:00:41. > :00:44.The loss of almost 2,000 jobs at Broxburn will give West Lothian an
:00:44. > :00:47.unemployment rate worse than the national average, in spite of being
:00:47. > :00:50.part of the travel-to-work area for Edinburgh. But need the closure
:00:51. > :00:56.have happened? A financial company which wanted to buy the business
:00:56. > :01:03.says it was not given a proper chance, as Jamie McIvor reports.
:01:03. > :01:07.For three months, the access hung over the Halls plant in Broxburn.
:01:07. > :01:13.It was warned it faced closure and start from politicians were stunned.
:01:13. > :01:17.I want help to keep the plant open. Nobody wants to see this place shut.
:01:17. > :01:23.The closure will be just before Christmas, so what would that do?
:01:23. > :01:30.Not much you can do. It is a great area and loads of people like
:01:30. > :01:35.myself have been here since they left school. 20-odd years. But the
:01:35. > :01:41.company's argument seems clear. have invested in people, resources
:01:41. > :01:48.and done everything we possibly could to make this a viable concern.
:01:48. > :01:56.We are currently losing �79,000 a day in the plant and it is no
:01:56. > :02:00.longer sustainable. The seemingly inevitable task force was set up by
:02:01. > :02:09.the Government and public agencies. Their aim, not only to help the
:02:09. > :02:11.staff, but to try to save the operation. I am encouraged that a
:02:11. > :02:17.number of points coming out have been able to deliver a better
:02:17. > :02:21.future for workforce of Halls of Broxburn. So it is in that analysis
:02:21. > :02:29.that Mr that interest lies and we will concentrate at efforts to
:02:29. > :02:36.ensure we deliver a better future for this plant. -- that most of our
:02:36. > :02:39.interest lies. I am very disappointed. Even with time when
:02:39. > :02:47.they are last week, there was still talk a buyer could be found for the
:02:47. > :02:51.site. Is there a credible buyer? If so, we will do everything to
:02:51. > :02:54.facilitate that. If not, we will have to let the workforce know what
:02:54. > :02:59.is happening. But it came to nothing. It looks like the plant
:02:59. > :03:03.will be gone within months. Today, one company said it had put
:03:03. > :03:13.together a seven-figure bids to buy the site and say three-quarters of
:03:13. > :03:14.
:03:14. > :03:21.the jobs. That was Graf Capital. It in -- it claims they never had any
:03:21. > :03:26.a view to saving the site. They would rather put 700 people on the
:03:26. > :03:29.dole queue than save their jobs? It doesn't make sense and it isn't
:03:29. > :03:36.fair. A large percentage of those jobs will be transferred to one of
:03:36. > :03:40.the factories elsewhere in the country and that is wholly unfair.
:03:40. > :03:46.They deny the claim and said the company were not credible bidders
:03:46. > :03:51.but it now seems certain 1,700 jobs will go. There may well be some
:03:51. > :03:56.small parts of the business that toss sold on later on but these
:03:56. > :04:00.will be small and it will not affect most of the employees at all.
:04:00. > :04:04.The implications of the closure may go well beyond the local economy.
:04:04. > :04:09.That is because the plant is the biggest pig processing plant in
:04:09. > :04:18.Scotland. Without it, there could be serious problems for many
:04:18. > :04:25.Scottish pig farmers. The latest abattoir capacity in Scotland means
:04:25. > :04:27.that there is less value to it. And there could be a change in the
:04:27. > :04:30.industry which leads to a more efficient supply chain.
:04:30. > :04:33.I'm joined now from Edinburgh by Fiona Hyslop MSP, who's been
:04:33. > :04:43.involved with the Halls of Broxburn task force, and who's here in her
:04:43. > :04:46.capacity as the local MSP. What do you make of these claims by this
:04:46. > :04:50.man from Graf Capital that they wanted to take over the plant and
:04:51. > :04:55.keep it going and yet they were not given a proper chance? I think
:04:55. > :05:00.there was a business to be have there. It is a good workforce and
:05:00. > :05:04.indeed the product itself had a good reception from the retailers
:05:04. > :05:09.and supermarkets. There was a business to be had by that and we
:05:09. > :05:14.know that from the taskforce. But I do think questions have to be asked.
:05:14. > :05:17.I am not convinced that the owner really wanted to sell. There were
:05:17. > :05:22.two bids on the table and I think they should have engaged more
:05:22. > :05:25.readily. My understanding from talking to the bidders is that the
:05:25. > :05:29.relationship or indeed engagement was very difficult indeed. And if
:05:29. > :05:34.the owner really wanted to sell this as a going concern they would
:05:34. > :05:40.have been far more proactive at an earlier stage. So why think they
:05:40. > :05:45.were thinking about things on a far more European level or a wider
:05:45. > :05:52.company-wide perspective and not for the 1,700 people in West
:05:52. > :05:56.Lothian. So you have some sympathy with Steve Green? I know there was
:05:56. > :06:01.a business to be had and I know the workforce were capable of
:06:01. > :06:06.improvements in the company and we saw that. We saw the Scottish
:06:06. > :06:09.manufacturing advisory service and their savings. The workforce knew
:06:09. > :06:12.what needed to be done to improve the factory so that was something
:06:12. > :06:18.that could and should have been done. I think the fact that the
:06:18. > :06:22.owners walked away without engaging says more about them as a company.
:06:22. > :06:26.If you are right, what would their motive be for not wanting to sell?
:06:26. > :06:33.Do you think they didn't want a competitor? Quite clearly, they
:06:33. > :06:37.want to make sure they can protect their own interests. They would not
:06:37. > :06:42.want see a competitor, and I think particularly the fact they wanting
:06:42. > :06:47.to close the abattoir down first, I think it is clear but they wanted
:06:47. > :06:53.to transfer the business down to Malton in England. You what on this
:06:53. > :06:58.task force that was trying to intervene in this. If you really
:06:58. > :07:01.believe that the owners were not at -- negotiating in good faith with
:07:01. > :07:08.these bidders, or is it not possible for you to intervene in
:07:08. > :07:13.some way in that process? -- was it not possible? The owners of the
:07:13. > :07:20.factory would have to make any decision. The task was, by the way,
:07:20. > :07:26.is still meeting and now we will be about recovery to Hearts support
:07:26. > :07:29.staff of 1,700 and stand by them. - - to help support. But we had it in
:07:29. > :07:39.good phrase to try to encourage them as far as possible to engage
:07:39. > :07:41.
:07:41. > :07:44.with the bidders. -- in good faith. But you are having to deal with the
:07:44. > :07:49.company who hold the cards at the end of the day, and unfortunately
:07:49. > :07:53.they have taken that decision. you just explain for those of us
:07:53. > :07:58.were not familiar with how this works why it was necessary to sell
:07:58. > :08:02.the business? The Scottish Government had offered to buy the
:08:02. > :08:07.plant and lease it back to offer money for capital investment. Why
:08:07. > :08:12.would it not have been possible for one of the two bidders to simply by
:08:12. > :08:19.the plant and set a big company to produce meat products from it? --
:08:19. > :08:24.buy the plant? The problem was the owners were not willing... So not
:08:24. > :08:31.even to the Scottish Government? have not had any movement from them
:08:31. > :08:35.in any shape or form. A very creative offer came from the
:08:35. > :08:40.Scottish Government. We put together a package but they walked
:08:40. > :08:44.away from it and they have walked away from two bids. But I didn't
:08:44. > :08:51.understand. So the Scottish Government was offering to buy the
:08:51. > :08:56.plant and they would not sell it to the government? The offer from the
:08:56. > :09:00.Scottish Government was to do a leaseback and other arrangements
:09:00. > :09:04.over a long-term period to get the security for that plant because it
:09:04. > :09:09.was so important to the workforce, the economy, and we stood by that
:09:09. > :09:13.but unfortunately they said no to that and have said no de two
:09:13. > :09:17.bidders. I do not know the details of the big we have always said any
:09:17. > :09:23.credible bidder had to be engaged with by the company but they have
:09:23. > :09:27.not engaged. I think my concern and I think many of the workforce's
:09:27. > :09:31.thinking is, did they ever want to engage in the workplace? We have
:09:31. > :09:38.put a lot of effort into engaging and now we have to put effort into
:09:38. > :09:41.the recovery of the workforce and the wider West Lothian economy.
:09:41. > :09:46.Now, three weeks ago tonight, the Labour leader Johann Lamont came on
:09:46. > :09:48.this programme and expanded on her new, big idea. She said we have to
:09:48. > :09:51.examine universal benefits like the council-tax freeze and free
:09:51. > :09:54.pensioner bus passes. She wanted to start a debate but her political
:09:54. > :09:57.opponents, the SNP, did what you'd expect political opponents to do.
:09:57. > :10:07.They called her a Tory. But what about the response of Scotland's
:10:07. > :10:08.
:10:08. > :10:12.chattering classes? Scotland cannot be the only something for nothing
:10:12. > :10:21.country in the world and I'd do not want the biggest tax breaks for the
:10:21. > :10:25.rich. As big ideas go, some would say it is quite small. On a par
:10:25. > :10:30.with setting up a welfare state or putting a man on the mood by the --
:10:30. > :10:35.on the moon by the end of the decade. He it is staggering that
:10:35. > :10:41.public sector expenditure makes up a full 50% of Scotland's GDP and
:10:41. > :10:45.only 12% of households are net contributors. Now, one member of
:10:45. > :10:48.the commentary at has taken both women to task for the use of
:10:48. > :10:56.language but he also has guns trained on his fellow doctors and
:10:56. > :11:01.columnists. Gerry, no stranger to this programme, points to the fact
:11:01. > :11:05.of debates being closed down before they started. What will they be
:11:05. > :11:10.offering the Scottish people come the next Scottish parliamentary
:11:11. > :11:17.election? Increasing council tax, taking away prescription charges
:11:17. > :11:27.and students having to pay �9,000 to go to university. He challenges
:11:27. > :11:58.
:11:58. > :12:08.There will never be a debate if there was always abuse started as
:12:08. > :12:09.
:12:09. > :12:11.soon as something is proposed. Well, here he is. I'm joined now by
:12:11. > :12:16.blogger Gerry Hassan, and in Edinburgh by the critic and
:12:16. > :12:26.commentator Joyce McMillan. You are accusing Joyce, amongst
:12:26. > :12:33.others, all of being a Conservative. For a start we will not play it as
:12:33. > :12:36.the person rather than the ball. What I am talking about is a
:12:36. > :12:42.consensus or a group thing all eight general feeling because there
:12:42. > :12:48.are exceptions to this. Scottish politics and culture are defined by
:12:48. > :12:51.what happened under Thatcherism and Tony Blair. Being simplistic, we're
:12:51. > :12:55.using those as ways of not thinking about the substances of the things
:12:56. > :12:58.that people care about. We are not talking about social justice or
:12:58. > :13:03.inequalities in Scotland, I am assuming that the debate that you
:13:03. > :13:08.were alluding to is that we are a more egalitarian society then
:13:09. > :13:14.England all all of the rest. That is not getting to the substance.
:13:14. > :13:18.Iain McWhirter's comments about tuition fees, nobody is proposing
:13:18. > :13:23.that in Scotland at the moment and he is using that to close down the
:13:23. > :13:28.debate that we have. What it Johanne Lamont is saying, would you
:13:28. > :13:31.agree with it or not, she is at least raising a genuine question.
:13:31. > :13:36.These questions are not being allowed to be raised because people
:13:36. > :13:41.like Iain MacWhirter and Joyce are writing articles saying it is
:13:41. > :13:45.appalling Thatcherism. Yes, it is more complicated than that. Those
:13:45. > :13:50.comments come from a culture that is referenced through our
:13:50. > :13:54.experience of Thatcherism and New Labour as an extension of that. It
:13:54. > :13:59.is an argument that we need to stop using those as ways of not thinking
:13:59. > :14:06.about situations. He does have a point, doesn't he? You suggested
:14:06. > :14:14.that Johann Lamont had joined the oppressive course of boss class
:14:14. > :14:18.miserable as them. That is not encouraging open debate. Well, I
:14:18. > :14:24.don't think what Johann Lamont said was really encouraging open debate.
:14:24. > :14:28.It is a poor do when the only... Jury is saying that we should have
:14:28. > :14:33.a more radical and open-minded debate about things but the truth
:14:33. > :14:38.is that that particular speech is not a good peg on which to hang the
:14:38. > :14:42.argument because all Johann Lamont was doing was buying into the kind
:14:42. > :14:50.of austerity mantra that all the least imaginative political parties
:14:50. > :14:54.in Europe currently... One of these objections is that this debate of
:14:54. > :14:59.the precision of public services and the reform of public services
:14:59. > :15:03.is a debate that is not being had under Scotland -- in Scotland under
:15:03. > :15:08.the current government or under the previous government, in the days
:15:08. > :15:12.when the economy was booming. It is not connected. It is not just about
:15:12. > :15:16.austerity but about how you get best value for the money you are
:15:16. > :15:19.paying for these things. understand that and I think Johann
:15:19. > :15:24.Lamont could have opened up the debate about universalism in
:15:24. > :15:27.Scotland and about specific benefits we have and about whether
:15:27. > :15:34.we can sustain them and whether we should sustain them and all the
:15:34. > :15:39.rest of that. She could easily have done that without using the phrases
:15:39. > :15:42.she used and without so clearly aligned the Labour Party in
:15:42. > :15:48.Scotland with those political parties across the whole of Europe.
:15:48. > :15:55.It is not just a British you -- it is not just the British BT should.
:15:55. > :15:59.The idea is that the of current crisis can be solved by inflicting
:15:59. > :16:07.austerity on certain classes and it is not right for Johann Lamont to
:16:07. > :16:13.join that Euros. Use said that the phrase about gaiety and courage of
:16:13. > :16:18.Alex Salmond was wish-fulfilment and you said it was testament to
:16:18. > :16:24.the desperation of some in these troubled times. I would agree with
:16:24. > :16:30.that. That is not very moderate, is it? It is also about parties like
:16:30. > :16:33.SNP and Labour being a bit tent who are in hock to corporate claptrap
:16:33. > :16:38.will have a social democracy. The issue that Joyce and I agree on and
:16:38. > :16:43.what matters is, what does Scotland stand for? It does not stand for
:16:43. > :16:50.being good at football. We think it is a socially justice -- a socially
:16:50. > :17:00.just Scotland. It we were independent we would be the 5th
:17:00. > :17:01.
:17:01. > :17:05.most summing country in the developed world. I am slightly
:17:05. > :17:07.curious. In one article you wrote this thing about the gaiety and
:17:07. > :17:13.carriage of Alex Salmond and how he was standing up for a positive
:17:13. > :17:16.vision of the future against neo- liberalism. A couple of months
:17:16. > :17:21.later in another article you appeared to suggest he had lost the
:17:21. > :17:24.argument and you said, and I quote, it is unlikely the SNP has the
:17:24. > :17:27.well-marshalled battery and ideological argument that would be
:17:27. > :17:33.necessary to fight its way out again and you suggest that Johann
:17:33. > :17:38.Lamont had won even though she was not meaning to. I must say I went
:17:38. > :17:43.into shock shortly after Johann Lamont's speech because of the
:17:43. > :17:48.level of support she seemed to enjoy from Conservative Scotland.
:17:48. > :17:54.That was a mistake on my part and I had forgotten how many people there
:17:54. > :17:59.were of a conservative and cautious mind in Scotland before the Tories
:17:59. > :18:02.moved so far right that they stopped voting for them. Johann
:18:02. > :18:07.Lamont in that speech could herself just to the right of the SNP and at
:18:07. > :18:10.the head of that body. There was a lot of Scottish opinion that
:18:10. > :18:14.thought that would be right and they could not afford all these
:18:14. > :18:19.nice things. I dispute that we cannot afford all these things.
:18:19. > :18:24.Alex Salmond is a very complex political figure. Gerry says the
:18:24. > :18:27.SNP is a big tent. The SNP have been courageous and right in
:18:27. > :18:32.defending some social democratic values which are not really any
:18:32. > :18:35.more expensive than at the supposedly more economic things
:18:35. > :18:39.that have been put to us other parties and at the same time he
:18:39. > :18:44.does tend to compromise too much with certain bigger corporate
:18:44. > :18:50.interests and all of the rest of it. He is a very complicated figure.
:18:50. > :18:55.The fact is I was shocked last week with the renovations at --
:18:55. > :18:58.revelations about his attempts to get help from Donald Trump and not
:18:58. > :19:01.enough was made of that story in the Scottish media and many more of
:19:01. > :19:06.those stories come at it will be very difficult to portray Alex
:19:06. > :19:12.Salmond as the kind of social democratic leader there has, needs.
:19:12. > :19:15.All right. Jerry, you are accusing joys of being conservative and she
:19:15. > :19:19.is accusing you of being conservative. There are a plethora
:19:19. > :19:24.of Conservatives at the moment. You trumpeted by same one of your
:19:24. > :19:31.article that there was a new branch of Tartan Tories and she was one of
:19:31. > :19:36.them. What I said was that the term Tartan Tory is being end insults in
:19:36. > :19:39.Scotland and by that logic those people would be Tartan Tories. In
:19:39. > :19:43.Scotland we invent pantomime villains and what the joys is
:19:43. > :19:46.missing is that we have to have choices and we are missing that in