:00:12. > :00:15.or we will not. If we do not, it could take much longer to resolve.
:00:15. > :00:18.Tonight on Newsnight Scotland: The government says it wants to improve
:00:18. > :00:21.the basic literacy and numeracy of trainee teachers. But why is there
:00:21. > :00:24.a problem in the first place? And will today's measures really
:00:24. > :00:27.address it? Also tonight, the Alex Salmond is
:00:27. > :00:31.now the longest serving First Minister. But can he make his main
:00:31. > :00:35.policy equally popular? Good evening. Are our teachers up
:00:35. > :00:37.to the job? The Scottish Government says yes - but how confident can
:00:38. > :00:40.they be when they've decided to test their literacy and numeracy
:00:41. > :00:50.skills? It's just one of a number of changes being proposed to
:00:51. > :00:54.
:00:54. > :00:58.improve the standard of teaching in schools. Laura Bicker reports.
:00:58. > :01:03.Scotland was once a world leader in education. Not any more. And there
:01:03. > :01:07.is a view that in order for those days to return, improvements must
:01:07. > :01:12.be made. So today, the Scottish government announced they would
:01:12. > :01:17.shake up teacher training. All prospective teachers will undergo
:01:17. > :01:21.literacy and numeracy tests. Masters level courses could also be
:01:21. > :01:29.on offer. And there will be a �3 million fund available to support
:01:29. > :01:34.higher quality learning a for teachers. Teachers who fail the
:01:34. > :01:39.tests at basic skills will be offered extra support during their
:01:39. > :01:42.training courses. And the Scottish government is also considering
:01:42. > :01:46.introducing a qualification for anyone who wants to be a head
:01:46. > :01:52.teacher, and it may become compulsory. These reforms are all
:01:52. > :01:55.in the wake of a report by a former education inspector. It is not
:01:55. > :02:00.about making teachers do anything, it is about the fact we have many
:02:01. > :02:04.teachers in Scotland to want to do extra courses, who want to do a
:02:04. > :02:09.master's course, about making sure they have the opportunity to do
:02:09. > :02:14.exactly that. Two years ago, we revealed that primary teachers have
:02:14. > :02:18.little confidence in their ability to teach certain subjects. Only 11%
:02:18. > :02:26.said they felt confident teaching chemistry, that fell to 10% for
:02:26. > :02:30.physics. Researchers at Dundee University found that two-thirds of
:02:30. > :02:35.them have failed to master the p 7 maths they were expected to teach,
:02:35. > :02:40.even though they were allowed an unlimited number of attempt to
:02:40. > :02:45.reach the mark. There are fears today's report will not go far
:02:45. > :02:52.enough to correct this. Some say part of the inspector's report has
:02:52. > :02:57.been ignored. One major thing that was absent is concentrating on the
:02:57. > :03:01.subject knowledge, the specialist knowledge in maths, language,
:03:01. > :03:05.science, that teachers need to have, particularly in primary school.
:03:06. > :03:10.That was a strong element of the report and it is just ignored, just
:03:10. > :03:17.passed over to the universities which is disappointing.
:03:17. > :03:22.ministers say they are working towards the future. Anyone can see
:03:22. > :03:25.that the changes taking place, particularly in the curriculum for
:03:25. > :03:30.excellence, are allowing teachers more freedom, allowing them to
:03:30. > :03:33.build on the skills that they have, and this is very much part of that.
:03:33. > :03:40.I believe this is allowing people to become even more confident about
:03:40. > :03:44.what they do. So far, some teachers seem to welcome the proposals.
:03:44. > :03:49.is very much up to the individual. I don't think the plans put forward
:03:49. > :03:54.are for every teacher to be up to Masters, I did think that is what
:03:54. > :03:57.they are saying, but it is to give people the opportunity to develop
:03:57. > :04:02.their own lifelong learning for their job and their career and to
:04:02. > :04:07.continue to enjoy their career. That has an impact obviously at
:04:07. > :04:11.university level, which is where a lot of it will be concentrated on.
:04:11. > :04:15.Possibly before coming into your teaching years, that you are
:04:15. > :04:20.already at a master's level. focus on the modern classroom has
:04:20. > :04:27.already been about -- so far been on class sizes. It seems now that
:04:27. > :04:31.literacy and numeracy levels in our schools will not only be for the
:04:31. > :04:33.pupils but by the teachers as well. I'm joined now by Edinburgh
:04:33. > :04:36.University's professor of Educational Policy, Lindsay
:04:36. > :04:42.Paterson, whom you saw in the film there. And here in Glasgow by Larry
:04:42. > :04:45.Flanagan, General Secretary of the teachers' union the EIS. People
:04:45. > :04:49.will be watching this and thinking it is somewhat alarming that we
:04:49. > :04:54.should need to test trainee teachers for basic literacy and
:04:54. > :04:59.numeracy. I think it is a fairly selective quotation from the
:04:59. > :05:04.recommendations. If you go back to the... Be your I detest them or you
:05:04. > :05:08.don't. If you go back to the original report, he indicated he
:05:08. > :05:15.didn't believe there was a widespread problem with literacy
:05:15. > :05:19.and numeracy in our schools. Now what has been put forward, firstly
:05:20. > :05:24.it is a raising of the entry qualifications for moving into
:05:24. > :05:28.teaching, which I think in itself will ensure basic competency in
:05:28. > :05:33.literacy and numeracy, and a support mechanism where problems
:05:33. > :05:39.identified for individuals on a course to provide some remedial
:05:39. > :05:42.support. We are not convinced of a need for that, but if it does allow
:05:42. > :05:47.otherwise potentially effective teachers to complete their studies,
:05:47. > :05:53.we would be prepared to look at it. Do you think this is a minor thing?
:05:53. > :05:58.A I don't at all. If you look at the statistics you summarised in
:05:58. > :06:04.your film, it indicates it is a problem, and it is reported by
:06:04. > :06:11.children -- teachers themselves. The report today glosses over all
:06:11. > :06:16.of that. There is not in fact any commitment commitment to raising
:06:16. > :06:23.the Standard, it is a report into another report, we don't know what
:06:23. > :06:26.the content of that is. Is that entirely fair? One of the issues
:06:26. > :06:31.that the double chen and report went on about is the idea that
:06:31. > :06:35.primary school teachers should not be able to get to where they are
:06:35. > :06:38.biting a Bachelor of Education degree. Today's report says that
:06:38. > :06:43.his recommendation that it should be phased out and that primary
:06:43. > :06:49.school teachers should have to do and academic degree, today's report
:06:49. > :06:53.claims that is already happening. The report says absolutely nothing
:06:53. > :06:56.about the curricular content of undergraduate teacher Education
:06:56. > :07:02.courses, but we don't have any published evidence as to whether
:07:02. > :07:06.that is going to bring about any real change. There are some very
:07:06. > :07:10.good new courses being proposed, but crucially for this report,
:07:10. > :07:15.there is no national picture, national standard. We need a lot
:07:15. > :07:19.more detail what is going to be in these courses. You wouldn't agree
:07:19. > :07:24.that these courses are being phased out? They are in name, but the
:07:24. > :07:30.question is, what is the real content, what is the academic
:07:30. > :07:35.rigour? What is the new academic rigour been introduced? Some new
:07:35. > :07:42.proposals are being introduced, but we don't have a systematic picture.
:07:42. > :07:46.Do you agree with that? I find these comments slightly strange, in
:07:46. > :07:52.that what the report recommends is a partnership approach and
:07:52. > :07:54.universities are very central to those partnerships. So the idea
:07:54. > :07:59.that the universities are not capable of developing for rigour
:07:59. > :08:05.required for these new courses seems to me somewhat contradictory.
:08:05. > :08:10.The report creates a framework... Is it a case as a matter of fact
:08:10. > :08:14.that most new entrants to primary teaching are now doing academic
:08:14. > :08:21.degrees which involve studying so did other than education?
:08:21. > :08:24.couldn't give you the actual fact. A would be surprised. The
:08:24. > :08:29.recommendations on normally coming to the 4th. A number of
:08:29. > :08:35.universities have started to develop new courses, I am not sure
:08:35. > :08:41.if the current intake are embarking on these courses. Would you agree
:08:41. > :08:45.that the principle as outlined by the report, that to be a primary
:08:45. > :08:49.school teacher you should know something more than...? I think
:08:49. > :08:54.there is a consensus around the fact that it will involve a certain
:08:54. > :08:57.discipline. I think the reference to a perception of people being
:08:57. > :09:05.under skilled in certain areas is precisely why these courses are
:09:05. > :09:09.being developed, but they do take time to materialise and bedding.
:09:09. > :09:12.you don't think there is any consistency in the way this is
:09:12. > :09:18.being done, what do you think should be done? What we need is
:09:18. > :09:22.some public debate about the content. The teachers agree with
:09:22. > :09:26.this idea that there should be more academic rigour, more attention to
:09:26. > :09:30.specialist subject, then this had been passed on to the universities
:09:31. > :09:36.without any public debate about what the standards should be. That
:09:36. > :09:40.may come in due course but we don't have that yet. We don't have the
:09:41. > :09:45.basis for confident that these proposals will be implemented.
:09:45. > :09:51.remind us the fact of what we are talking about. It was the case that
:09:51. > :09:55.you could do... You could become a primary teacher and really, you
:09:55. > :09:59.were being taught how to teach. The new system is, you would have a
:09:59. > :10:04.degree, like anyone else, you would specialise in certain things that
:10:04. > :10:13.are nothing to do with education? The criticism was that it didn't
:10:13. > :10:20.cover any particular discipline, to provide the specialist knowledge,
:10:21. > :10:25.that is what the new courses will address. That more in depth content
:10:25. > :10:30.in terms of subject disciplines. You think it is inconsistent the
:10:30. > :10:37.way this is being implemented? What about your idea of basic literacy
:10:37. > :10:41.and numeracy tests? You quoted that in terms of mathematical skills,
:10:41. > :10:46.this is urgently required. It will almost certainly be the case that
:10:46. > :10:49.these new tests will be set at far too low a level. The government
:10:49. > :10:57.suggests they will be roughly at the level of standard rate, that is
:10:57. > :11:04.not nearly enough. So that already is a rather disappointing element
:11:04. > :11:07.of this report. What would you say to that? I don't agree with him.
:11:07. > :11:15.Already, to access one of these courses you would need to have
:11:15. > :11:22.higher English and higher maths. thought you didn't? The vast
:11:22. > :11:27.majority of people teaching in primary schools don't have to have
:11:27. > :11:35.higher maths...? We are discussing the prim book for her to move
:11:35. > :11:40.things forward -- the framework. It will be at the level well beyond
:11:40. > :11:45.the equivalent of standard rate. If there is a further need, the
:11:45. > :11:49.evidence may be produced, we are unconvinced that is required.
:11:49. > :11:52.parents watching this, the fact is that if their children are at
:11:52. > :11:56.primary school, it is unlikely, from the timescales you were
:11:56. > :12:00.talking about, that this new refurbished teacher will be
:12:00. > :12:05.teaching their children. Presumably that is why there is this talk
:12:05. > :12:15.about literacy and numeracy tests and giving credit to teachers who
:12:15. > :12:19.
:12:20. > :12:28.I don't think that is what the report is saying. If you're saying
:12:28. > :12:33.that the maths isn't up to there, a lot of Premier teachers there?
:12:33. > :12:37.Lindsay is looking evidence from two years ago. Ream Donaldson does
:12:37. > :12:43.not believe it either. In his report he said there was no hard
:12:43. > :12:46.evidence on it. He did not see a major or significant problem but
:12:46. > :12:50.there was an impressionistic view that there was some need for some
:12:50. > :12:57.support for some individuals. If that is the case, we can look at
:12:57. > :13:02.that. We do have hard evidence that was quoted in that film. We also
:13:02. > :13:07.had evidence from around the world that teachers with a better at
:13:07. > :13:12.specialist subject skills are better teachers. That is an
:13:12. > :13:20.explanation of the rather mediocre performance of primary school
:13:20. > :13:26.teacher -- premier school education in Scotland. It seems plausible
:13:26. > :13:30.that that problem is the tip of subject knowledge of the teachers.
:13:30. > :13:37.Should all teachers be encouraged to do masters degrees? In principle
:13:37. > :13:41.we have no objection to a Master's level profession. The challenge is
:13:41. > :13:47.how you move from where we are to achieving that. In principle we
:13:47. > :13:51.support it. It is ironic that this proposal is coming from a
:13:51. > :13:56.Government he is doing away with the teacher programme which was the
:13:56. > :14:01.best attempt so far at achieving a masters level profession. But what
:14:01. > :14:07.we're prepared to do is engage with the Government taking idea forward.
:14:07. > :14:11.Is this a good idea? It depends what the courses on about. In the
:14:11. > :14:17.report it was shown that teachers should develop their subject skills
:14:17. > :14:22.after at their post. The Master's courses here a very bleak.
:14:22. > :14:28.Management and things can be important. -- very the week. There
:14:28. > :14:34.was no mention of the specialist subjects in the report.
:14:34. > :14:39.probably support what is being announced today, Larry Flanagan?
:14:39. > :14:44.Yes, one of the key issues is that the report allows the teacher trade
:14:44. > :14:48.union to be involved. There is a number of contested areas that
:14:48. > :14:54.still require further discussion. And you think it is irrelevant to
:14:54. > :14:58.the real problem? Does not relevant, I do not think it does any harm, it
:14:58. > :15:03.is just disappointing. It does not take us anywhere near it the
:15:03. > :15:06.welcome recommendations that were made two years ago. What
:15:06. > :15:12.recommendations that were actually in the report me to be brought what
:15:12. > :15:17.now? Much more stringent entry requirements. Some figures are
:15:17. > :15:24.being quoted but have not yet been published. Secondly, we need more
:15:24. > :15:28.specialist teaching. Third, the development of specialist skills
:15:28. > :15:32.after teachers around posts. And fourthly, it should be a
:15:32. > :15:40.partnership between universities and schools. This report is about
:15:40. > :15:43.universities and local authorities. It is bureaucratic. Presumably, you
:15:43. > :15:49.do not disagree with that. I would absolutely agree with the last.
:15:49. > :15:53.There. Universities and schools do need to work together. Teachers are
:15:53. > :15:58.not the problem at their part of the solution. The report as good as
:15:58. > :16:06.a framework to take forward key aspects where there is a consensus.
:16:06. > :16:09.Where there is not a consensus we need to have further discussion.
:16:09. > :16:14.The First Minister wrote a special record to date. Alex Salmond is the
:16:14. > :16:20.longest serving First Minister overtaking Jack McConnell. He has
:16:20. > :16:26.been has both at 2001 days. But it is estate that was the high point
:16:26. > :16:30.in his office post sofa. He was getting a deal to hold an
:16:30. > :16:35.independence referendum. I believe in the ability of persuasion on
:16:35. > :16:45.this island. But he will probably be getting used to electoral
:16:45. > :16:48.
:16:48. > :16:53.success. I heard a rumour. I think we won the election. May 2007 and
:16:53. > :16:58.day one of a minority Government as First Minister. Four years later he
:16:58. > :17:03.appeared to defy it electoral gravity as the SNP secured an
:17:03. > :17:11.outright majority. I heard another rumour. We have won another
:17:11. > :17:18.election. During his ascent six opposition leaders have fallen away.
:17:18. > :17:24.This is the 9th to take them on. There have been setbacks also.
:17:24. > :17:30.he sought advice from Scottish law officers in this matter? Yes.
:17:30. > :17:34.and what did they say? You can read that in the documents put forward.
:17:34. > :17:40.It shows memories of the other sides of his reputation, his
:17:40. > :17:46.critics say that you have to keep him at eye on him. Knows the chance
:17:46. > :17:50.that when she sees one. He is not known for his modesty, but Alex
:17:50. > :17:55.Salmond would acknowledge that he has not done it on his own. A team
:17:55. > :17:59.of confident ministers helps, as have some policies which have often
:17:59. > :18:04.proved popular. A milestone for the first minister, but milestones like
:18:04. > :18:07.this can become millstones. It is not always a good idea to remind
:18:07. > :18:14.the public how long you been doing a job.
:18:14. > :18:21.I am joined now it might David Torrance, Alex Salmond's biographer.
:18:21. > :18:25.It looked like his career was over for a while. Yes. He was the
:18:25. > :18:29.original combat kit in a Scottish context. Winnie keep up the
:18:29. > :18:35.leadership in at 2,000 he had already led the party for ten years.
:18:35. > :18:40.He has come back and led them for another eight. Why do you think he
:18:41. > :18:44.did by were? This is the perennial mystery of Scottish politics. As
:18:44. > :18:48.many no rumours abounded at a time with gambling debts and things like
:18:48. > :18:53.that. But no one has ever been able to pin down crucial evidence on
:18:53. > :18:57.that. His line at that time was that his political capital was
:18:57. > :19:00.spent, the media were tired of him and it was time for him to move on.
:19:00. > :19:10.Although that might seem a boring explanation I think it is the
:19:10. > :19:15.correct one. He has confounded his own expectations then. Absolutely.
:19:15. > :19:18.Alex Salmond, the key to his success is his ability to connect
:19:18. > :19:23.with the mainstream Scottish political opinion. Poll after poll
:19:23. > :19:27.shows that people believe that he stands up for Scotland. They might
:19:27. > :19:31.not know how, they might not know what it means, but they believe
:19:31. > :19:36.that he defence Scotland's interests. But events that within
:19:36. > :19:40.the United Kingdom, crucially. you think a broader reason is that
:19:40. > :19:44.the success of the SNP? It cannot just be Alex Salmond, although it
:19:44. > :19:48.is partly to do with him. When he was leader the first time round he
:19:48. > :19:52.did not get them anywhere. There must be something else going on.
:19:52. > :19:57.Yes, the first time round Alex Salmond did not have the devolution
:19:57. > :20:01.context which is crucial to the SNP's recent success. What Alex
:20:01. > :20:06.Salmond do it, and let us remembered that he started off as a
:20:06. > :20:12.left winger. But now we is an ideological mismatch combining what
:20:12. > :20:18.he sees as the popular elements of left, right and centre politics.
:20:18. > :20:24.His politics has always been to construct a tent for nationalism in
:20:24. > :20:28.Scotland and attract the widest possible support. That began to pay
:20:28. > :20:34.off in 2007 and paid up superbly last year. The issue for her now,
:20:34. > :20:38.the challenge, is it is one thing to get people to vote for you for a
:20:38. > :20:43.Government to run it at all it Scotland, it is another to get
:20:43. > :20:49.people to vote for independence. At least if you believe the polls, he
:20:49. > :20:52.has not had that much success. is the crucial separation. I think
:20:52. > :20:58.his achievements have been primarily electoral as first
:20:58. > :21:04.minister. And that is electoral in their context of the SNP. Those
:21:04. > :21:09.wins were not fantastic achievements. But he hasn't
:21:09. > :21:13.substantially shifted support for independence onwards. He has
:21:13. > :21:17.secured a referendum, but that does not in itself getting any further
:21:17. > :21:23.to convincing the majority of Scots that they should back independence.
:21:23. > :21:28.But you very much indeed. A quick look at tomorrow's papers.
:21:28. > :21:31.The do not know the result of the election, but the Times says it is
:21:31. > :21:36.the decision. The Independent says there might
:21:36. > :21:39.America chose its future. That is all for me tonight. We do